The Hazards of Belief

Obliq · 11-03-2014 7:43pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Personally, I would like to hear both sides of the debate - I find it interesting how often I see the anti-side pilloried in an attack the poster kinda way..

I would too, but I have to admit to a certain bias against the angel-channelling, anti vaccine "girl against flouride" and the level of facebook (for example) wrong information out there.

Jernal wrote: »

Some of the anti-side are just like your average barmy creationists. A distinction needs to be drawn between those quacks though and people who hold reservations about fluoridation for less crazy reasons.

It would be nice if there were actual scientists with actual research and actual evidence brought into the debate. On both sides.

Bannasidhe · 11-03-2014 7:45pm

Jernal wrote: »

Some of the anti-side are just like your average barmy creationists. A distinction needs to be drawn between those quacks though and people who hold reservations about fluoridation for less crazy reasons.

Indeed.

I still find my interest is piqued when one side in any debate is pilloried via automatic association with the loony fringe. Happens with feminism too - mention feminism and bang it's all Dworkin and cries of extremism.

Silencing moderates by taunting them about extremists on 'their' side strikes me as a dishonest way to debate as it is really just a form of whataboutery attack.

Obliq · 11-03-2014 7:53pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Indeed.

I still find my interest is piqued when one side in any debate is pilloried via automatic association with the loony fringe. Happens with feminism too - mention feminism and bang it's all Dworkin and cries of extremism.

Silencing moderates by taunting them about extremists on 'their' side strikes me as a dishonest way to debate as it is really just a form of whataboutery attack.

True that. I deliberately haven't got in on this bun-fight because of that, from both sides. All of the anti's being classed as loony hippies and all of the pro's being accused of being in the pay of "big pharma". I just have a particular dislike of angel therapy and anti vaccine people, so won't listen to that particular person.

Mark Hamill · 11-03-2014 8:14pm

Jernal wrote: »

Some of the anti-side are just like your average barmy creationists. A distinction needs to be drawn between those quacks though and people who hold reservations about fluoridation for less crazy reasons.

What are the less crazy reasons for being against fluoridation?

Pherekydes · 11-03-2014 8:41pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

TV3 - they have moved on to Gee-Gee Racing now.

The news agencies in this country seem to be completely obsessed with gambling. (aka horse racing)

Turtwig · 12-03-2014 12:07am

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What are the less crazy reasons for being against fluoridation?

Medical ethics and libertarian arguments.

Turtwig · 12-03-2014 12:07am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Indeed.

I still find my interest is piqued when one side in any debate is pilloried via automatic association with the loony fringe. Happens with feminism too - mention feminism and bang it's all Dworkin and cries of extremism.

Silencing moderates by taunting them about extremists on 'their' side strikes me as a dishonest way to debate as it is really just a form of whataboutery attack.

Just pillored the quacks didn't mean to imply everyone who was anti-fluoride was a quack.

recedite · 12-03-2014 12:18am

endacl wrote: »

The Legion have a school in Wicklow.
http://www.dublinoakacademy.com/

I wouldn't have lasted long.

Holy crap, is that €34,000 a year in fees? Looks like a nice little earner for the legionaries.
You would have to be a Mexican drug lord to afford that, or a Columbian cannabis farmer.... oh wait....

Mark Hamill · 12-03-2014 12:24am

Jernal wrote: »

Medical ethics and libertarian arguments.

Pasteurisation and seat belt laws.

Bannasidhe · 12-03-2014 12:32am

Jernal wrote: »

Just pillored the quacks didn't mean to imply everyone who was anti-fluoride was a quack.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply you did.

It just struck me that I have seen the tactic I described used by others and it struck me interesting as it seems to stifle debate.

endacl · 12-03-2014 1:18am

recedite wrote: »

Holy crap, is that €34,000 a year in fees? Looks like a nice little earner for the legionaries.
You would have to be a Mexican drug lord to afford that, or a Columbian cannabis farmer.... oh wait....

I have a friend on staff. Who privately reeeeaaaaaalllly doesn't fit the guidelines in several ways. A lot of the kids are sent abroad to school to avoid the risk of kidnap at home.

I dunno. Maybe the ransom demand would be cheaper than five years fees plus flights? Six, if they do transition year!

:pac:

lazygal · 12-03-2014 1:46pm

http://m.thestar.com/#!/canada/measles-outbreak-closes-bc-school/6556192b24d536b90556dab24a0bf20b

More vaccine silliness.

biko · 16-03-2014 2:34pm

On the topic of "The Hazards of Belief"

One just fails to understand if Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) has any relevance in today’s Pakistan. Apparently the council has no other issue to ponder upon, other than women, marriages and rapes. Latest milestone achieved by CII this week was its ruling on laws which prohibit underage marriages. CII termed such laws as unfair as there can’t be, in council’s expert opinion, any age for marriage. We all know minor girls are married to aged men as part of deals out of tribal and family disputes, as part of penalties against girls’ families, Vani, Sawara — common practices in rural and tribal societies of Pakistan. Council recommendations to do away with marriage age is in fact an attempt to support and legalise such evil practices.
...
Council demanded to scrap the 1961 Family Laws which were enforced to discourage polygamy practices in the society. Not long ago CII refused to accept DNA test results as primary evidence to prove rape crimes against girls and women. It insisted to keep intact the Gen Zia’s legacy, Hudood Ordinance, wherein a rape victim has to produce four male eyewitnesses to prove that she has been raped. Council has also rejected Protection of Women Act of 2006 and declared its provisions are not in line with Islamic injunctions.

It appears that the council has become an institution whose only purpose is to work against women’s rights.

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/03/15/comment/still-living-in-dark-ages/

Hotblack Desiato · 19-03-2014 1:16am

A married ex-priest who says he isn't an ex-priest speaks out, kinda.

Priesthood and matrimony are not incompatible

Thirty-one years ago I received a dispensation from celibacy and married. I continue to be a priest because the sacrament of Orders is permanent, just like Baptism and Confirmation.

The solution to the vocations crisis is obvious - get them all signed up before puberty!

This negative attitude towards women goes back to the early Church and was based on the doctrine of dualism.

St Epifanio wrote: “A woman is a creature of the devil from her head to her feet. A man, on his part, is only such by half, from the waist upwards he is a creature of God. So the union in marriage between a man and a woman is therefore the work of the devil”.

What!!?! :eek:

Today, thank goodness, this anti-woman mentality of the early church does not exist

Nope, still very much there but they're smart enough to not say it.

....

Meanwhile, putting the boot on the other foot as it were -

Church of Ireland committee on sexuality had no gay members

Ms Tilson is a church warden at Belfast’s St George’s parish church. A lesbian, she was one of a three person CAI delegation which met the committee today.

She also told Committee members that “some gay Christian individuals and couples undergo terrible ordeals from other Christians because of their sexuality” and called on the Church of Ireland “to confront the problem of homophobia in the Church.”

Uh-oh, the H-word. Hope she doesn't get any letters looking for €80k..

Turtwig · 23-03-2014 2:29pm

rte.ie wrote:

German customs officials have intercepted a package addressed to the Vatican containing 14 condoms filled with cocaine.

Newspaper Bild am Sonntag said that a box packed with 340 grammes of cocaine valued at €40,000 were seized at the international airport in the eastern city of Leipzig in January.

The narcotics, posted from an unnamed South American country, were in liquid form and had been poured into the condoms and placed in the package addressed to the main postal centre at the Vatican.

Source. . .

.

Sulla Felix · 23-03-2014 3:35pm

St Bartholomew. Skinned and draped with his own hide. If that's not a hazard of belief I don't know what is.

Hotblack Desiato · 26-03-2014 12:52am

Book review - The Dark Box: A Secret History of Confession

Cornwell argues quite effectively that this outright rejection of confession “is a crucial symptom of a wider crisis within the Catholic Church”. This isn’t an altogether startling revelation, as the wider crisis just seems to widen revelation by revelation, but what Cornwell’s book collates for the reader is a multicentury historical context of how this gulf between Catholics and this specific sacrament of their faith evolved. They have not necessarily abandoned other aspects of the faith to this extent.

The Dark Box details the maze of directives around confession, by sometimes slightly barmy-sounding theological characters, who underestimated the deviant holy man’s ability to manufacture opportunities for depraved acts, while using the channel of confession both as a grooming post and a spot to obtain absolution from those abusive acts.

I highly recommend a stable position, with back support, when reading this book, as your stomach will churn as you read of the miserable, twisted layers of abuse, fear, shame and sexual exploitation inflicted on innocent children, who through the confession box became easy targets for paedophiles.

Devout adults likewise had their trust abused by a church that sought only to control and regulate its congregation, rather than understand or protect them from the aberrant urges of some of its own. All was carried out under the guise of the liturgy, the word of God, the need to absolve for sin, and avoid purgatory in the next life.

It wasn’t until the 13th century that Rome, under Pope Innocent III, made it obligatory for every Catholic to take confession annually or risk losing much, including burial rights.

^ Can I get this in writing? :pac:

Jimoslimos · 26-03-2014 5:39am

Obliq wrote: »

It would be nice if there were actual scientists with actual research and actual evidence brought into the debate. On both sides.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Indeed.

I still find my interest is piqued when one side in any debate is pilloried via automatic association with the loony fringe. Happens with feminism too - mention feminism and bang it's all Dworkin and cries of extremism.

Silencing moderates by taunting them about extremists on 'their' side strikes me as a dishonest way to debate as it is really just a form of whataboutery attack.

I'm disappointed given this forum argues vehemently against false equivalences when used by the religious. Creationist theories taught in science classes anyone? We don't need to give every crackpot theory equal weight in a debate for the sake of balance.

The anti-fluoride campaigners associated themselves with the loony fringe, they weren't pushed by anyone.

You could argue the efficacy and cost of mass treatment of the water supply as a public health initiative could be examined. Personally I think they are worth it overall but I'm far more likely to engage with those who can put up a logical argument against these points rather than descending into scaremongering and downright lies. Outlandish claims hinder rather than help the anti-fluoride campaigners' cause.

robindch · 26-03-2014 2:54pm

Jimoslimos wrote: »

The anti-fluoride campaigners associated themselves with the loony fringe, they weren't pushed by anyone.

Having read up fairly well on the fluoride-related claims of the anti-fluoride campaigners, let me assure you that they are the loony-fringe. Their nuttiness is a little bit more visible when it comes to "the pill causes the ghey" and stuff like that, but it's no less bonkers than any of the nonsense that they produce against fluoride.

And they're dishonest too - most of the principle, primary claims are trivially falsifiable with a few minutes googling. While their more complex claims, particularly ones that relate to the interpretation of scientific papers and results of court-cases, really are quite deceitfully presented.

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Outlandish claims hinder rather than help the anti-fluoride campaigners' cause.

Nonetheless, they work very effectively on social media.

Hotblack Desiato · 26-03-2014 8:34pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-26729484

Adding fluoride to water should be considered by councils in England to improve dental health, the government's public health advisory body says.

Public Health England urged councils to act after reviewing the impact of water fluoridation on children in areas where it has been introduced.

About 6m people - 10% of the country - currently live in areas with fluoridated water supplies.

PHE said it was a "safe and effective" public health measure.

PHE also looked for signs of harms but found none.

marienbad · 26-03-2014 9:22pm

ninja900 wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-26729484

Yeah but .....

Obliq · 27-03-2014 1:17am

This is gas

http://bulkhomeopathy.com/

One of the testimonies: "Thanks to Bulk Homeopathy, I can now treat my Morgellons disease and Wilson's temperature syndrome and still have money left over to buy Prayer Powder."
--Eric Smith

Many fun, such links, wow.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-03-2014 1:24am

marienbad wrote: »

Yeah but .....

But what?

It's one in the eye for the 'But the UK doesn't fluoridate' argument (which is false anyway, as some areas do and some have naturally occurring fluoride.)

Also,

PHE also looked for signs of harms but found none.

marienbad · 27-03-2014 1:49am

ninja900 wrote: »

But what?

It's one in the eye for the 'But the UK doesn't fluoridate' argument (which is false anyway, as some areas do and some have naturally occurring fluoride.)

Also,

But nothing, these groups will oppose no matter what .It is just a fact of life.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-03-2014 2:10am

So give up and let them win over public opinion then, is that it? Or what point if any are you trying to make?

Brian Shanahan · 27-03-2014 4:25pm

Obliq wrote: »

This is gas

http://bulkhomeopathy.com/

One of the testimonies: "Thanks to Bulk Homeopathy, I can now treat my Morgellons disease and Wilson's temperature syndrome and still have money left over to buy Prayer Powder."
--Eric Smith

Many fun, such links, wow.

I am especially amused by this one:

Torsten Phil wrote:

I am ensured of hydration, thanks to Bulk Homeopathy.

Well Torsten, buddy, I too am ensured of hydration, thanks to my opposable thumbs being able to turn on the cold water tap in my kitchen sink. Yay, me!

Edit:

Turns out the site is satirical.

Obliq · 27-03-2014 4:30pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Edit:
Turns out the site is satirical.

Well spotted ;-)

norrie rugger · 27-03-2014 4:34pm

Proof that homeopathic products contain medicine... even if only by accident

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-03/25/homeopathy-contains-medicine

Turtwig · 27-03-2014 5:09pm

norrie rugger wrote: »

The Article linked wrote:

People are often persuaded to try homeopathy by claims that homeopathic remedies have no side effects

Every substance has side effects anything that claims not to is either incredibly naive or lying.

norrie rugger · 27-03-2014 5:28pm

How did I end up quoted there?

The Hazards of Belief

Comments