Dail Suspended - Debate and Voting

FreudianSlippers · 14-11-2014 4:41pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Her is what she asked Burton to do;

Burton evaded the request for whatever reason.

I'm sorry that's ridiculous. Burton had no ability to comply with the request and stated flat out that there would be clarity next week. This is ridiculous - you're upset because SF failed to coax Burton into another solo-run? :rolleyes:

Godge · 14-11-2014 4:48pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's an analogy.

If the answer had been that clear cut, I for one wouldn't be complaining about it nor would I be supporting what Mary Lou did - but Burton said nothing of the sort. The question was whether IW debt will be taken from wages and dole, the "answer" given was "we will be finalizing the package in relation to Irish water" essentially - no specific reference to whether that will include clarity on the deduction issue or not. Had Burton made this absolutely clear, there would have been no complaints.

I await eagerly the publication of said "package" to see whether it does indeed include any reference to how unpaid bills will be dealt with. Nothing I've heard so far indicates that it will - the "package" is about costs etc. If it will include such clarity, then great! Why was it so difficult for Burton to give a simple answer in this way?

Absolutely.

I can give a reasonable explanation. The issue is under consideration by cabinet so cabinet confidentiality rules apply. No decision has been made. Perhaps the question was raised and before deciding on it, legal advice was sought. If the legal advice says it is not possible, there is no point considering it etc. etc.

hatrickpatrick · 14-11-2014 4:55pm

Godge wrote: »

I can give a reasonable explanation. The issue is under consideration by cabinet so cabinet confidentiality rules apply. No decision has been made. Perhaps the question was raised and before deciding on it, legal advice was sought. If the legal advice says it is not possible, there is no point considering it etc. etc.

And this would have been a perfectly acceptable answer, had this been what Joan Burton said in the Dail, as opposed to the generic bilge we were instead subjected to.

To give you another analogy, I am reminded of trying to switch from NTL to Sky digital a couple of years ago. At the time, there had been controversy over E4's availability on Sky. Phoning Sky customer service, the following exchange took place:

"Hey, before I switch over I was just wondering, can you confirm whether or not E4 is available on Sky at the moment?"
"Our Digital TV package includes a whole range of incredible channels, including RTE, TV3, TG4, BBC 1 -"
*Hangs up impatiently and doesn't bother switching over*

Now my point here is that E4 could well have been available as part of the package I had been considering, but I'll never know one way or another because the eejit on the phone was incapable of giving a direct answer and I didn't have time for the rest of the BS.

FreudianSlippers · 14-11-2014 5:02pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And this would have been a perfectly acceptable answer, had this been what Joan Burton said in the Dail, as opposed to the generic bilge we were instead subjected to.

To give you another analogy, I am reminded of trying to switch from NTL to Sky digital a couple of years ago. At the time, there had been controversy over E4's availability on Sky. Phoning Sky customer service, the following exchange took place:

"Hey, before I switch over I was just wondering, can you confirm whether or not E4 is available on Sky at the moment?"
"Our Digital TV package includes a whole range of incredible channels, including RTE, TV3, TG4, BBC 1 -"
*Hangs up impatiently and doesn't bother switching over*

Now my point here is that E4 could well have been available as part of the package I had been considering, but I'll never know one way or another because the eejit on the phone was incapable of giving a direct answer and I didn't have time for the rest of the BS.

Do you deny that SF and all other people in that madhouse answer questions in the same round-about, back-slapping and infuriating manner?

hatrickpatrick · 14-11-2014 5:05pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Do you deny that SF and all other people in that madhouse answer questions in the same round-about, back-slapping and infuriating manner?

Absolutely not, and had any member of the house decided to make the same kind of stand Mary Lou has made this week at any time, I would be backing them 100%. I'd even go so far as to shake Alan Shatter's hand if he had made such a stand, such is my frustration with how the Dail is run - and you know how much that would pain me.

FreudianSlippers · 14-11-2014 5:09pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Absolutely not, and had any member of the house decided to make the same kind of stand Mary Lou has made this week at any time, I would be backing them 100%. I'd even go so far as to shake Alan Shatter's hand if he had made such a stand, such is my frustration with how the Dail is run - and you know how much that would pain me.

Ok, fine... can you also admit that it does look a bit convenient that MLMcD would decide to take a stand at a time of inconvenience for the party?

Dan_Solo · 14-11-2014 5:16pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Ok, fine... can you also admit that it does look a bit convenient that MLMcD would decide to take a stand at a time of inconvenience for the party?

Inconvenience? They are the most popular party in Ireland with the most popular leader.
Keep it coming would be more like it.

FreudianSlippers · 14-11-2014 5:19pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Inconvenience? They are the most popular party in Ireland with the most popular leader.
Keep it coming would be more like it.

Ok, by some polls they are - if they were that popular they'd be in government. Obviously, if they are riding as high as you claim, they will want to avoid any seriously negative press for as long as possible. Or do you think that if they get a high opinion poll they are just invincible forever?

Godge · 14-11-2014 5:48pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And this would have been a perfectly acceptable answer, had this been what Joan Burton said in the Dail, as opposed to the generic bilge we were instead subjected to.

To give you another analogy, I am reminded of trying to switch from NTL to Sky digital a couple of years ago. At the time, there had been controversy over E4's availability on Sky. Phoning Sky customer service, the following exchange took place:

"Hey, before I switch over I was just wondering, can you confirm whether or not E4 is available on Sky at the moment?"
"Our Digital TV package includes a whole range of incredible channels, including RTE, TV3, TG4, BBC 1 -"
*Hangs up impatiently and doesn't bother switching over*

Now my point here is that E4 could well have been available as part of the package I had been considering, but I'll never know one way or another because the eejit on the phone was incapable of giving a direct answer and I didn't have time for the rest of the BS.

But cabinet confidentiality rules as determined by the Supreme Court would not allow that amount of information.

As for the SKY example, SKY don't have to answer your question the way you want and Joan Burton doesn't have to answer Mary Lou's question the way you want.

She gave an answer. People don't like it, well the ballot box is the place to deal with that, not by breaking democratic rules as SF did.

Dan_Solo · 14-11-2014 5:57pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Ok, by some polls they are - if they were that popular they'd be in government. Obviously, if they are riding as high as you claim, they will want to avoid any seriously negative press for as long as possible. Or do you think that if they get a high opinion poll they are just invincible forever?

Well their current popularity can hardly get them into government in the absence of an election. I think that's assumed?
The thing is, this "negative press" appears to be coinciding with their rise in popularity. Either the golden circle parties are just slinging more mud than usual as they cack their collective pants while SF benefit from a backlash against policy, or the public is actually supporting SF more as they see straight through government spin and smear campaigning.

oscarBravo · 14-11-2014 7:56pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If he doesn't, a new standing order is required as a matter of urgency.

Why, because Mary Lou is running out of standing orders to ignore?

What's the point in having standing orders, when politicians are applauded for deciding that they don't apply to them?

hatrickpatrick · 14-11-2014 8:19pm

Godge wrote: »

But cabinet confidentiality rules as determined by the Supreme Court would not allow that amount of information.

And she could have stated this in the Dail, as opposed to spouting generic crap.

As for the SKY example, SKY don't have to answer your question the way you want and Joan Burton doesn't have to answer Mary Lou's question the way you want.

Of course not, but in the case of Sky it makes a mockery of customer service, and in the case of Joan Burton it makes a mockery of the Dail.

She gave an answer.

She did not. She was asked a question and she made an irrelevant statement in reply, not an "answer".

People don't like it, well the ballot box is the place to deal with that, not by breaking democratic rules as SF did.

And we all know how well that tends to work. It was Joan and her crew who promised a better kind of politics for Ireland, and they along with their coalition partners have utterly failed to deliver.

hatrickpatrick · 14-11-2014 8:20pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why, because Mary Lou is running out of standing orders to ignore?

What's the point in having standing orders, when politicians are applauded for deciding that they don't apply to them?

Because part of the role of a chairman is to ensure participants in a debate stay on topic and don't bullsh!t?

crusher000 · 15-11-2014 7:27am

Sinn Fein still making headlines in the Indo, closely followed by Roy Keane. Great how they can knock so much distance out of one group and knock so much out of a none event in which nobody was struck and the Garda are not investigating any wrong doing. I suppose thay have to fill the pages with something after the drop in advertising over the last few years.

Godge · 15-11-2014 12:05pm

crusher000 wrote: »

Sinn Fein still making headlines in the Indo, closely followed by Roy Keane. Great how they can knock so much distance out of one group and knock so much out of a none event in which nobody was struck and the Garda are not investigating any wrong doing. I suppose thay have to fill the pages with something after the drop in advertising over the last few years.

Excellent article from the Irish Times today.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/the-naked-face-of-sinn-f%C3%A9in-exposed-thanks-to-ma%C3%ADria-cahill-s-courage-1.2001616

Fred Swanson · 15-11-2014 12:16pm

This post has been deleted.

Dan_Solo · 15-11-2014 12:25pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Pity the Shinnerbots have poisoned the comments section already.

It's terrible alright that the goldencirclebot drones have their carefully planned smear bollix utterly destroyed by pesky facts and logic.
Poor dears.

Qualitymark · 15-11-2014 12:26pm

Funny thing is, Fine Gael were all about "Let's end Civil War politics" when they came in, but they're the worst offenders for using other parties' past to duck legitimate questions. And no, I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter.

Politics, the polity and general relationships between people and groups in Ireland have got increasingly nasty lately, with all this sneering about Blueshirts and Shinners and Scrotes and Scumbags and Parklife and so on. Is this really how we want to live together?

walshb · 15-11-2014 12:28pm

Godge wrote: »

Excellent article from the Irish Times today.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/the-naked-face-of-sinn-f%C3%A9in-exposed-thanks-to-ma%C3%ADria-cahill-s-courage-1.2001616

"Micheál Martin and some of his TDs have had regular runs-in with the Ceann Comhairle and the party voted with Sinn Féin against the expulsion of McDonald"

You couldn't trust bloody any of them....

Dan_Solo · 15-11-2014 12:46pm

I see lately that "Great article in X" just means "some baseless confirmation bias opinion piece I found that has zero facts to add to anything".

Little CuChulainn · 15-11-2014 2:38pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Did you see the Journal one with the poll? They were actually complaining that there was a bot being used to push the poll slightly against them. I think anyone who looks at the ratios of green thumbs to red thumbs on shinner posts can see what way the bot works.

Dan_Solo · 15-11-2014 2:45pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Did you see the Journal one with the poll? They were actually complaining that there was a bot being used to push the poll slightly against them. I think anyone who looks at the ratios of green thumbs to red thumbs on shinner posts can see what way the bot works.

Because goldencirclebots wouldn't know how to do that?

nice_guy80 · 15-11-2014 4:42pm

FG/Lab can do what they like, as they have a majority

enforced by the Ceann Comhairle

fergus1001 · 15-11-2014 5:37pm

walshb wrote: »

Right or wrong to remove shouldn't come into it. If it's in the law then it should be enforced. I was wondering it it is in the law that it should happen.

Like all those politicians who got a tax amnesty ? The laws of the land much like the laws of the Dail are fickle and applied where suits not when broken, the whip system in the Dail is a joke and I will only vote for a party with that specifically in their manifesto the next time around

fergus1001 · 15-11-2014 5:45pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I see lately that "Great article in X" just means "some baseless confirmation bias opinion piece I found that has zero facts to add to anything".

I agree, I'm not a shin bot but as Joan Burton would say "it has to be said" that Denis o briens media group are pulling out all the stops against them lately

People are baffled that they are pollin so high, well it's because everyone else on the opposition bar the independent s had a hand in where we are now and people are just sick of musical chairs in the Dail

I'll point out again im not a shinner I see in dependants (at least one in every electoral area) as a good counter ballance along with a functional opposition party

nuac · 15-11-2014 7:55pm

Mary Lou's carry-on with the Ceann Cóirle was to divert attention and try to regain some ground from the drubbing SF got in DÉ the previous day.

The Catholic Church did not succeed in distancing itself from child abuse by SF/IRA. Neither will SF

Dan_Solo · 15-11-2014 8:11pm

nuac wrote: »

Mary Lou's carry-on with the Ceann Cóirle was to divert attention and try to regain some ground from the drubbing SF got in DÉ the previous day.

The Catholic Church did not succeed in distancing itself from child abuse by SF/IRA. Neither will SF

The Catholic church is dying. SF are the most popular political entity in the land and getting more popular by the day.
Some analogy!

hatrickpatrick · 15-11-2014 9:47pm

As a matter of interest, if partisan party politics are left to one side for a moment, and regardless of which parties sit in which seats - do people not feel that the Ceann Comhairle should (emphasis on should, regardless of whether he or she currently has either the authority or the obligation) ensure that debates, including questions and answers, remain on topic?

renegademaster · 15-11-2014 10:20pm

the people are going to tear the dail apart!! way too late to be fixed or stopped now

expectationlost · 15-11-2014 10:58pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

As a matter of interest, if partisan party politics are left to one side for a moment, and regardless of which parties sit in which seats - do people not feel that the Ceann Comhairle should (emphasis on should, regardless of whether he or she currently has either the authority or the obligation) ensure that debates, including questions and answers, remain on topic?

apparently according to the rules he doesn't have to in "leaders questions" https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/532943970025091072

only in "parliamentary questions"

SO 40 Standard of Information provided in response to Parliamentary Questions
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/proceduraldocuments/mod16dec2011.doc Standing Orders amendment doc, read it in debates here http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/07/21/00017.asp

but as Catherine Murphy TD says the prinicipal of the rule should be enforced by the CC

Dail Suspended - Debate and Voting

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