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Pure in heart abstinence only education
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That's the eternal struggle for the 'good ones': hang in there and try to change the original thing for the better of all, or walk away and leave the original thing go even more haywire than it already is because there's nobody left to 'temper' it. Loads of good people are hanging in there, and fair play to them. And some of us drew a line and walked away before the cynicism ate us alive.
Still. I think a broader recognition of the complexity of the issues and a willingness to support the good ones who are trying to change things would go a long way towards effecting much-needed change. Telling the good Catholics that they're all the same as the rotten ones... just pushes them into a deeper silence and an even more disempowered place than they're already in.
That's just my 2c anyway.
With all due respect, I think the 'good ones' are actually doing more harm than good by 'hanging in there'. By identifying as Catholic (via the census etc.) they are inflating the Church's numbers which are used by the 'bad ones' to **** all over everyone else (Catholic or non-Catholic) in relation to education, marriage rights, reproductive rights etc.0 -
With all due respect, I think the 'good ones' are actually doing more harm than good by 'hanging in there'. By identifying as Catholic (via the census etc.) they are inflating the Church's numbers which are used by the 'bad ones' to **** all over everyone else (Catholic or non-Catholic) in relation to education, marriage rights, reproductive rights etc.
The trouble is: being Catholic isn't simply a matter of identifying with the lager Church body. That's only the political aspect of a far more complex overarching spiritual / faith reality. And for most of the 'good ones', the spirituality is the thing that appeals, NOT the politics. And sure many of them are in deep denial about how insidious the politics are/is (grammar has gone to the Bushmills, I'm afraid!), and being Catholic can't be extricated from the political reality no matter how little enthusiasm people have for that aspect.
That's the reason I bailed: coming to the insight that the politics is an unavoidable part of the deal, and needing to make my non-agreement count for something. But on nights like Christmas Eve, there's a part of me that is sad about the spirituality that I've lost for having walked away. Wouldn't I just love to be able to go to church and sing 'O Holy Night' and believe that the world could ever be like that! But nope... once you've taken the red pill there's no easy plugging back into the Matrix. Do feel for the ones who haven't yet realised what the machine is really like, and tiny bit envy them their cosy Christmas where God is in his heaven and all is right with the world...
Anyhoo... cheers to the rest of us, may the bottom layer of our Maslow's hierarchy of needs be sorted even if our upper layers aren't0 -
The trouble is: being Catholic isn't simply a matter of identifying with the lager Church body. That's only the political aspect of a far more complex overarching spiritual / faith reality. And for most of the 'good ones', the spirituality is the thing that appeals, NOT the politics. And sure many of them are in deep denial about how insidious the politics are/is (grammar has gone to the Bushmills, I'm afraid!), and being Catholic can't be extricated from the political reality no matter how little enthusiasm people have for that aspect.That's the reason I bailed: coming to the insight that the politics is an unavoidable part of the deal, and needing to make my non-agreement count for something. But on nights like Christmas Eve, there's a part of me that is sad about the spirituality that I've lost for having walked away. Wouldn't I just love to be able to go to church and sing 'O Holy Night' and believe that the world could ever be like that! But nope... once you've taken the red pill there's no easy plugging back into the Matrix. Do feel for the ones who haven't yet realised what the machine is really like, and tiny bit envy them their cosy Christmas where God is in his heaven and all is right with the world...
Anyhoo... cheers to the rest of us, may the bottom layer of our Maslow's hierarchy of needs be sorted even if our upper layers aren't0 -
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and as we know, abstinence means you can still use gods loop hole
NSFW
Be a good question to ask them :pac:
Is this 'counsel of defeat' all that Secularism can offer our teens?
The Abstinence Programme is working in America ... and here is what it's like for the misfortunate British teens who are part of the 'pseudo-liberal' society you guys seem to want to foist on the rest of society.
Britain makes contraception freely available to under-age teens ... and yet there are 100,000 teen pregnancies per year and one in five UK teens with Chlamydia ... to say nothing about Syphilis and (life-long) HIV ... or the serious psychological damage that sex abuse between under-age children causes.:(
Christians offer a viable alternative ... children aren't feral animals ... they are thoughtful moral actors who need the responsible support of adults to not destroy their lives by engaging in promiscuity and other risky behaviour ... and to move teen peer-pressure from engaging in casual sex ... to simply saying 'NO' to drink, drugs ... and under-age promiscuity.
Under-age drink, drugs and sex are all destructive and in combination they are disasterous!!!
A basic principle of education is to avoid 'learning the hard way' ... by not making the same mistakes that other people have already made!!!
That is why we legally proscribe under-age drinking ... and under-age sex ... and supporting the former whilst making a joke of the latter is utter hypocracy ... and grossly irresponsible!!!:(
... and that is why the Abstinance programmes are such an outstanding success amongst under-age teens in America ... and fully supported by many responsible parents.
We need to change behaviour when it comes to under-age sex ... and Abstinance programmes work ... while the apparent alternative of throwing your 13 year-old a packet of condoms and putting her on the pill, and letting her off to engage in under-age sex abuse with God knows who (with God knows what STD) ... while relying on micro-thin latex not bursting or being used incorrectly by a drunken teen ... is outrageous IMO.0 -
I want to laugh but its so depressing someone can actually believe that crap when even a cursory search on the internet proves otherwise0
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... and lets call it what it is ... statutory rape amongst and to children!!!.
Hysterical crap....
Is this 'counsel of defeat' all that Secularism can offer our teens?.
It's not a war....
The Abstinence Programme is working in America ... .
Not in the US or in Africa.
....
We need to change behaviour when it comes to under-age sex ... and Abstinance programmes work ... while the apparent alternative of throwing your 13 year-old a packet of condoms and putting her on the pill, and letting her off to engage in under-age sex abuse with God knows who (with God kows what STD) ... is downright criminal IMO.
The scandanavian approach works. Yours doesn't.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm
http://www.dutchdailynews.com/teen-pregnancy-rates-at-an-all-time-low/0 -
You're trivialising a very serious issue ... the disaster that abstinence only "education" is causing in terms of STDs, sterility when they later marry and want a baby
I fixed your post for you. Abstinence only education is a cause of teenage pregnancy.... and lets call it what it is ... statutory rape amongst and of children!!!
Leading to baby murder as well I suppose? Yeah you shouting idiotic slogans at the top of your voice (with really weird punctuation) doesn't make them any less idiotic. Though it does make you look stupid.Is this 'counsel of defeat' all that Secularism can offer our teens?
No, a secular eduaction offers policy based on evidence, and not the empty rhetoric of a group of beardy old paedophiles 2,500 years dead.The Abstinence Programme is not working in America as the areas where it is implemented have seen teenage pregnancy spiral in the last decade, after a sharp decline resultant of educational policies which actually educated students
Fixed this part too.
And do you know what, I've got things to do which are more useful to humanity than correcting your insane ramblings, like scratching my testes. So I'll leave it at that.0 -
Nodin wrote:
The scandanavian approach works. Yours doesn't.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm
http://www.dutchdailynews.com/teen-pregnancy-rates-at-an-all-time-low/
I realise correlation does not equal causation its fascinating that according to the second link you posted Nodin, the highest pregnancy rate is in the Antilles, where the Christian faith is a lot more prevalent than Mainland Holland0 -
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Hysterical crap.
It's not a war.
Not in the US or in Africa.
The scandanavian approach works. Yours doesn't.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm
http://www.dutchdailynews.com/teen-pregnancy-rates-at-an-all-time-low/0 -
I have no problem with Sex Education ... but it needs to deliver results in terms of reduced teen pregancy and STD rates ... and 100,000 teen pregnancies and one in five British teens with Chlamydia isn't delivering anything but untold misery and misfortune!!:(
This may come as a complete shock, but there's more to the world than Britain. Evidently - presuming that what you say is true - they're doing something wrong. The Scandavians offer sex education that works, and its not "abstinence" based.0 -
I realise correlation does not equal causation its fascinating that according to the second link you posted Nodin, the highest pregnancy rate is in the Antilles, where the Christian faith is a lot more prevalent than Mainland Holland
I think that fits nicely with the reality of things. Abstinance only programmes create young people that are not ready for the realities of life. People have sex. These idiotic programmes prevent young people from knowing how to do it safely.
Hyperbole aside, JC, as usual, hasn't got a fcuking clue what he is talking about. This is most likey due to the fact that he couldn't recognise evidence if it walked up to him on the street, bent him over and sodomised him.
Young people will have sex. My preference is for them to leave it until they are older, but I want them to be knowledgable enough to be able to do it safely. Running round shouting "thou shalt not have sex" challenges creationism for levels of retardedness.
MrP0 -
Brian Shanahan wrote: »I fixed your post for you. Abstinence only education is a cause of teenage pregnancy.
What we're talking about is Abstinance Pledges where teens pledge to abstain from sex ... of course they have all of the sex education of their promiscuous peers when it comes to contraception and sex in general ... and most will use it when they are older and in stable relationships.
What we're talking about is changing behaviour from teen peer pressure to engage in all kinds of risky behaviour in relation to sex, drink and drugs ... and change it to teen peer pressure to abstain from sex drink and drugs.Brian Shanahan wrote: »Leading to baby murder as well I suppose? Yeah you shouting idiotic slogans at the top of your voice (with really weird punctuation) doesn't make them any less idiotic. Though it does make you look stupid.
... children that can't legally smoke or drink ... for the very same reason, that they don't have the maturity to do so!!!Brian Shanahan wrote: »No, a secular eduaction offers policy based on evidence, and not the empty rhetoric of a group of beardy old paedophiles 2,500 years dead.
Of course Christian Abstinance Pledges are actually based on the New Testament imperative to respect onself and ones fellow Human Beings!!!
.. and the 100,000 teen recipients who become pregnant each year in Britain and one in five with Chlamydia adds up to a big 'fail' for everyone involved !!!Brian Shanahan wrote: »Fixed this part too.Brian Shanahan wrote: »And do you know what, I've got things to do which are more useful to humanity than correcting your insane ramblings, like scratching my testes. So I'll leave it at that.
you have lost the argument already.0 -
Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,307 CMod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 17052
Abstinence only sex education? Oh good. One of my pet peeves. An incredibly naive and simplistic approach to this issue that comes across as being more about inducing guilt and proselytizing than dealing with a complex topic. When I was in secondary school we got sex ed through science class (if seeing a video of a woman giving birth when you're 13-14 doesn't make you cringe I don't know what will), more in R.E. class (just the facts, ma'am), some chastity advocates who brought some levity to the situation and an outside expert who covered everything again. I can't think what else could have made what we got more comprehensive - some LGBT content, I guess, but that's a can of worms that'll obviously turn people gay.
Let me be clear, though. I'm in favour of people saying 'no', if that is what they want on what they are feeling. However, 'no' should not be taught solely on a 'this is wrongz!!!11111!' basis, which is the vibe that tends to come from the abstinence only camp. Everyone should have the right to say no with confidence, and crucially, the person hearing the no should be taught to respect it. If they don't and keep piling on the pressure it means they're a dick.
As for abstinence only working...Abstinence from sexual intercourse is an important behavioral strategy for preventing human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), other sexually transmitted infections (STIs), and pregnancy among adolescents. Many adolescents, including most younger adolescents, have not initiated sexual intercourse and many sexually experienced adolescents and young adults are abstinent for varying periods of time. There is broad support for abstinence as a necessary and appropriate part of sexuality education. Controversy arises when abstinence is provided to adolescents as a sole choice and where health information on other choices is restricted or misrepresented. Although abstinence is theoretically fully effective, in actual practice abstinence often fails to protect against pregnancy and STIs. Few Americans remain abstinent until marriage; many do not or cannot marry, and most initiate sexual intercourse and other sexual behaviors as adolescents. Although abstinence is a healthy behavioral option for teens, abstinence as a sole option for adolescents is scientifically and ethically problematic. A recent emphasis on abstinence-only programs and policies appears to be undermining more comprehensive sexuality education and other government-sponsored programs. We believe that abstinence-only education programs, as defined by federal funding requirements, are morally problematic, by withholding information and promoting questionable and inaccurate opinions. Abstinence-only programs threaten fundamental human rights to health, information, and life.
SourceAbstract
Purpose
The role that sex education plays in the initiation of sexual activity and risk of teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease (STD) is controversial in the United States. Despite several systematic reviews, few epidemiologic evaluations of the effectiveness of these programs on a population level have been conducted.
Methods
Among never-married heterosexual adolescents, aged 15–19 years, who participated in Cycle 6 (2002) of the National Survey of Family Growth and reported on formal sex education received before their first sexual intercourse (n = 1719), we compared the sexual health risks of adolescents who received abstinence-only and comprehensive sex education to those of adolescents who received no formal sex education. Weighted multivariate logistic regression generated population-based estimates.
Results
Adolescents who received comprehensive sex education were significantly less likely to report teen pregnancy (ORadj = .4, 95% CI = .22– .69, p = .001) than those who received no formal sex education, whereas there was no significant effect of abstinence-only education (ORadj = .7, 95% CI = .38–1.45, p = .38). Abstinence-only education did not reduce the likelihood of engaging in vaginal intercourse (ORadj = .8, 95% CI = .51–1.31, p = .40), but comprehensive sex education was marginally associated with a lower likelihood of reporting having engaged in vaginal intercourse (ORadj = .7, 95% CI = .49–1.02, p = .06). Neither abstinence-only nor comprehensive sex education significantly reduced the likelihood of reported STD diagnoses (ORadj = 1.7, 95% CI = .57–34.76, p = .36 and ORadj = 1.8, 95% CI = .67–5.00, p = .24 respectively).
Conclusions
Teaching about contraception was not associated with increased risk of adolescent sexual activity or STD. Adolescents who received comprehensive sex education had a lower risk of pregnancy than adolescents who received abstinence-only or no sex education.
SourceModerator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.
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I think that fits nicely with the reality of things. Abstinance only programmes create young people that are not ready for the realities of life. People have sex. These idiotic programmes prevent young people from knowing how to do it safely.
Quote Wikipedia:-
In 2010, the teenage birth rate in the United States reached a historic low: 34.3 births per 1,000 women aged 15–19.[16] More than three-quarters of these births are to adult women aged 18 or 19.[16] In 2005 in the U.S., the majority (57%) of teen pregnancies resulted in a live birth, 27% ended in an induced abortion, and 16% in a fetal loss. [17]
The U.S. teen birth rate was 53 births per 1,000 women aged 15–19 in 2002,[5] the highest in the developed world.[8] If all pregnancies, including those that end in abortion or miscarriage, are taken into account, the total rate in 2000 was 75.4 pregnancies per 1,000 girls. Nevada and the District of Columbia have the highest teen pregnancy rates in the U.S., while North Dakota has the lowest.[18] Over 80% of teenage pregnancies in the U.S. are unintended;[19] approximately one third end in abortion, one third end in spontaneous miscarriage, and one third will continue their pregnancy and keep their baby.[20]
However, the trend is decreasing: in 1990, the birth rate was 61.8, and the pregnancy rate 116.9 per thousand. This decline has manifested across all racial groups, although teenagers of African-American and Hispanic descent retain a higher rate, in comparison to that of European-Americans and Asian-Americans. The Guttmacher Institute attributed about 25% of the decline to abstinence and 75% to the effective use of contraceptives.[18]
... so Abstinence Pledges are working and they directly account for 25% of the dramatic reduction in teen births over the past ten years (down from 53 to 34 per thousand teen births)
... and that is not even taking into account the fact that more than 75% of teen births in America are to adult women aged 18-19 who may be in stable relationships and have benefitted from an Abstinence Pledge before they became pregnant.
... or the effect that Abstinence Pledges are having on ensuring more responsible and effective use of contraception when teens wait to engage in sex in more stable relationships ... rather than in drunken high risk 'one night stands' in some back alley.Hyperbole aside, JC, as usual, hasn't got a fcuking clue what he is talking about. This is most likey due to the fact that he couldn't recognise evidence if it walked up to him on the street, bent him over and sodomised him.Young people will have sex. My preference is for them to leave it until they are older, but I want them to be knowledgable enough to be able to do it safely. Running round shouting "thou shalt not have sex" challenges creationism for levels of retardedness.
MrP
... and Abstinance Pledges are working spectacularily well at changing teen behaviour for the better in America ...
... while treating young people like feral animals (who supposedly have no control over their sexual behaviour) have failed spectacularily!!!:)0 -
Never mind, silly comment0
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Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,307 CMod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 17052
Abstention is not the silver bullet advocates think it is. Policing people's personal, social and health behaviours based on a narrow range of ideas 'just don't do it!!' can never be the answer.
Oops.Other scientific data also challenge the federal government’s efforts to promote abstinence-only strategies. The limited evaluations of abstinence-only sex education programs provide no evidence that they are successful in delaying initiation of sexual intercourse.22 Although abstinence is theoretically highly effective in preventing unintended pregnancies and sexually transmitted infections (STIs), in actual practice abstinence intentions often fail.14,23 Abstinence programs may undermine the promotion of other prevention behaviors. For example, a longitudinal examination of the virginity pledge movement showed that pledgers did delay initiation of sexual intercourse; however, they were less likely to use contraception when they initiated sexual activity and were less likely to seek STI screenings.24
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1716232/Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.
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The Black Oil wrote: »Abstention is not the silver bullet advocates think it is. Policing people's personal, social and health behaviours based on a narrow range of ideas 'just don't do it!!' can never be the answer.
Oops.
Behaviour modification and the encouragement of peer pressure towards self-control are key issues in sex education and indeed the effective use of contraception.
Just throwing a pack of condoms and a box of pill at the problem while mouthing pious platitudes about 'staying safe' isn't working ... and when you really think about it ... how could it?
... and you need to remember that a Secularist's child who is peer-pressured into unwanted and unwise sexual activity is just as vulnerable ... and just as hurt by the experience, as any other child!!!
That is why I thought that (at least some Secularists) would have common ground with me on this issue ... but the universal dismissal of Abstinence Pledges and their trivialisation on this thread says otherwise.0 -
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The Black Oil wrote: »Quote:
Other scientific data also challenge the federal government’s efforts to promote abstinence-only strategies. The limited evaluations of abstinence-only sex education programs provide no evidence that they are successful in delaying initiation of sexual intercourse.22 Although abstinence is theoretically highly effective in preventing unintended pregnancies and sexually transmitted infections (STIs), in actual practice abstinence intentions often fail.14,23 Abstinence programs may undermine the promotion of other prevention behaviors. For example, a longitudinal examination of the virginity pledge movement showed that pledgers did delay initiation of sexual intercourse; however, they were less likely to use contraception when they initiated sexual activity and were less likely to seek STI screenings.24
Oops.
That's the objective of Abstinence Pledges ... to avoid STDs and the need to test for them, in the first place!!!
... and to allow people to have normal sexual relations leading to pregnancy, when they are ready to have children ... and not to have a life-long STD that prevents both unprotected sex and pregnancy.
You guys seem to classify success as some kind of 'pseudo-liberal failure' ... and failure as 'success'!!!:eek:0 -
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Well, how I interpreted was that they almost didn't know what contraceptives were for, or how to use them. Sounding like they're not literate in terms of sexual health. That's hardly a positive, then? If people want to wait, I'm not going to judge or berate them for it.Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.
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I mentioned my own school based sex education experiences earlier. It didn't seem to set half (any?) the class off out sleeping with this and that. I don't recall any one being pregnant - there were rumours, of course. It's not that throwing condoms or the pill at it is the answer alone. That must be part of a broader context of emotional maturity, confident decision making (again let me highlight including say no), having good friends and role models (usually within your peer group is better, not celebrities - I think we can all agree on that). We all took the alcohol pledge around the time of confirmation in primary school, but it came across as stupid and simplistic and most ignored it in secondary school. I think the more mystique we create around an issue like this or sex the more we drive it underground. FWIW, I think there are some occasional, responsible portrayals of this delicate issue in popular culture - Friday Night Lights, iirc. I think also it would be worth discussing problems with pornography in the classroom context to get the message across that it should be taken with a huge grain of salt. I think there are experts who could come from an external source to a school. The online version of this stuff was not accessible when I was that age and it's the elephant that's in the room.
This should not be an issue that is split into religious or non-religious camps. However, the US based advocates of abstinence seem to beating a particular drum that I certainly can't march to. Handwringing, bent on a particular path from people who might (usually) otherwise favour small government and yet this simplistic approach is top of their agenda for sex education and social control?
We are all too quick to pathologise youth. We don't listen to them enough.
But, hey ho. It's Christmas.
Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.
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The Black Oil wrote: »Well, how I interpreted was that they almost didn't know what contraceptives were for, or how to use them. Sounding like they're not literate in terms of sexual health. That's hardly a positive, then? If people want to wait, I'm not going to judge or berate them for it.
There are no young people today who don't know about contraception ...
and all about the biology and physics of sex.
However, there are many young people who are being peer-pressured into unwise sexual activity ... and the Abstinence Pledge is just one initiative to help change under-age sexual behaviour (and peer pressure) in an appropriate and responsible direction.0 -
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Seriously? You think they are all clued up and most guys know about a girl's menstrual cycle? Do some Googling of teenage based discussion forums and you may find some are more hungry for information than they are for sex.Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.
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The Black Oil wrote: »This should not be an issue that is split into religious or non-religious camps. However, the US based advocates of abstinence seem to beating a particular drum that I certainly can't march to. Handwringing, bent on a particular path from people who might (usually) otherwise favour small government and yet this simplistic approach is top of their agenda for sex education and social control?The Black Oil wrote: »We are all too quick to pathologise youth. We don't listen to them enough.
As adults we're supposed to know more than children about living a happy and successful life ... although, judging by some of the more irresponsible views expressed on this thread, this would not seem to be the case for all of the adults posting here!!!The Black Oil wrote: »But, hey ho. It's Christmas.0 -
The Black Oil wrote: »Seriously? You think they are all clued up and most guys know about a girl's menstrual cycle? Do some Googling of teenage based discussion forums and you may find some are more hungry for information than they are for sex.
The biggest issue is not one of information (although there may be limited exceptions) ... the big issue is one of risky and age-inappropriate sexual behaviour ... and this needs to change for the sake of all of our children.
It sounds like such change will come first from Christian-ethos schools ... as the Secularists on this thread seem to be more interested in 'rubbishing' it.
... and now I'm definitely going to re-join in the Christmas festivities and have that drink!!!!0 -
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The Black Oil wrote: »This should not be an issue that is split into religious or non-religious camps. However, the US based advocates of abstinence seem to beating a particular drum that I certainly can't march to. Handwringing, bent on a particular path from people who might (usually) otherwise favour small government and yet this simplistic approach is top of their agenda for sex education and social control?
Actually the religious right don't give two ****s about the size of the government, as long as its a murderous, autocratic theocracy.0
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