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A discussion on the rules.

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    #1472
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The bank guarantee exists and some of those who advocated and signed it are still in government, PIRA do not exist anymore (both governments are happy with that consensus) therefore the term SF/IRA is redundant and is actually an unproven accusation when used on here.
    Would any other 'unproven accusation' be allowed by Mods?

    By the same token, there are members of the IRA in the Dail.


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    #1473
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    By the same token, there are members of the IRA in the Dail.

    I've made my point, I ain't getting on your certain train wreck.


  • Options
    #1474
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Within reason.

    As for SF/IRA, blueshirts, that type of stuff, I'd say again within reason! If somebody is doing it over and over to get a rise out of posters, that's low level trolling to me. Personally I wouldn't pay much heed to anybody posting such stuff, I can just imagine some Paisleyite keyboard warrior having a fit with rage typing it, but if it's disrupting a thread it would be dealt with.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #1475
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    K-9 wrote: »
    Within reason.

    The use of SF/IRA, while discussing the actions of SF now, is neither reasonable nor accurate.


  • Options
    #1476
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The use of SF/IRA, while discussing the actions of SF now, is neither reasonable nor accurate.

    Maybe not now, as in current affairs, but for some people the connection in recent times is relevant. If posters are discussing voting intentions or poll results, unfortunately yes, some will not vote for SF because of that. Same as FF and the guarantee etc., Labour being lefties and whatever other bugbears people have!

    An example is somebody bringing up Gilmores past from 40 years ago, or Kenny talking about property tax 20 years ago. I don't see any relevance in it but some people obviously do.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #1477
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    K-9 wrote: »
    Maybe not now, as in current affairs, but for some people the connection in recent times is relevant. If posters are discussing voting intentions or poll results, unfortunately yes, some will not vote for SF because of that. Same as FF and the guarantee etc., Labour being lefties and whatever other bugbears people have!

    An example is somebody bringing up Gilmores past from 40 years ago, or Kenny talking about property tax 20 years ago. I don't see any relevance in it but some people obviously do.

    I don't have any issue with individual people's past's being mentioned, I do have an issue though with the use of SF/IRA in a current affairs context.
    It is meant to be accusatory and derogatory and cutting it out would be very easy for Boards-Politics forum to do, as they do with any other accusatory and derogatory behaviour.


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    #1478
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I don't have any issue with individual people's past's being mentioned, I do have an issue though with the use of SF/IRA in a current affairs context.
    It is meant to be accusatory and derogatory and cutting it out would be very easy for Boards-Politics forum to do, as they do with any other accusatory and derogatory behaviour.

    For many people the current SF leadership are closely associated with the IRA. Even those who were not IRA members supported both the aims and activities of the IRA. McGuinness, Ellis, Ferris and Adams are names that some people never want to see near the reins of power. That is all in living memory, it is real feelings for those who were affected by the acts of terrorism supported and committed by those men. The likes of Mary Lou and others were members while the IRA was still active and are linked by association.

    It will take time, time until those who partook in the violence are gone and a new generation untainted and unlinked to violence takes over. That is many years away.

    Pretending that it is not so does nobody a service. The transfer toxicity of Sinn Fein is clear evidence of the continued persistence of the antipathy of many people towards Sinn Fein/IRA.

    On the other hand, blueshirts, De Valera and the gun, these are really things of history.


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    #1479
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    For many people the current SF leadership are closely associated with the IRA.
    The IRA no longer exists.
    Linking a democratic political party to an organisation that no longer exists merely for the purpose of demeaning or accusing that party does not befit a politics forum.

    It is easy for Boards-Politics forum to make it policy that it is not used in a current affairs context. And it also raises it above AH forum hysterics.


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    #1480
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Godge wrote: »
    For many people the current SF leadership are closely associated with the IRA. .

    "were". The PIRA no longer exists.
    Godge wrote: »
    Even those who were not IRA members supported both the aims and activities of the IRA. McGuinness, Ellis, Ferris and Adams are names that some people never want to see near the reins of power. That is all in living memory, it is real feelings for those who were affected by the acts of terrorism supported and committed by those men. The likes of Mary Lou and others were members while the IRA was still active and are linked by association. .

    See? It's not that hard to be accurate and still make the point.


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    #1481
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,478 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    I think you're trying to enforce a political view as a Politics forum rule. Some people believe the IRA no longer exist. Others, including Provo dissidents, believe that they do. It equally a very sustainable argument that the IRA were not an army and were actually a terrorist organisation. Should it then be a rule to ban any description of the IRA as an army or a valid combatant because a political view sees things that way?

    I think you should simply get on with the idea that SF is transfer toxic because it is heavily, heavily associated with the IRA. It associates itself with the IRA. Its leadership is packed with IRA men. It publicly praises the IRA and its campaign at all times. Referencing that connection is in no way offensive to the Sinn Fein given it otherwises welcomes the association. If it is considered harmful, surely SF should lead on the issue by publicly disassociating itself from the IRA.

    But it will never do that, hence the validity of the SF/IRA tag.
    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Have they ever officially renounced them though?I am fairly sure they haven't but I am open to correction.

    They removed O'Duffy, don't praise the Blueshirts in their political statements and don't sell Blueshirt memorabilia in their gift shop so pretty sure they cut all ties. So the Provos suffer by that comparison.

    Adams has stated that he will never renounce the IRA so I don't think you thought that one through.

    As for decrying it as lowering the tone of the debate...
    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    But surely you recognize that if your dropping to the level of Paisley style debate your not doing it with the best interests of discussion.

    If you're going to characterise your opponents as negative adjectives, its very hard for usage of "SF/IRA" to lower the tone of the debate. Paisley certainly doesn't exist - that much is certain - but you're still referencing him in your postings on current events.

    Thats even before we get to usage of "RUC/PSNI" and similar reference to the RUC which no longer exists.

    Toughen up, stop trying to set the rules to shut down valid debate.


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    #1482
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    I think you're trying to enforce a political view as a Politics forum rule. Some people believe the IRA no longer exist. Others, including Provo dissidents, believe that they do. .............

    But the IRA that Sinn Fein were associated with no longer exist, and that's the one being referenced.


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    #1483
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    But the IRA that Sinn Fein were associated with no longer exist, and that's the one being referenced.

    They swapped their camo outfits and balaclava's for suits and a tie, that doesn't mean that people should not be able to reference their past. Its that simple and it manifests itself in public with their transfer toxic voting patterns. In fact Sinn Fein plays up the association with the IRA by selling merchandise to the public, as already noted.


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    #1484
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    They swapped their camo outfits and balaclava's for suits and a tie, that doesn't mean that people should not be able to reference their past. Its that simple and it manifests itself in public with their transfer toxic voting patterns. In fact Sinn Fein plays up the association with the IRA by selling merchandise to the public, as already noted.


    And, not for the first time, no-one has has said that people cannot or should not reference the past, eg
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92609654&postcount=1480


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    #1485
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I'm don't understand how Sinn Fein/IRA can be regarded as an insult. If Sinn Fein still regards the IRA terrorist campaign as legitimate, why would someone be offended if its link with the IRA is mentioned? It's either something to be ashamed of or it's not.


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    #1486
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Sand wrote: »
    I think you're trying to enforce a political view as a Politics forum rule. Some people believe the IRA no longer exist. Others, including Provo dissidents, believe that they do. It equally a very sustainable argument that the IRA were not an army and were actually a terrorist organisation. Should it then be a rule to ban any description of the IRA as an army or a valid combatant because a political view sees things that way?

    I think you should simply get on with the idea that SF is transfer toxic because it is heavily, heavily associated with the IRA. It associates itself with the IRA. Its leadership is packed with IRA men. It publicly praises the IRA and its campaign at all times. Referencing that connection is in no way offensive to the Sinn Fein given it otherwises welcomes the association. If it is considered harmful, surely SF should lead on the issue by publicly disassociating itself from the IRA.

    But it will never do that, hence the validity of the SF/IRA tag.



    They removed O'Duffy, don't praise the Blueshirts in their political statements and don't sell Blueshirt memorabilia in their gift shop so pretty sure they cut all ties. So the Provos suffer by that comparison.

    Adams has stated that he will never renounce the IRA so I don't think you thought that one through.

    Which is just another way of saying 'I'll have my cake and eat it'.

    The IRA have 'verifiably put their arms and organisation beyond use'. If they haven't, it is up to anybody accusing them of not doing it, to prove it. That is a given in any debate...you make a claim, you prove it. And using the moniker SF/IRA in a modern/current context, is to make a claim.
    It is also the rule in any debate in civilised politics (which this forum routinely moderates itself as, in every other regard) that you do not flame, defame or accuse any person or group.
    It is my contention that the moniker SF/IRA is only ever used in debates about current events to flame, defame and accuse. I challenge you to find it commonly used in any other way.
    We had the ridiculous situation the other day when two posters came on another Politics thread, totally unrelated to NI to flame and defame because the overlooking of simple rules allows this behaviour. One of the posters eventually got the ban hammer but both of them should in my opinion.

    It is a simple question, is Boards.ie Politics forum going to give respect to all democratic political parties in this country or are they going to be selective?


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    #1487
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Which is just another way of saying 'I'll have my cake and eat it'.

    The IRA have 'verifiably put their arms and organisation beyond use'. If they haven't, it is up to anybody accusing them of not doing it, to prove it. That is a given in any debate...you make a claim, you prove it. And using the moniker SF/IRA in a modern/current context, is to make a claim.
    It is also the rule in any debate in civilised politics (which this forum routinely moderates itself as, in every other regard) that you do not flame, defame or accuse any person or group.
    It is my contention that the moniker SF/IRA is only ever used in debates about current events to flame, defame and accuse. I challenge you to find it commonly used in any other way.
    We had the ridiculous situation the other day when two posters came on another Politics thread, totally unrelated to NI to flame and defame because the overlooking of simple rules allows this behaviour. One of the posters eventually got the ban hammer but both of them should in my opinion.

    It is a simple question, is Boards.ie Politics forum going to give respect to all democratic political parties in this country or are they going to be selective?


    I don't agree.

    When I first voted, way back in the mists of time, stories of the Blueshirts were in the recent past, Spain were still outside the EU because of their fascist past and I could not vote for FG in that context. That was then, this is now. As others have pointed out in other trends, FG got rid of its Blueshirt past and is way beyond that ancient history. I voted for FG at the last election without any qualms.

    Applying the same timeline and principles to SF/IRA means that the memory of what they did will affect mine and others voting patterns for the next 30 years. Getting rid of McGuinness, Adams, Ferris and Ellis would be a start. Admitting that violence is always unjustified would be a second. Following it up by dropping the United Ireland divisive rhetoric would be third and finally if might be possible to look at them on a policy-only basis (of course the madness of Shinneromics would be an obstacle still but at least that is something they will grow out of).

    This is not just an anecdote or my belief, it is backed up by factual evidence of SF transfer toxicity. When people are ready to forgive and forget, SF will get transfers like everyone else. Pretending that it is only a minority few who refuse to forgive SF/IRA for killing their fellow citizens will not help in persuading the majority of voters who still have serious doubts about them.


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    #1488
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    I don't agree.

    When I first voted, way back in the mists of time, stories of the Blueshirts were in the recent past, Spain were still outside the EU because of their fascist past and I could not vote for FG in that context. That was then, this is now. As others have pointed out in other trends, FG got rid of its Blueshirt past and is way beyond that ancient history. I voted for FG at the last election without any qualms.

    Applying the same timeline and principles to SF/IRA means that the memory of what they did will affect mine and others voting patterns for the next 30 years. Getting rid of McGuinness, Adams, Ferris and Ellis would be a start. Admitting that violence is always unjustified would be a second. Following it up by dropping the United Ireland divisive rhetoric would be third and finally if might be possible to look at them on a policy-only basis (of course the madness of Shinneromics would be an obstacle still but at least that is something they will grow out of).

    This is not just an anecdote or my belief, it is backed up by factual evidence of SF transfer toxicity. When people are ready to forgive and forget, SF will get transfers like everyone else. Pretending that it is only a minority few who refuse to forgive SF/IRA for killing their fellow citizens will not help in persuading the majority of voters who still have serious doubts about them.

    And we have yet another thread on Politics being diverted because this term- SF/IRA- is being used to flame. Jubilantly thanked by your good self Godge.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057304897&page=14


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    #1489
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And we have yet another thread on Politics being diverted because this term- SF/IRA- is being used to flame. Jubilantly thanked by your good self Godge.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057304897&page=14


    On the contrary, that is one of the threads it is relevant to.

    Sinn Fein have overperformed in polls and/or underperformed in actual elections and fail to attract transfers in a way that other parties do. That is fact.

    One of the clearly plausible reasons for this is the electorate's perception that the IRA has not gone away and that certain leaders of SF are tainted by their association with the IRA. That is legitimate opinion to explain the fact.

    The use of the phrase SF/IRA therefore to explain the election performance in that thread would appear to me to be justified.

    I might not have used the phrase in the way that certain other posters did but I would thank their posts as it is confirmation that I am not alone in holding an opinion that SF's failure in recent by-elections is down to their failure to disassociate themselves from the IRA.


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    #1490
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    On the contrary, that is one of the threads it is relevant to.

    Sinn Fein have overperformed in polls and/or underperformed in actual elections and fail to attract transfers in a way that other parties do. That is fact.

    One of the clearly plausible reasons for this is the electorate's perception that the IRA has not gone away and that certain leaders of SF are tainted by their association with the IRA. That is legitimate opinion to explain the fact.

    The use of the phrase SF/IRA therefore to explain the election performance in that thread would appear to me to be justified.

    I might not have used the phrase in the way that certain other posters did but I would thank their posts as it is confirmation that I am not alone in holding an opinion that SF's failure in recent by-elections is down to their failure to disassociate themselves from the IRA.

    Again, nobody has a problem with SF being historically linked in a post to their association with a defunct organisation.
    The use of 'SF/IRA' in a modern/current affairs context (and that thread is a discussion on current events) is an allegation.
    The question is; does Boards.ie politics forum, stand over that allegation by allowing it to be used.


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    #1491
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Again, nobody has a problem with SF being historically linked in a post to their association with a defunct organisation.
    The use of 'SF/IRA' in a modern/current affairs context (and that thread is a discussion on current events) is an allegation.
    The question is; does Boards.ie politics forum, stand over that allegation by allowing it to be used.

    I'm curious, do you have a problem with people saying the association between the IRA (past) and SF damages them when it comes to the voting booth? None of this "the IRA are still around and linked to SF" stuff but the very real issue SF has with being remembered as being the political wing of the Provisional IRA during the Troubles. Because I've heard and seen a lot of this with regard to SF and why people don't vote for them or transfer to them.


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    #1492
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    nesf wrote: »
    I'm curious, do you have a problem with people saying the association between the IRA (past) and SF damages them when it comes to the voting booth? None of this "the IRA are still around and linked to SF" stuff but the very real issue SF has with being remembered as being the political wing of the Provisional IRA during the Troubles. Because I've heard and seen a lot of this with regard to SF and why people don't vote for them or transfer to them.

    Absolutely no problem with somebody making that claim on a relevant thread, that is legitimate debate on a politics forum.
    My problem is that using the term SF/IRA as the parties title, infers two allegations...that the IRA are still operating and that SF are currently linked to them.
    My other problem is that it is primarily used to flame, on the thread I linked to, you can see that other posters are quite happy to use SF while making the historical links to the IRA. Then we get the flamers using the SF?IRA term and the thread very quickly goes off topic and diverts, leading very quickly to a train wreck.
    A quick look at any other thread discussing the current SF party will also show you that.


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    #1493
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,599 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The IRA is no longer. Sure, there may be rogue elements who still want to achieve unification via whatever means necessary, but SF have had to distance themselves from these views and people. Thank god SF have distanced themselves from this.

    The IRA served its purpose, a very noble and worthy one IMO. There would not be a stable North had the IRA not existed. The world had enough of the violence and killings up the North, hence the need for the IRA to move on and disband and embrace peace and harmony.

    SF are promoting this method. To keep referring to SF as SF/IRA is factually incorrect, and only drags back up the past that we all want to move on from.


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    #1494
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    walshb wrote: »
    SF are promoting this method. To keep referring to SF as SF/IRA is factually incorrect, and only drags back up the past that we all want to move on from.

    SF want us to move on from their past.

    Not all of us want to forget the part that McGuinness, Ferris, Ellis, Adams and others played in despicable events.

    I keep getting attacked for saying this but the reality is there are many many people who will not forget however much SF want us to.


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    #1495
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    SF want us to move on from their past.

    Not all of us want to forget the part that McGuinness, Ferris, Ellis, Adams and others played in despicable events.

    I keep getting attacked for saying this but the reality is there are many many people who will not forget however much SF want us to.


    That post ^ illustrates exactly what I mean.
    You where able to make it, without using 'SF/IRA'.


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    #1496
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    That post ^ illustrates exactly what I mean.
    You where able to make it, without using 'SF/IRA'.

    SF/IRA is shorthand for that post.


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    #1497
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    SF/IRA is shorthand for that post.

    You proved yourself that 'SF/IRA' is not necessary. If past associations with a defunct organisation are relevant to a discussion you are free to make known those connections.
    What you are not free to do without providing some semblance of proof, is to allege that the IRA are still operating and that SF are connected to them. Using the term SF/IRA is making that very allegation.


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    #1498
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I don't have any issue with individual people's past's being mentioned, I do have an issue though with the use of SF/IRA in a current affairs context.
    It is meant to be accusatory and derogatory and cutting it out would be very easy for Boards-Politics forum to do, as they do with any other accusatory and derogatory behaviour.

    IIRC it was used in a thread about political polls, the main talking point being SF and FG heading the poll. The thread isn't solely about current affairs, voting intentions will come up. Again, people think Haughey is relevant to FF, Lowry with FG, Gilmore visiting Russia, Labour lefties and abortion, you name it, people have some rare reasons for not voting for parties! (rare being a Donegal expression for odd!)

    It comes back to somebody saying a reason not to vote for SF is their IRA connections, that's fine, lots of people share that view. If somebody kept using the phrase SF/IRA to wind up posters, I'd see it as trolling. I don't see the merit in a black and white policy on it, mods can use their discretion and judgement on it.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Options
    #1499
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    It is a simple question, is Boards.ie Politics forum going to give respect to all democratic political parties in this country or are they going to be selective?

    Equal disrespect is shown to all parties!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #1500
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You proved yourself that 'SF/IRA' is not necessary. If past associations with a defunct organisation are relevant to a discussion you are free to make known those connections.
    What you are not free to do without providing some semblance of proof, is to allege that the IRA are still operating and that SF are connected to them. Using the term SF/IRA is making that very allegation.


    SF will be linked to the IRA in the same way as FF are linked to the bank guarantee. FF/bankers will be equally valid as SF/IRA.

    There are those in FF who say they were pressurised by the ECB in 2008 (no evidence of this) and by all of the banks and the economists. Doesn't matter what they say, what matters is what opinion people form on it, that is politics. Ditto SF/IRA.

    To put it another way, anyone who castigates the use of SF/IRA but defends the association of FF with the bankers is guilty of double standards.

    The reason I use FF/bankers as the other example is because both that and SF/IRA are of the same vintage unlike other comments such as the Blueshirts one which is clearly a historical reference.


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    #1501
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    K-9 wrote: »
    I don't see the merit in a black and white policy on it,

    I am not allowed (rightly) to allege something I cannot back up with proof.

    Using SF/IRA as a title is an allegation.

    K-9 wrote:
    Equal disrespect is shown to all parties!

    By linking them to a defunct organisation in their title? You'll have to show me that.


This discussion has been closed.
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