Season 4 Finale : HAVE read the books - spoilers possible

wyrn · 16-06-2014 7:39pm

I actually quite enjoyed it and I'm surprised by the reaction here. I think introducing LS as a cliffhanger would have been too much. For me the ending felt like the pieces on a chess board were set - some characters were removed from the game, some changed direction and others were brought to the front.

When you think about it, nearly all the main characters are off in a new direction, Varys, Tyrion, Ayra, Sansa, Bran, Stannis... Meanwhile those who are left pretty much where they were are not in as great or as safe as a position as they thought like Ceresi and Danys. To me it seems that to take over and hold power is much harder than in previous rebellions (Roberts). There is a big change in the air and yes winter is coming and what does that mean. It gave me chills (no pun intended) when Mance told Jon that he wanted to get the wildlings to safety behind the wall.

Soft Falling Rain · 16-06-2014 7:45pm

I'd still see LS as a banker to appear purely for the issue alone of what on earth will they do with Pod and Brienne if they cut the character? Why go to the effort of actually putting them together in the storyline if you're going to cut the legs from underneath it?

intellectual dosser · 16-06-2014 8:11pm

Disappointed...what happened to "Where do whores go?"

mrkite77 · 16-06-2014 8:22pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What's the point of adapting the books at all if you leave out cool characters?

If you say so. I, for one, rolled my eyes when LS's identity was revealed in the books. I hated her character. She made a lot of really stupid decisions when she was alive, and continued to do so when she was a zombie. I'm glad she's not going to be in it.

RobbingBandit · 16-06-2014 8:42pm

Spoiler territory.

Lady Stoneheart is not a cop out, Cat had nothing left to live for, Sansa is lost to the Lannisters, Arys too as she hasn't been seen since the day Ned died, Bran and Rickon dead, Robb dead all as far as she knows at least. After Thoros brings her back from the dead as her throat has been slashed she now has no voice, all she is now is vengeance, Brienne did not retrieve the girls from Kings Landing so she failed and must be punished,Cat has no reason to live other than to see the Lannisters die, it will now be a total cluster **** on screen as the story has changed again and Brienne has seen Arya, oh HBO how you totally pissed this up is maddening to me.

Iwasfrozen · 16-06-2014 8:46pm

mrkite77 wrote: »

If you say so. I, for one, rolled my eyes when LS's identity was revealed in the books. I hated her character. She made a lot of really stupid decisions when she was alive, and continued to do so when she was a zombie. I'm glad she's not going to be in it.

She will be in it.

username123 · 16-06-2014 8:47pm

I loved it.

Although I am confused on some issues! Have they just scrapped Cersei sleeping with the Kettleblacks?

And why wouldn't Brienne have told Arya that they were on the trail of Sansa?

Rory McCann, amazing. Definitely left the Quiet Isle theory open. The Hound vs The Mountain is still a dream!

Bit rushed with Tywin Lannister, also, they must be ditching Tyrion travelling with Penny or perhaps ditching Jon Connington, which would be a shame.

I was watching with a non book reader so I couldn't jump up and down shouting "Stannis! Stannis!" at the screen but it was amazing.

Bloodraven looked totally different to how I imagined him, my imagination had better cgi. But I did like the Children.

Arya off to Braavos. Yes.

Son0vagun · 16-06-2014 8:52pm

Balon Greyjoy is still alive!

Liam O · 16-06-2014 9:04pm

Son0vagun wrote: »

Balon Greyjoy is still alive!

Which would surely make Stannis doubt Melisandre's power which is another needless change.

Daith · 16-06-2014 9:16pm

Liam O wrote: »

Which would surely make Stannis doubt Melisandre's power which is another needless change.

Jesus. He's going to die. There's surely going to be a big focus on the Iron born next season.

Can you at least wait until the show actually shows this?

username123 · 16-06-2014 9:27pm

Liam O wrote: »

Which would surely make Stannis doubt Melisandre's power which is another needless change.

I bet we find out about his death in the opening episode of Season 5, leading nicely into lots of stuff about the Iron Born.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 16-06-2014 9:40pm

username123 wrote: »

I bet we find out about his death in the opening episode of Season 5, leading nicely into lots of stuff about the Iron Born.

In a possibly leaked piece of info on the fifth season, in the first episode we're supposed to see Balon crossing Pyke on foot, but upon his appraoch to one of Pyke's many bridges, he gets accosted by an old, sinister fellow; possibly magical in origin. This man is supposed to call out to Balon and say "What is your name?", to which Balon naturally responds "I am Balon Greyjoy: Lord Reaper of Pyke, King of Salt and Rock, Son of the Sea Wind." "What is you favourite colour?"

RobbingBandit · 16-06-2014 10:05pm

If it is a magical person it will probably be Pyat Pree as Euron Crows Eye is said to have saved the warlocks from the sea on his way back.

Raphael · 16-06-2014 10:10pm

chupacabra · 16-06-2014 10:10pm

username123 wrote: »

Bit rushed with Tywin Lannister, also, they must be ditching Tyrion travelling with Penny or perhaps ditching Jon Connington, which would be a shame.

I believe Varys will replace Jon Connington.

ixoy · 16-06-2014 10:22pm

Both of us here really enjoyed it.

Maybe it's because I read "A Storm of Swords" years and years ago, but the deviations didn't bother me and I'm quite happy for the show to take its own journey rather than slavishly follow every twist and turn (which will be important for the somewhat tiresome "A Feast for Crows").

LS not being there - grand. Good twist but I felt it was a little bit of a cheap one and really, other than going "Ohh cool - Zombie mum!" it didn't really do much for me.

FunLover18 · 16-06-2014 10:22pm

Very disappointed with the Tywin/Jaime stuff. Really rushed, was it too much to expect watchers to remember who Tysha was? "AAre you afraid of a dead whore" doesn't have the same ring as "Wherever whores go"

Not sure where there going with Cersei. Really didn't like her telling Tywin about herself and Jaime, a complete deviation from the books.

Hound v Brienne was epic!! Dying Hound and Arya, excellent. I was sceptical of the Arya/Hound buddy comedy thing at the start but it really worked out in the end.

No LS

razorblunt · 16-06-2014 10:23pm

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

In a possibly leaked piece of info on the fifth season, in the first episode we're supposed to see Balon crossing Pyke on foot, but upon his appraoch to one of Pyke's many bridges, he gets accosted by an old, sinister fellow; possibly magical in origin. This man is supposed to call out to Balon and say "What is your name?", to which Balon naturally responds "I am Balon Greyjoy: Lord Reaper of Pyke, King of Salt and Rock, Son of the Sea Wind." "What is you favourite colour?"

I hope he's swotting up on his seagulls.

The tyrion killings didn't have the same effect for me as in the books, especially as they removed Jaimie's reveal of his first love.

Un Croissant · 16-06-2014 10:29pm

The duke out between Brienne and Hound was class, I thought. I thought the skeletons were dodgy at best. It seemed very frantic or something. I also had to remind a very very recent book reader about Stoneheart so she didn't notice. No big deal really.

FunLover18 · 16-06-2014 10:36pm

Someone just said to me "I still think Arya killed the Hound even if Brienne did all the work" he knows I've read the books do you think I could get away with something along the lines of "who said he was dead?"

bopper · 16-06-2014 11:13pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

Very disappointed with the Tywin/Jaime stuff. Really rushed, was it too much to expect watchers to remember who Tysha was?

I think so yes. Hasn't she only been mentioned once back in the first season?

My Dad and his wife are massive fans of the show but outside of the hour a week that they watch it, they really don't devote any time to it. Considering the large number of viewers who don't discuss the show online, read up on theories, revisit episodes a second time etc. I think if there were 2 minutes of forced dialogue thrown in about Tysha, a character we haven't heard about in three years, a lot of viewers would have been left scratching their heads.

Mr.Prodston · 16-06-2014 11:17pm

Ok I've re-watched it now with a clearer head and I was much happier with it the second time around. I guess I was caught up in my expectations this morning.

Sure I'm still disappointed that the Tysha angle was cut but I remember saying before the season started that as long as the Shae scene played out ok then it would all be cool. Tyrion walks in expecting to find his father and sees the woman he loved in his father's bed. Her betrayal was real and I can more clearly see Tyrion's rationale in the show, it's the same only powered by love for Shae rather than Tysha.

_______________________________________________________________

Rory McCann was absolutely fantastic and Maisie Williams is destined for great things. Their scenes this season have been some of the greatest in tv history, no hyperbole there either. He truly brought the Hound to life and fair play to D&D for keeping the Quiet isle theory alive at least.

The music in the episode was absolutely fantastic too and should get a lot more credit. Julian Glover as Pycelle was hilarious too. Season 5 will be the year of the Stan. His scene with Mance was great and Ciaran Hinds in general was very good in both scenes. It would have been nice to have had even one or two more scenes this season with him. Tormund and Jon's little chat was nice and well placed ahead of next season.

So yeah Mr.P's a much happier camper tonight

Gbear · 17-06-2014 12:28am

bopper wrote: »

I think so yes. Hasn't she only been mentioned once back in the first season?

They had plenty of time dicking around with pointless romance scenes between Grey Worm and Missandei or the "beetles" speech.
Lack of time is no excuse in this show.
That applies to LS as well.

Some parts, I liked very much. The funeral pyre for the men of the Nights watch was poignant, as was the one for Ygritte. The scene in the tent did a job.

Stannis charge felt a bit pointless. There was about 12 wildlings there. I don't really blame them there though - I'm sure they'd have had 100k, mammoths and giants if they had the budget.

Not sure about Bran's scene. I'd imagine Jojen is dead soon in the books anyway, if he isn't already. The magic grenade things were a bit weird. Ultimately the scene did what it was supposed to, albeit without capturing the desperation of the books.

Missing a little change like "Now that's where you're wrong, Father. Why, I believe I'm you writ small." seemed pointless and it's a really good line. Mightn't have fit in with the tone they were going for but I don't think it hit the mark as it was.

Not sure what they're going to do with Brienne now. The Stoneheart storyline feels to big to leave out, so hopefully that corrects itself next season.

Not as good as the last couple of episodes but fairly good on the whole.

mrkite77 · 17-06-2014 12:47am

Gbear wrote: »

The magic grenade things were a bit weird.

They were horrible.. like the cheesiest special effect ever. I felt like I was watching an episode of Bewitched. Did anyone notice if the Child of the Forest twitched their nose?

Wereghost · 17-06-2014 12:52am

I think we just got a taste of what GoT: the movie might be like; in fact, I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that The Children had gotten a limited cinema release. Epic and sweeping both visually and aurally. Loved the music accompanying Stannis's invasion and Arya's departure - stellar in both cases. The strains of The Rains Of Castermere in Tywin's final scene were a nice touch too.

Will miss Rory McCann - Sandor may have been "the biggest **** in the Seven Kingdoms", but McCann made him constantly watchable. Brilliant scene with Brienne, too.

The skeletons were an unexpected treat. A little goofy, but I saw it as a lovely homage to Ray Harryhausen's work.

I think Tyrion's desperate scuffle with Shae struck a good balance as compared to the book (though considering that the show had been prepared to "go there" with Oberyn's death, I had half-expected the writers to court controversy and just have him murder her outright as he does in book 3). The Tywin scene was great, but lost a little oomph by substituting Shae for Tysha as the sex worker in question, even if it did serve to redeem Tyrion somewhat.

I've heard that this episode is being submitted for consideration for this year's Emmys. Smart call; I feel like I say this every time I comment on an episode, but this one is one of the show's most impressive to date.

valor rorghulis · 17-06-2014 1:22am

Really think they should have started with the tywin/cersei scene and ended with STANNIS

- like many arcs theyve been much more blatant about qyburns plans for gregor

I'm glad they left the end result with the hound identical to the books

lena headey is such a bloody troll. Shes actually more evil than cersei

also kinda think if shae was to replace tysha, tyrion should have promised to follow her to essos(and meant it)

he would have dropped everything and sansa for tysha, whereas he sent shae away, even if reluctantly so

Mickeroo · 17-06-2014 2:02am

I actually thought it really was the best episode of the entire 4 seasons. Every scene was brilliant. So much feels all over the place. The last 3 episodes really have been brilliant television.

I understand the misgivings about leaving the Tysha stuff out but I thought it was pretty clear that being driven to murder Shae was why Tyrion went and killed Tywin and I'm ok with that. I liked that him and Jaimie parted on good terms.

To be honest, if Jaimie had mentioned Tysha I guarantee people who hadn't read the book would have been just like "Who the **** is Tysha?". It made more sense for the show because having Shae's death be the spark puts a face on his grief for the show watchers.

Jojen's death was unexpected but it was a good scene, and having Meera do it was very sad, even though they're far from my favourite characters. I'm not sure what the deal was with the Harryhausen skeletons as I'm pretty sure in the book they were just straight up wights, but hey it was a pretty cool bit of fantasy action anyway.

I loved Brienne and Arya's little conversation before the Hound came out. The fight was good, and the fact we didn't see old Sandor die makes me think he is actually alive as they have had no qualms about snuffing out fan theories in the past, then again they could be trolling us.

Stuff at the wall was all top notch too.

Regards LS, not bothered, it wouldn't really have fit in this season I guess. I actually would not be surprised if we don't see it until near the end of season 5. Plus it makes sense that they leave something dramatic for next season as sweet FA actually happens for the foreseeable future. This also excites me a great deal because I have a feeling they might start bringing more stuff from TWOW into play to move things along a bit.

TL:DR - Best. Episode. Ever.:pac:

bopper · 17-06-2014 2:34am

Gbear wrote: »

They had plenty of time dicking around with pointless romance scenes between Grey Worm and Missandei or the "beetles" speech.
Lack of time is no excuse in this show.
That applies to LS as well.

Huh? I didn't mention anything about not having enough time.

Oranage2 · 17-06-2014 2:49am

Not my favourite episode, thought most scenes were very predictable, only really liked the Jon snow one with Mance.

Not too surprised about leaving LS out, we need some shock moments for the next season.

Washington Irving · 17-06-2014 3:13am

I'm a bit hesitant to criticise it now lest I get lynched, but I was quite disappointed. It was a great episode from a TV only perspective but as one those people with a religious loyalty to the original material when it comes to any adaptation it really irked.

A sparse few of the 100,000 wildlings putting up a fight against Stannis, or even appearing, didn't do the books justice at all. A large portion of the wildlings are not warriors but that 'battle' was very tame. The standoff with Stannis, Davos, Mance and Jon was probably my favourite scene from the episode. No "Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!" chant but I'll let that go...

Straightforward look in to Qyburn and his plan for the Mountain. Nothing much to say here.

Wasn't too bothered with Cersei coming clean to Tywin, but didn't like Jaime going along with it in Lord Commander's chambers. That and the botched 'not-rape' scene are kinda ruining the redemption arc.

Daenarys' scene in the Meereen throneroom was fantastic. Slight change with allowing the former slave to sign a contract rather than to voluntarliy become slaves again but it shouldn't have too much of an affect on the story. The actor playing the shepherd deserves a medal or something for that performance. Chaining up of the dragons was a little too easy but was done fairly well all the same.

Jon bringing Ygritte's body north of the wall and lighting the pyre was a good close to the season for the Wall/NW.

Fight between Brienne and the Hound was brilliant if not slightly frustrating with her meeting Arya. Glad the Hound was not given 'mercy'. Cleganebowl. Get hype

The Children looked great though I was slightly disappointed Bloodraven looked so human. Didn't really have the same effect as the book (no branch through the eye socket wtf?!). Jojen getting killed by the wights seemed a bit unnecessary. Thought his eerie death in the cave was one of the more striking images from the books. COTF grenades ftw.

Tyrion's adventures and escape. Tysha, "wherever whores go", Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack, Tysha, Moone Boy for all I know, Varys on ship, Tysha. Just felt rushed. I has a sad

*waiting for Stoneheart, "oh, they're showing the retrieval of the body from the rive...oh, it's Arya", "Credits? They must be delaying it to the very end", sitting patiently with a slight heart sinking feeling, "They're not going to show it, are they?", music changes slightly, "Here it comes!". Ends. Tear slowly rolls down cheek.

Season 4 Finale : HAVE read the books - spoilers possible

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