Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

I Heart Internet · 10-06-2014 10:32am

Obliq wrote: »

Alright, fair enough. I apologise. My reaction was based on how upset I am that there are, in fact, 100's of 1000's of people in Ireland with extremely negative experiences at the hands of (literally, for many) the same orders of priests and nuns you are always quick to defend. I am angry, but I shouldn't have directed that at you so sorry again.

Thanks Obliq. Appreciate your apology.

I think it's fair to say that different people had different experiences of schooling (with both lay and religious teachers) and interaction with priests and religious down through the years.

It wasn't all good and it wasn't all bad, I'm sure. I can only tell you of my own experience.

Spring Onion · 10-06-2014 10:41am

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Thanks Obliq. Appreciate your apology.

I think it's fair to say that different people had different experiences of schooling (with both lay and religious teachers) and interaction with priests and religious down through the years.

It wasn't all good and it wasn't all bad, I'm sure. I can only tell you of my own experience.

Go on IHI, tell us, your Da was a priest right?

Bishop Len Brennan perhaps?

Only messing of course!

I want to retract my statement above.

I Heart Internet · 10-06-2014 10:44am

Spring Onion wrote: »

Go on IHI, tell us, your Da was a priest right? Bishop Len Brennan perhaps?

Only messing of course!

I want to retract my statement above.

Father Clint Power was my Dad.

Your statement has been sent to the CDF for moderation.

Bannasidhe · 10-06-2014 10:45am

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Father Clint Power was my Dad.

Your statement has been sent to the CDF for moderation.

Catholic Defence Force?

I Heart Internet · 10-06-2014 10:47am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Catholic Defence Force?

Even better...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith

bumper234 · 10-06-2014 10:48am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Catholic Defence Force?

splitters!!!!!

Bannasidhe · 10-06-2014 10:49am

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Even better...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith

Same meat different gravy.

I Heart Internet · 10-06-2014 10:51am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Same meat different gravy.

Not really, since one exists and the other doesn't.

Spring Onion is in trouble now!

Bannasidhe · 10-06-2014 10:54am

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Not really, since one exists and the other doesn't.

Are you sure?

mrsbyrne · 10-06-2014 10:57am

Dodd wrote: »

When I told my Dad later in his life what it was like he was shocked.
He said that nun was good but that same nun sent us to the local shop to buy silver mints to cover the smell of drink she had every day.

If you found her in a good mood she was good but otherwise she was a nightmare.

Sorry I seem to be writing everything here that comes to mind from when I was in care.
I have never had an out let before and will stop now.

Thanks,bye.

I said I wouldn't post in this forum again Everyone but Dodd please ignore me. Keep posting Dodd your doing a great job. Its good to get this stuff off your chest. Don't worry you can't be identified. Everyone here is listening to you. People who don't know you, like me, care about you and hope you are feeling OK.

Obliq · 10-06-2014 11:04am

Just putting this out there....

There's some books I very much want to get hold of, preferably for no money

. Have ordered one through the Library, but someone here might already have it (*cough* I don't like the odds though...) and could look into it for relevant stuff. The other one is available in a book shop in Galway but I haven't a red cent on my card and no intention of going to Galway this week.

"Lovers of Liberty?" Local Government in 20th century Ireland - Diarmaid Ferriter (ordered through library)

History of Galway County Council - Gabriel O'Connor (in Charlie Byrne's bookshop, Galway - probably in County Council as well seeing as they published it)

You never know your luck in a small town, as they say....

Bannasidhe · 10-06-2014 11:24am

Obliq wrote: »

Just putting this out there....

There's some books I very much want to get hold of, preferably for no money . Have ordered one through the Library, but someone here might already have it (*cough* I don't like the odds though...) and could look into it for relevant stuff. The other one is available in a book shop in Galway but I haven't a red cent on my card and no intention of going to Galway this week.

"Lovers of Liberty?" Local Government in 20th century Ireland - Diarmaid Ferriter (ordered through library)

History of Galway County Council - Gabriel O'Connor (in Charlie Byrne's bookshop, Galway - probably in County Council as well seeing as they published it)

You never know your luck in a small town, as they say....

Add to your list

No birthright
A study of the Irish unmarried mother and her child : The Irish Times articles : An inquiry
by Michael Viney.
Published 1964 by [The Irish Times] in [Dublin] .

It was published in a booklet and used by the Sociology Dept in UCD so there should be a few copies knocking about the place.

Spring Onion · 10-06-2014 11:27am

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I said I wouldn't post in this forum again Everyone but Dodd please ignore me. Keep posting Dodd your doing a great job. Its good to get this stuff off your chest. Don't worry you can't be identified. Everyone here is listening to you. People who don't know you, like me, care about you and hope you are feeling OK.

Great to know you are lurking MrsB! You do know we have a PM facility?

pauldla · 10-06-2014 11:37am

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I said I wouldn't post in this forum again Everyone but Dodd please ignore me. Keep posting Dodd your doing a great job. Its good to get this stuff off your chest. Don't worry you can't be identified. Everyone here is listening to you. People who don't know you, like me, care about you and hope you are feeling OK.

Never say never, mrsbyrne.

I enjoy reading a variety of opinions, especially when they clash with my own. Indeed, the point of this forum is to actively engage with those of differing opinions. I hope you keep posting. But as Spring Onion points out, there is a PM function that you may find useful.

mrsbyrne · 10-06-2014 11:38am

Spring Onion wrote: »

Great to know you are lurking MrsB! You do know we have a PM facility?

Don't you think Dodds and all the Dodds out there have had enough of being told to "take it somewhere else'?
I'm sorry if my interruption of your thread has inconvenienced you. I think offering Dodds support in some small way is possibly a good enough excuse. You could always put us both on ignore.

Akrasia · 10-06-2014 11:42am

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Don't you think Dodds and all the Dodds out there have had enough of being told to "take it somewhere else'?
I'm sorry if my interruption of your thread has inconvenienced you. I think offering Dodds support in some small way is possibly a good enough excuse. You could always put us both on ignore.

You posted on the thread and told everyone but Dodd to ignore you. The only conclusion this leads to is that either you don't know how use the PM function, or that it was a public display of compassion for the purpose of appearing compassionate "I don't like to talk about all my charity work..."

Birroc · 10-06-2014 11:43am

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Don't you think Dodds and all the Dodds out there have had enough of being told to "take it somewhere else'?
I'm sorry if my interruption of your thread has inconvenienced you. I think offering Dodds support in some small way is possibly a good enough excuse. You could always put us both on ignore.

I thought you said you weren't posting again?

Spring Onion · 10-06-2014 11:45am

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Don't you think Dodds and all the Dodds out there have had enough of being told to "take it somewhere else'?
I'm sorry if my interruption of your thread has inconvenienced you. I think offering Dodds support in some small way is possibly a good enough excuse. You could always put us both on ignore.

Oh dear...

Obliq · 10-06-2014 11:49am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Add to your list

No birthright
A study of the Irish unmarried mother and her child : The Irish Times articles : An inquiry
by Michael Viney.
Published 1964 by [The Irish Times] in [Dublin] .

It was published in a booklet and used by the Sociology Dept in UCD so there should be a few copies knocking about the place.

Nice one. Found this thesis when googling that booklet, as she referenced it:

UNMARRIED MOTHERS: THE LEGISLATIVE CONTEXT IN IRELAND, 1921 – 79
By Ann – Marie Graham

http://eprints.nuim.ie/4000/1/M._Litt._Thesis.pdf

Additionally, most historians have focused on one source or topic, be that the various government enquiries, the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1935, or
emigration and repatriation. This thesis attempts to investigate the connection between social attitudes and social legislation by creating a genealogy of how social attitudes, social legislation and government reports and enquiries produced an environment, in terms of the law, which was not only hostile to but fearful of the unmarried mother and her child.

and

This thesis is essentially a chronological study and so chapter two deals with the period 1921 – 39. This chapter is particularly relevant in relation to the creation of the Irish Free State and how this affected the treatment of unmarried mothers. A number of acts are examined, most of which dealt with the unmarried mother or the sexual practice of Irish citizens. Moral order and the ‘moral code’ were particularly important concepts in this era and the legislation reflects this attitude. The legislation aimed to legislate for morality while attempting to eradicate sexual permissiveness. Statistical enquiries in the period suggests a need to improve the medical needs of unmarried mothers and children and the financial situation of the unmarried mother to care for her child – neither of which was achieved in this period.

Lots of interesting reading in here.

Bannasidhe · 10-06-2014 11:50am

In this article Fergus Finley http://linkis.com/irishexaminer.com/g1F7o refers to the Report of the Commission on the Relief of the Sick and Destitute Poor, including the Insane Poor that laid down government policy for decades to come. It is available to download here : http://www.lenus.ie/hse/handle/10147/238535 (big file!)

I will be off-line (and in no internet land) for about a day as I try and get head space to process information including the above.

If anyone has more info on our worthy civil moral guardians please PM me and I will read it when I return.

Cabaal · 10-06-2014 11:52am

Liveline from 6th June

http://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2014/0606/20140606_rteradio1-liveline-motherandb_c20593026_20593027_232_.mp3

Veronica called about the child she was forced to give up when she was 17. She was told the child had been given to a family but she learned the child had, in fact, died. She spoke of a life-time of grief.

The child was then buried without first contacting the mother, she was never informed the child was ill or had died until she found out herself. They claimed they were unable to contact her.

Seriously, what the ****!

About 15min in during that podcast you can hear a man talk about two twins that died at birth and were never baptised, you can hear how he fought against local people/religious people when it came to burying them and even just trying to get their names on a grave stone.

The man is close to tears telling the story and this all happened in 1988!

Bannasidhe · 10-06-2014 11:52am

Obliq wrote: »

Nice one. Found this thesis when googling that booklet, as she referenced it:

UNMARRIED MOTHERS: THE LEGISLATIVE CONTEXT IN IRELAND, 1921 – 79
By Ann – Marie Graham

http://eprints.nuim.ie/4000/1/M._Litt._Thesis.pdf

Additionally, most historians have focused on one source or topic, be that the various government enquiries, the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1935, or
emigration and repatriation. This thesis attempts to investigate the connection between social attitudes and social legislation by creating a genealogy of how social attitudes, social legislation and government reports and enquiries produced an environment, in terms of the law, which was not only hostile to but fearful of the unmarried mother and her child.

and

This thesis is essentially a chronological study and so chapter two deals with the period 1921 – 39. This chapter is particularly relevant in relation to the creation of the Irish Free State and how this affected the treatment of unmarried mothers. A number of acts are examined, most of which dealt with the unmarried mother or the sexual practice of Irish citizens. Moral order and the ‘moral code’ were particularly important concepts in this era and the legislation reflects this attitude. The legislation aimed to legislate for morality while attempting to eradicate sexual permissiveness. Statistical enquiries in the period suggests a need to improve the medical needs of unmarried mothers and children and the financial situation of the unmarried mother to care for her child – neither of which was achieved in this period.

Lots of interesting reading in here.

I linked that before but not sure if in this thread or the AH one.

Me head is only melted...

robindch · 10-06-2014 11:56am

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Everyone but Dodd please ignore me

If you want to contact a user directly, then why not try sending a "Private Message" (PM)? It's up in the top-right of your screen and you can message people privately, without having everybody read what you write.

Obliq · 10-06-2014 11:56am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I linked that before but not sure if in this thread or the AH one.

Me head is only melted...

Oh crap. Now we're doubling up on our findings. Anything specifically you'd like me to do/read for you? Might save a few of your brain cells

Bannasidhe · 10-06-2014 12:02pm

Obliq wrote: »

Oh crap. Now we're doubling up on our findings. Anything specifically you'd like me to do/read for you? Might save a few of your brain cells

If you could continue your investigation into who exactly the committee members were that would be excellent.

We already have one member of the majority FF government that was in power from 1932-1944. Thanks in no small par to the info you uncovered.

Lets see who else we can identify.

Obliq · 10-06-2014 12:07pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If you could continue your investigation into who exactly the committee members were that would be excellent.

We already have one member of the majority FF government that was in power from 1932-1944.

Lets see how else we can identify.

Oooh, I've been trying but am bogged down with the lack of records for the period we want - the committee of 1937. But of course, I'll get back on it. Sadly, there are a multitude of M.Quinns and M Connellys in Galway at that time.

Right. Bat cape donned.....to the bat cave!! (although I'm more Robin to your Batman, in fairness

)

Cabaal · 10-06-2014 12:07pm

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/10/human-lab-rats/

Below is a link to a November 2000 report by the then Chief Medical Officer [Dr Jim Kiely] regarding trials conducted on children in mother and child homes.

This is the report the Irish Times reported yesterday that the Department of Health is having difficulty tracking down.

It concerns the state allowing Wellcome to carry out medical trials in care homes in the early 1960s up to 1973.

The trials were overseen by Professor Patrick Meehan and Professor Irene Hillary both attached to the Medical Microbiology Department at University College Dublin.

The report runs to a brisk, readable if ghoulish 45 pages and we highly recommend it should you have the time and an interest in these matters.

The findings, such as they are – and known to at least four health ministers – reveal not just an obvious cover-up but also a level of ethical delinquency that may take your breath away.

Report is here http://www.lenus.ie/hse/bitstream/10147/249856/3/RepOn3ClinicalTrialsInvolvingBabiesAndChildrenInInstitutionalSettings1960611970and1973.pdf

mrsbyrne · 10-06-2014 12:07pm

Akrasia wrote: »

You posted on the thread and told everyone but Dodd to ignore you. The only conclusion this leads to is that either you don't know how use the PM function, or that it was a public display of compassion for the purpose of appearing compassionate "I don't like to talk about all my charity work..."

Scary stuff. Showing compassion publicly is clearly not "logical". Dodds should take his public purging of his pain and those who wish to sympathise with him away to a private room where its not offending the more enlightened.
A bit like take your slutty unwed mothers and hide them behind the convent walls and then we will all pretend they don't exist.
Show simple love and support publicly and risk being accused of glory hunting.
Posters need to take a long hard look st themselves.
Dodds, I'm sorry . You can see the way it is. Keep posting. There are some kind people here who will give you kindness.

Bannasidhe · 10-06-2014 12:11pm

Obliq wrote: »

Oooh, I've been trying but am bogged down with the lack of records for the period we want - the committee of 1937. But of course, I'll get back on it. Sadly, there are a multitude of M.Quinns and M Connellys in Galway at that time.

Right. Bat cape donned.....to the bat cave!! (although I'm more Robin to your Batman, in fairness )

Try the 1927/28 list.

Few unusual names there.

Obliq · 10-06-2014 12:13pm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Scary stuff. Showing compassion publicly is clearly not "logical". Dodds should take his public purging of his pain and those who wish to sympathise with him away to a private room where its not offending the more enlightened.
A bit like take your slutty unwed mothers and hide them behind the convent walls and then we will all pretend they don't exist.
Show simple love and support publicly and risk being accused of glory hunting.
Posters need to take a long hard look st themselves.
Dodds, I'm sorry . You can see the way it is. Keep posting. There are some kind people here who will give you kindness.

For goodness sake. If you would kindly read back a few pages, you'll see where people pleaded with Dodd to keep posting. I offered that if he wanted to PM me, he could and a number of others followed suit.

I had no intention of indicating by that that we would not like to see him post his experiences publicly, it was more an offer of support just in case he wanted to PM as well. Everybody here agrees we need to know, as a country, what happened to people, and Dodd's personal testimony is incredibly important.

I think our problem with your post has more to do with you popping up here with a request that we all ignore you. That's working out well for you, eh?

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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