Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

jonniebgood1 · 21-01-2014 3:17pm

Penncil Dick wrote: »

Here's the link to the CIF:
http://cif.ie/news-events/current-news/ciri/

One other important item I forgot to mention about it, contractors/companies have to renew their membership each year. So it's not a case of signing up once and then letting things like tax/insurance/CPD lapse, they have to provide that info each year to remain on the register.

From first glance I quote the CIF statement :"CIRI is being set up to try to distinguish legitimate construction companies/ sole traders from those who have given the industry a bad name. "

Most of the larger companies which caused problems in construction would have been members of the CIF so this sounds like rubbish to me. If you are a paid up member of the CIF you will be on CIRI automatically and I know of construction companies in this situation that still owe small fortunes to their sub-contractors (and are still working on government aided/ funded projects*). My point is that it seems unlikely that this register will have the effect that is stated.

(*if that breaks charter I can remove it)

sydthebeat · 22-01-2014 12:10pm

can anyone forsee if there will now be a restriction on those who can submit Fire safety Certificate applications under these regs?

4Sticks · 22-01-2014 1:25pm

I can foresee them restricting those who apply for planning permissions too . Hope I am wrong of course.

4Sticks · 22-01-2014 1:37pm

I have been reflecting back over the draft regs , and the the published SI's . Hogan , by being so unreasonable in imposing liabilities on "the holy three" and at the same excluding AT's and others from participation has successfully diverted energies away from those of us who instead could have pressured for what is in fact actually required to achieve a lift in building standards in in Ireland - an independent building control inspectorate. The RIAI in particular have played a craven role in the whole process.

Local authorities will continue to avoid liabilities by not visiting and inspecting sites and using the swingeing powers that they have. With great power comes no responsibility in this case.

Clients will still "buy" certification feeling " I am paying you , so where's my cert?" . The normalized functioning relationship between client and service provider ( arch/eng/surveyor) becomes dis-functional when compliance with building regs is part of the same appointment. Certifiers WILL come under real commercial pressure to "hand over" the certs. More Priory Halls will occur and this has been an opportunity missed.

4Sticks · 22-01-2014 1:45pm

The Department in a briefing session to Engineers Ireland on 17th January confirmed that anyone nominating themselves as builder may be deemed to be not compliant under the new regulations. Under the current regulations a “competent person” must be nominated by a building owner to undertake qualifying projects. The department and CIF representatives indicated that a competent person must be the Director or Principal of a Building Company with a minimum of 3 years building experience. On project completion the new regulation specifies that a “Principal of a Building Company” only may sign the builders completion certificate. The local authority can decide that the Completion Certificate is invalid if not signed by the Director or Principal of a Building Company and has the power to prohibit the owner from occupying or using the building indefinitely.

source

DvB · 22-01-2014 1:46pm

Quick one, it may be glaringly obvious but we're struggling to find out....

'IF' works (extension to a dwelling) of less than 40sq/m are proposed & planning is not a factor, does a commencement notice have to be lodged? & If so does it require submission on the e-register or as per current regulations as a hardcopy?

4Sticks · 22-01-2014 1:50pm

My opinion is that in practice one will have to. Not because the regs will require it ( they don't ) but because lending institutions will force it.

sydthebeat · 22-01-2014 1:53pm

4Sticks wrote: »

source

the end of 'direct labour' builds?

4Sticks · 22-01-2014 1:59pm

Only one thing for it now .....

Penn · 22-01-2014 2:00pm

DvB wrote: »

Quick one, it may be glaringly obvious but we're struggling to find out....

'IF' works (extension to a dwelling) of less than 40sq/m are proposed & planning is not a factor, does a commencement notice have to be lodged? & If so does it require submission on the e-register or as per current regulations as a hardcopy?

As 4Sticks said, you won't have to, but if it's how the majority of developments are being constructed, the banks will likely look for the same practice to be followed in terms of certification and inspection framework, even if it's not submitted to the local authority.

DvB · 22-01-2014 2:08pm

Penncil Dick wrote: »

As 4Sticks said, you won't have to, but if it's how the majority of developments are being constructed, the banks will likely look for the same practice to be followed in terms of certification and inspection framework, even if it's not submitted to the local authority.

Thats pretty much the conclusion we came to, clarification from the lending institution prior to commencement might not be a bad call, though can see them all looking for the framework to be followed in time.

4Sticks · 22-01-2014 2:40pm

I think we are seeing the end of undocumented construction works in Ireland. It will take time to die off - but it will die off.

archtech · 22-01-2014 2:56pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

can anyone forsee if there will now be a restriction on those who can submit Fire safety Certificate applications under these regs?

I believe at least one local authority will be trying to adopt that restriction. However under the Building Control Regulations, I believe that they can't.

Gumbo · 22-01-2014 4:51pm

4Sticks wrote: »

I think we are seeing the end of undocumented construction works in Ireland. It will take time to die off - but it will die off.

I think you are correct. A Dept rep was asked at yesterday's workshop and while not giving a concrete answer, the way it was floated was that it can no longer be done with the AC requiring ancillary Certs from the trades below him.

dathi · 22-01-2014 9:10pm

"the department and cif representative indicated that a competent person must be the director or principal of a building company with a minimum of 3 years building experience" does this not create a bar to new entrants to the market as on cif website you must show 3 years experience to be able to register but under new regs you cannot be contractor unless you are on the list

sydthebeat · 22-01-2014 9:39pm

dathi wrote: »

"the department and cif representative indicated that a competent person must be the director or principal of a building company with a minimum of 3 years building experience" does this not create a bar to new entrants to the market as on cif website you must show 3 years experience to be able to register but under new regs you cannot be contractor unless you are on the list

The registry will be voluntary at the start so previous experience would be necessary to register.
There will be a time when there will be competencies shown to register and that's when new entrants will get their chance. I'm sure it will be like electricians where apprentices are allowed wire one whole house, under inspection of a qualified electrician, in order to become qualified themselves.

This is a good thing and will stop cowboys with a 4x4 and mobile phone from setting themselves up as builders.
Also hopefully it will weed out the incompetent builders as certifiers will refuse to work with those they don't think are competent.

BillboyBaggins · 23-01-2014 11:07am

Does anyone know - to avoid going through the new regulations coming out, does the application need to be submitted or approved by March 1st 2014?

dathi · 23-01-2014 11:10am

sydthebeat wrote: »

This is a good thing and will stop cowboys with a 4x4 and mobile phone from setting themselves up as builders.
Also hopefully it will weed out the incompetent builders as certifiers will refuse to work with those they don't think are competent.

from ciri.ie "everyone from house builders to plasterers from road builders to plumbing specialists will be able to apply for listing on the register" at least a plumber has a level 6 qualification with which he can prove competency , but a "builder" still does not need a qualification only that he is tax compliant and has managed to stay in business for 3 years . while it is a start to weed out the non tax compliant, it is hardly a good way to weed out the 4x4 cowboys who are not competent builders.

Penn · 23-01-2014 11:12am

dathi wrote: »

from ciri.ie "everyone from house builders to plasterers from road builders to plumbing specialists will be able to apply for listing on the register" at least a plumber has a level 6 qualification with which he can prove competency , but a "builder" still does not need a qualification only that he is tax compliant and has managed to stay in business for 3 years . while it is a start to weed out the non tax compliant, it is hardly a good way to weed out the 4x4 cowboys who are not competent builders.

They have to provide references and examples of work they've done in order to get on the register, and there'll be annual CPD requirements in order to remain on the register.

sydthebeat · 23-01-2014 11:19am

dathi wrote: »

from ciri.ie "everyone from house builders to plasterers from road builders to plumbing specialists will be able to apply for listing on the register" at least a plumber has a level 6 qualification with which he can prove competency , but a "builder" still does not need a qualification only that he is tax compliant and has managed to stay in business for 3 years . while it is a start to weed out the non tax compliant, it is hardly a good way to weed out the 4x4 cowboys who are not competent builders.

better than nothing anyway....

but the way i see it there wll only be a select few 'assigned certifiers' working in particular areas. These assigned certifiers will quickly become, if not already, aware of the standards being produced by different registered builders. As the certifier is putting their balls on the line, they should not be slow about telling a client they wont certify particularly bad builders work.

sydthebeat · 23-01-2014 11:22am

BillboyBaggins wrote: »

Does anyone know - to avoid going through the new regulations coming out, does the application need to be submitted or approved by March 1st 2014?

the commencement notice needs to be submitted on or before Feb 28th.

that means the final grant of permission must be delivered by at least that date.

4Sticks · 23-01-2014 12:14pm

BillboyBaggins wrote: »

Does anyone know - to avoid going through the new regulations coming out, does the application need to be submitted or approved by March 1st 2014?

There is no "application". You are being required to demonstrate how you will be complying with building regulations with your Commencement Notice. you will have to have selected your builder and your certifying architect/engineer/surveyor. This whole process is not simple , it will be just as complex as making a planning in application insofar as there are many forms to fill and many drawings and specifications to be prepared. If you are asking this question now I believe there is a 99% probability you are too late.

dathi · 23-01-2014 1:22pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

better than nothing anyway....

but the way i see it there wll only be a select few 'assigned certifiers' working in particular areas. These assigned certifiers will quickly become, if not already, aware of the standards being produced by different registered builders. As the certifier is putting their balls on the line, they should not be slow about telling a client they wont certify particularly bad builders work.

yes i agree that this is the way certifiers will probably work.but this also gives rise to the problem that when the client asks a arch to design and cert house he will be told they only work with builder a or b resulting in little or no competition in tendering and higher costs to client.

sydthebeat · 23-01-2014 1:37pm

dathi wrote: »

yes i agree that this is the way certifiers will probably work.but this also gives rise to the problem that when the client asks a arch to design and cert house he will be told they only work with builder a or b resulting in little or no competition in tendering and higher costs to client.

but to have true 'competition' standards have to be comparable.

Its not a loss of competition if a certifier says he has experienced many problems with builder X's work therefore he wont certify the clients build if he uses him.
im sure most clients would be delighted to get such honest prior warnings.

Im talking here about the obvious cowboys eg the DIY timber framers, the ones who insist on internal drylining etc. Most of the building contractor still working through the recession are good decent builders, they have to be to survive. however i experienced the emergence of complete chancers during the boom and hopefully these regs will keep those guys out of the industry completely.

4Sticks · 24-01-2014 12:06pm

A view from the UK

sydthebeat · 27-01-2014 10:58am

im hearing of figures of 8% of construction costs to administer these new regs...

so on a 200K tender thats 16k

wirehairmax · 27-01-2014 11:49am

sydthebeat wrote: »

im hearing of figures of 8% of construction costs to administer these new regs...

so on a 200K tender thats 16k

Hard to justify that sort of cost. Will the "assigned certifier" be on site every day?
What are the requirement to become an "assigned certifier" ? Sounds like a riai figure of 8%

sydthebeat · 27-01-2014 11:55am

wirehairmax wrote: »

Hard to justify that sort of cost. Will the "assigned certifier" be on site every day?
What are the requirement to become an "assigned certifier" ? Sounds like a riai figure of 8%

engineers figure actually...

and the frequency of site inspection must match:

The building control process, in order to be effective, requires an Inspection Plan of appropriate intensity and frequency. However, it is not practicable for every item of work to which the Building Regulations relate to be examined. The supervision by the Builder is, therefore, of critical importance. The test of the Inspection Plan will be its success in achieving reasonable standards of health and safety in or about buildings, energy conservation, accessibility and sustainability for building users.

while the industry amalgamates to these regulations im afraid those figures will possibly be the norm.

BryanF · 27-01-2014 11:59am

The keeping up on the paper trail of each material and workman along with as-builds etc is a factor here also

4Sticks · 27-01-2014 12:44pm

wirehairmax wrote: »

What are the requirement to become an "assigned certifier" ? Sounds like a riai figure of 8%

a person named on a register maintained pursuant to Part 3 or Part 5
of the Building Control Act 2007 or Section 7 of the Institution of Civil Engineers
of Ireland (Charter Amendment) Act 1969

In other words only RIAI members , Chartered Engineers and a limited number of surveyors.

The RIAI has formally welcomed the changes .....

Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

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