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Daughter forced to believe in God

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    #692
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    It's bizarre that any child is put on the spot and expected to explain his or her theological position when availing of a state service.


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    #693
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    lazygal wrote: »
    It's bizarre that any child is put on the spot and expected to explain his or her theological position when availing of a state service.

    It certainly is,
    Imagine if you had to provide your local Doctor, state funded Creche etc with a baptism cert....just to use the services, and if you didn't have one you'd have to travel perhaps miles and miles to avail of non catholic ethos services.

    Of course state services such as the HSE often simply assume you are catholic without any such evidence to support this.

    I know thats what the HSE put down on my file.


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    #694
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    GreeBo wrote: »

    The parent and child had a conversation about it prior to the incident; thats the time to have the conversation with the school/teacher/principal.

    jesusfacepalm.jpg


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    #695
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    bluewolf wrote: »
    update 1
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92058583&postcount=39

    OP doesn't mind religion being taught
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92138440&postcount=607

    until his daughter said she didn't want to make communion
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92130915&postcount=450

    now OP has resolved this with the Principal
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92136196&postcount=571



    Maybe a mod wants to put ^ that in the OP or a link to it


    54213341.jpg
    (Or Cake or biscuits? :).)


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    #696
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    GreeBo wrote: »
    But thats not relevant, maybe my child wants to live in a tree somewhere or become an artist, learn a trade?
    If you are advocating that you should do certain things as a child incase they are needed as an adult then why not do the same about religion, yunno, in case its actually all true. Otherwise your child wont get into heaven, or Valhalla.


    Yep thats exactly it. What I am most definitely not advocating is that the only responsible adult who is aware of the current situation regarding the child informs the other adults who they have given charge of their children to.
    In which case both they and the parents could agree that they be left out of the religious teachings that they dont want to be part of.


    While your child is in school the school are acting as the parents of the child, they are in charge of the childs needs.
    In a religious school, unless otherwise noted, that charge is going to involve learning the religion of the school.

    Sorry, I didnt realise that you had the ability to read minds of children and decipher their beliefs, kudos to you. Belief isnt a technicality, being in the same environment is.


    The parent and child had a conversation about it prior to the incident; thats the time to have the conversation with the school/teacher/principal.



    ok, if you dont think its the parents fault for explaining the situation, clearly it must be the 7 year old for not being able to explain their theological position to a teacher.

    still going with the totally ignoring what the OP has already said over and over again about how the situation arose and the previously held beliefs of the child that have also been repeated over and over?

    and still ignoring the basic constitutional and human rights of the child in this case and other examples that have been given.

    no child in this country has their religious affiliation branded into their forehead permanently at birth and everyone (even a child) is perfectly entitled to change their mind about whether or not they believe in god at ANY time, as i imagine a lot of the non-believers in this forum would have done at some point in their formative years.

    i really can't believe i'm already having to say this again, but seriously, you go back and actually read what the OP has posted in the thread numerous times because right now (as are several other posters) you are arguing over your own misconceptions of what you think has happened, when the reality of the how the situation came about is not at all what you seem to think it is.


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    #697
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Or the teachers inability to take a child's non-belief seriously, something many adults who follow religions also have a large amount of trouble doing too so its not at all shocking.

    Instead they assumed the child was trouble making or just trying to be "different", again something many religious adults assume when they talk to other adults who are atheists.

    Perhaps the assumed that the parent would have mentioned something to the people they were entrusting their child'd education with?
    lazygal wrote: »
    It's bizarre that any child is put on the spot and expected to explain his or her theological position when availing of a state service.

    Indeed, thats what parents are for.

    vibe666 wrote: »
    still going with the totally ignoring what the OP has already said over and over again about how the situation arose and the previously held beliefs of the child that have also been repeated over and over?

    and still ignoring the basic constitutional and human rights of the child in this case and other examples that have been given.

    no child in this country has their religious affiliation branded into their forehead permanently at birth and everyone (even a child) is perfectly entitled to change their mind about whether or not they believe in god at ANY time, as i imagine a lot of the non-believers in this forum would have done at some point in their formative years.

    i really can't believe i'm already having to say this again, but seriously, you go back and actually read what the OP has posted in the thread numerous times because right now (as are several other posters) you are arguing over your own misconceptions of what you think has happened, when the reality of the how the situation came about is not at all what you seem to think it is.

    What am I ignoring exactly?
    Did the parent and child have a conversation about religion?
    Did that happen before the incident in the school?
    Did the parent inform the school of this incident?

    For the zillionth time, Im not discussing whether or not the child has to learn any religion, I frankly dont care.
    The point I'm making, ad nauseum, is that the teacher cannot be expected to take the word of a 7 year old on what the are supposed to teach them.
    Expecting a teacher to ask a classfull of kids what they do or dont believe in, in a Catholic school is just silly.


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    #698
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    It's about the teacher's/principal's reactions. Their responses were inappropriate. The correct course of action would have been to take the issue to outside of class rather than confronting the child.

    The OP hadn't broached the question of religion with the school as he was letting the child find her own way.


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    #699
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Cabaal wrote: »
    not a parent yet, but basically this post sums up my feelings about the whole thing.

    Myself and my wife have already agreed that in all good conscious we couldn't baptise any children we have,

    Starting life out with a lie and agreeing to raise such children within the "ethos" of an organization responsible for such much suffering, abuse and hatred towards friends of ours would be just wrong.

    We did the same. We select No religion on the census for all of us - but the census question itself is fundamentally flawed. The question is "What religion are you" then lists a few, then a box for Other, then item 7 (I think) is None. The question should be "Do you have a religion Y/N" then "If Yes tick below".


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    #700
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Orion wrote: »
    We did the same. We select No religion on the census for all of us - but the census question itself is fundamentally flawed. The question is "What religion are you" then lists a few, then a box for Other, then item 7 (I think) is None. The question should be "Do you have a religion Y/N" then "If Yes tick below".

    Or change it to a more loaded question

    "Do you practice a religion?"

    if most people answer it honestly the answer is no :p


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    #701
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    A German out your money where your mouth is approach would be even better. It'd cut out the hatches, matches and dispatches brigade very quickly.


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    #702
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    GreeBo wrote: »
    What am I ignoring exactly?
    Did the parent and child have a conversation about religion?
    Did that happen before the incident in the school?
    Did the parent inform the school of this incident?

    For the zillionth time, Im not discussing whether or not the child has to learn any religion, I frankly dont care.
    The point I'm making, ad nauseum, is that the teacher cannot be expected to take the word of a 7 year old on what the are supposed to teach them.
    Expecting a teacher to ask a classfull of kids what they do or dont believe in, in a Catholic school is just silly.

    And again, the point you are attempting and failing to make is based on your continued misconception that the OP had prior knowledge that his child was about to decide that she didn't believe in god, which he did not and which he, and myself and several others at this stage have repeatedly stated.

    Until you correct your misconception about the prior god related conversation the OP had with his daughter, we aren't going to get anywhere.


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    #703
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    lazygal wrote: »
    A German out your money where your mouth is approach would be even better. It'd cut out the hatches, matches and dispatches brigade very quickly.

    Certainly without a doubt it would be the best model and best of all the Vatican support the German model, so its Officially "Pope Approved" :D

    brazil-pope--2.jpg

    I'd say you'd quickly see Catholics drop down to 30-40% overnight if a church tax was introduced,


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    #704
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    ardle1 wrote: »
    How in Gods name does someone have to be forced to believe in God?

    By people like you, with a bit more power, who are willing to force their ideology on others.
    Surely in this day and age and the obviousness that we certainly are 'from/created' by a greater being(God), nobody should be forced to believe!?

    What evidence do you have for this fantastic claim, that it is obvious a god was involved, pray?
    So what did the young lady believe? eh that we actually where created from a grain of dust, big bang theory etc etc... ha ha ha don't make me laugh!

    Well, when a mammy and a daddy love each other very much (or think they do because their hormones are acting up), they mostly go away into a private room (though some people like to use the back of a car) and get naked. They start touching each other in their private places in order to get extra excited. Eventually the man puts his penis into the woman's vagina (sometimes with a sheath of rubber called a condom or french letter covering the penis) and after a while semen spews out from the excitement. If it is done at the right time of the month, the semen will fertilise a ripe egg released by the woman's ovum and implant itself in the wall of the womb. Over the next nine months or so (if the woman decides not to go to England for an abortion, or there are no major complications), the fertilised egg feeds off the woman's body (in a symbiotic process) becoming a zygote, then an embryo then a foetus and finally is born in a quite complicated and often painful (due to humans evolving to be bipedal a woman's hips are no longer quite the right shape for giving birth) process called labour.

    The more you know...


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    #705
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ardle1 wrote: »
    Surely in this day and age and the obviousness that we certainly are 'from/created' by a greater being(God), nobody should be forced to believe!?

    wow,
    You have information that no other human being on this planet has?
    That we were without a doubt created by a god and that is fact?

    You sir are now the most famous person in the world. take a bow


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    #706
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    srsly78 wrote: »
    The Catholic church and the book of genesis both concur with the big bang theory :pac:

    The rcc do, after long soul searching (mainly of the variety "how much longer can we be seen to be so silly on this issue?") and after much badgering from Msgr. Georges Lemaitre to drop the idea that the big bang was proof of god (he kept his scientific work clearly distinct from his religious beliefs).

    The book of genesis is far more difficult. Firstly which version of creation are you talking about? Secondly, the genesis myths both are cobbled together from older, non-judaic sources. Thirdly, neither are in the remotest way compatible with modern scientific theory, nor the evidence base upon which it rests, unless you are so willing to conclude that the bible is allegorical that you are insistent that what is written in the bible is not meant to be interpreted in a literal manner, and often means quite the opposite of the most plain interpretation what is written.


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    #707
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    Yes the teacher and principal could and should have handled it better. There is no disputing that. Contrary to what people on this thread might think (the opposing side if you will) I think the bible is a storybook with a lot of tales that are very far fetched. I do not agree with some of the catholic teachings. The gay one really gets my back up as I have gay friends and I also believe abortion should be legal under 12 weeks for all. I'm rambling on here a bit but I'm not the holy jo you might think, I do however believe in God. I have family who are atheists and I respect their beliefs or non beliefs.


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    #708
    Mars Bar
    Registered Users Posts: 31,823 ✭✭✭✭Mars Bar


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Yes the teacher and principal could and should have handled it better. There is no disputing that. Contrary to what people on this thread might think (the opposing side if you will) I think the bible is a storybook with a lot of tales that are very far fetched. I do not agree with some of the catholic teachings. The gay one really gets my back up as I have gay friends and I also believe abortion should be legal under 12 weeks for all. I'm rambling on here a bit but I'm not the holy jo you might think, I do however believe in God. I have family who are atheists and I respect their beliefs or non beliefs.

    To be honest, I wouldn't have believed you going on what I have read from you on this thread.


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    #709
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    lukesmom wrote: »
    7 is very young to make up your mind. I'm not trying to argue.

    Well then why are you so insistent that religion (specifically the brand of christianity you follow) be forced on seven year old children? Children are not born religious, they are made, hence the old Jesuit saying "give me the boy until he is seven and I will make the man". We are, all of us, naturally atheistic, in that no single person was ever born with belief in any deity.


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    #710
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    Mars Bar wrote: »
    To be honest, I wouldn't have believed you going on what I have read from you on this thread.

    Given our very recent history, I'm not sure I should be saying this at all, but in my experience here, the overwhelming majority of boardsies I have met in real life (and I'm sure I'm not alone in this) are all very nice people, quite often very different from how they can appear to be from their online persona here.

    I've previously worked alongside people for years and got on very well with them online, without realising that at the same time we were having quite heated spats on here and not getting on well at all, we were then going to lunch together (without realising it), shooting the breeze and getting on great, then going back to our desks and giving each other grief online.

    It's quite possible that (other than those of us who do already know each other and know that we know each other) several people here who are disagreeing about this issue may well know each other quite well in real life and not even realise it.

    For the sake of complete honesty, it would take an awful lot to convince me that lukesmom IS one of those people, but anything is possible. :)


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    #711
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    vibe666 wrote: »
    Given our very recent history, I'm not sure I should be saying this at all, but in my experience here, the overwhelming majority of boardsies I have met in real life (and I'm sure I'm not alone in this) are all very nice people, quite often very different from how they can appear to be from their online persona here.

    I've previously worked alongside people for years and got on very well with them online, without realising that at the same time we were having quite heated spats on here and not getting on well at all, we were then going to lunch together (without realising it), shooting the breeze and getting on great, then going back to our desks and giving each other grief online.

    It's quite possible that (other than those of us who do already know each other and know that we know each other) several people here who are disagreeing about this issue may well know each other quite well in real life and not even realise it.

    For the sake of complete honesty, it would take an awful lot to convince me that lukesmom IS one of those people, but anything is possible. :)

    Thanks :(


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    #712
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    vibe666 wrote: »
    .....For the sake of complete honesty, it would take an awful lot to convince me that lukesmom IS one of those people, but anything is possible. :)

    My son played on a soccer team in bushy park, Rangers, Luke was on that team. He left and went to Joeys. Is that your son Lukesmom :) Interesting that you argue strongly for religion but then you struggle with some of it's teachings. Having a belief in god and not really believing in the church, would that put you more in the Theism bracket than the RCC bracket. Its not reallt a shopping list, if you don't believe that Gay people are Evil then you can't really follow the RCC, can you ?


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    #713
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    If Luke decided not to make his confirmation would you have insisted he make it anyway?


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    #714
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    lazygal wrote: »
    If Luke decided not to make his confirmation would you have insisted he make it anyway?

    Yes absolutely


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    #715
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Thanks :(

    It took quite a lot for me to say that. :)

    You've been very (unnecessarily imho as I'm sure I've adequately expressed) confrontational in the thread, but for all I know you might be my my next door neighbour and we get on great in real life, you just never know.


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    #716
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    It appears I owe the OP an apology and that in actuality the "decision" by the child happened in class and only the child was aware of it.
    In my defense this much isnt obvious from the OP and I missed the clarification amongst the 400 other posts yesterday.

    I would add that the fact the child was baptised, the school asked for the cert nad its a Catholic school would imply that the parents wanted the child to be taught as a Catholic, my point still stands, if the parent wanted their child to decide on religion, they should a) not baptise them but more importantly b) tell the school this.
    The reality is that a teacher isnt going to give much credence to a childs opinion in a situation like this given the above factors (Catholic school, confirmed baptism )

    Apologies OP.


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    #717
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    Gerry T wrote: »
    My son played on a soccer team in bushy park, Rangers, Luke was on that team. He left and went to Joeys. Is that your son Lukesmom :) Interesting that you argue strongly for religion but then you struggle with some of it's teachings. Having a belief in god and not really believing in the church, would that put you more in the Theism bracket than the RCC bracket. Its not reallt a shopping list, if you don't believe that Gay people are Evil then you can't really follow the RCC, can you ?

    I don't have to believe in all their teachings that's the thing. It's not a shopping list but I can name a lot of friends and family who would have the same thoughts as mine. I'm entitled to celebrate religious occasions, mass etc even if I don't believe in every single thing the RCC stand for. As far as I'm concerned that's my perogitive. Call me a la carte or whatever it doesn't bother me.


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    #718
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Yes absolutely

    Just out of interest why? I would think at 12 they know themselves well enough to make that choice. He can always make it later on in life if he wanted to.


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    #719
    Mary63
    Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Mary63


    vibe666 wrote: »
    Given our very recent history, I'm not sure I should be saying this at all, but in my experience here, the overwhelming majority of boardsies I have met in real life (and I'm sure I'm not alone in this) are all very nice people, quite often very different from how they can appear to be from their online persona here.

    I've previously worked alongside people for years and got on very well with them online, without realising that at the same time we were having quite heated spats on here and not getting on well at all, we were then going to lunch together (without realising it), shooting the breeze and getting on great, then going back to our desks and giving each other grief online.


    I am really glad i am not paying you to work for me,is that what you spend your time at work doing,is that not immoral.


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    #720
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Just out of interest why? I would think at 12 they know themselves well enough to make that choice. He can always make it later on in life if he wanted to.

    He wanted to make it so I didn't have to make him.


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    #721
    Mary63
    Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Mary63


    The OPs dd has been enrolled in a catholic School,this is to suit the OPs logistics in spite of the fact that the ET model would have suited better.
    OP now needs to teach his dd to respect the ethos of the school she is in,that means keeping her beliefs about the fact that there is no god to herself,who has taught her this,if it was the OP he should never have enrolled her in a catholic school.The Principal and teacher have handled it badly but unless the child zips it she is going to be in for a miserable few years.


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