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Gerry Adams to run for President ?
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timthumbni wrote: »Yeah because we all take adams at his word in Northern Ireland.
He's known up here as "Honest Gerry" Well amongst shinner bots anyway.
Ok, so, to hell with the courts, let's just go with what everybody "knows."
I heard Peter Robinson was in the UVF and that Enda Kenny was a founding member of Combat 18. They've never been convicted of this so it must be true. Im so glad I have free reign to accuse anyone of anything I want. There's no way this could possibly go wrong0 -
Have you evidence of that? none exists, no charges etc despite him inviting McDowell to arrest him if he had evidence of this. Adams has always said he's proud of his association with the IRA but was never a member so he can only be taken at his word. Members of our current government could also be called ex-OIRA members everytime people refer to them but this is of course not labelled at them
The "Republic of Ireland" is a description of the state and not the offical name of the state, he might or might not become "President of Ireland" that's upto the people to decide if Sinn Fein do decide to nominate Adams next time around.
Plenty of anecdotal evidence, plenty of books and even ex-ira men confirming Adams membership of the IRA. Of course Adams should face trial over his alleged involvement in the order of execution of jean mcconville amoung others, but that will never happen because the powers that be won't destabilise the peace process. But if it makes you feel better we can carry on playing lets pretend0 -
Oh come on don't be obtuse you and I both know whether he's guilty or not is relevant. He won't be arrested because it would put the peace process ack years. Justice and evidence doesn't come into it.Crooked Jack wrote: »Ok, so, to hell with the courts, let's just go with what everybody "knows."
I heard Peter Robinson was in the UVF and that Enda Kenny was a founding member of Combat 18. They've never been convicted of this so it must be true. Im so glad I have free reign to accuse anyone of anything I want. There's no way this could possibly go wrong0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »Oh come on don't be obtuse you and I both know whether he's guilty or not is relevant. He won't be arrested because it would put the peace process ack years. Justice and evidence doesn't come into it.
Other than somebody 'saying' he was in the IRA, where is the incontrovertible evidence in these books etc?
I don't know if he was or not, but I can see sense in somebody who wanted to develop a political way forward seeing it as important to be removed from the military end.0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »Oh come on don't be obtuse you and I both know whether he's guilty or not is relevant. He won't be arrested because it would put the peace process ack years. Justice and evidence doesn't come into it.
So courts for everybody else, "sure the dogs on the street know" for the people you don't like. Yeah, I'm the one being obtuse.
Personally, I dont care if he was in the IRA or not, although the notion that the cops or British government would hold back arresting republicans in order to protect the peace process is laughable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormontgate
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local-news/i-ll-take-claudy-arrest-to-my-grave-brolly-1-2148584
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22625104
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/detectives-arrest-the-surgeon-in-connection-with-iras-probe-into-killing-of-robert-mccartney-29099954.html0 -
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Crooked Jack wrote: »So courts for everybody else, "sure the dogs on the street know" for the people you don't like. Yeah, I'm the one being obtuse.
Personally, I dont care if he was in the IRA or not, although the notion that the cops or British government would hold back arresting republicans in order to protect the peace process is laughable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormontgate
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local-news/i-ll-take-claudy-arrest-to-my-grave-brolly-1-2148584
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22625104
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/detectives-arrest-the-surgeon-in-connection-with-iras-probe-into-killing-of-robert-mccartney-29099954.html
Exactly, it may be politic now not to arrest, but if they could have pinned it on him back in the day, is there anyone seriously suggesting that they wouldn't have?
There was never any solid evidence.0 -
They don't need evidence because they have no intention of arresting him. And yes as much as it is an insult to the many families who have relatives killed by that scum Gerry will continue to walk free as the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.Crooked Jack wrote: »So courts for everybody else, "sure the dogs on the street know" for the people you don't like. Yeah, I'm the one being obtuse.
Personally, I dont care if he was in the IRA or not, although the notion that the cops or British government would hold back arresting republicans in order to protect the peace process is laughable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormontgate
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local-news/i-ll-take-claudy-arrest-to-my-grave-brolly-1-2148584
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22625104
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/detectives-arrest-the-surgeon-in-connection-with-iras-probe-into-killing-of-robert-mccartney-29099954.html0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »who have relatives killed by that scum Gerry
I wonder would we be allowed to say unproven stuff like that about other Dail deputies on these forums?0 -
What is this, star trek?Iwasfrozen wrote: »They don't need evidence because they have no intention of arresting him. And yes as much as it is an insult to the many families who have relatives killed by that scum Gerry will continue to walk free as the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »They don't need evidence because they have no intention of arresting him. And yes as much as it is an insult to the many families who have relatives killed by that scum Gerry will continue to walk free as the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Are you saying you have information that Gerry Adams was involved in a murder? perhaps you should take that to the cops. Dont want to get done for withholding information.0 -
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Iwasfrozen, timthumbni, thank you both for your efforts in the direction of ensuring yet another NI thread winds up in a flame war. Your use of emotive terms undoubtedly contributes to emotive rather than factual discussion. Keep it up and you'll win holidays.
moderately,
Scofflaw0 -
People always seem to forget that. Wolfe Tone was not an Ulsterman.Iwasfrozen wrote: »Wolftone was a Southerner. He was invited to Belfast by interested parties. The claim wasn't that the United Irishmen weren't Northern it was that Irish Republicanism was born in the North. Which it clearly wasn't.0 -
There isn’t any such evidence of course. But neither is there incontrovertible evidence (as would be established by a court of law) that there was collusion between the British and loyalists, or that they at times operated a shoot to kill policy or that they had a part in the Dublin / Monaghan bombings or many of the other allegations made against the British.Happyman42 wrote: »Other than somebody 'saying' he was in the IRA, where is the incontrovertible evidence in these books etc?
But regardless, I suspect you (and many others, including me) would maintain a high level of confidence, bordering on “almost certain” than some, or all of these allegations are true.
WE can only make an educated guess as to whether Adams was in the IRA or not (for those that really believe he wasn’t, a more pertinent question to ask would surely be “why not?”)
My guess is that he denies it, for the same reason that McGuinnness admits it. The whole Jean McConville business might be very troublesome if he were to admit being in the IRA at the time of her murder. Conversely McGuinness would have undermined the quest for truth by the bloody Sunday families if he went before Saville and denied being in the IRA.
But of course it doesn’t really matter one way or the other. Adams endorsed the IRA, which is as moral or not, depending on your view, as actually being involved with them.0 -
Painted Pony wrote: »There isn’t any such evidence of course. But neither is there incontrovertible evidence (as would be established by a court of law) that there was collusion between the British and loyalists, or that they at times operated a shoot to kill policy or that they had a part in the Dublin / Monaghan bombings or many of the other allegations made against the British.
But regardless, I suspect you (and many others, including me) would maintain a high level of confidence, bordering on “almost certain” than some, or all of these allegations are true.
WE can only make an educated guess as to whether Adams was in the IRA or not (for those that really believe he wasn’t, a more pertinent question to ask would surely be “why not?”)
My guess is that he denies it, for the same reason that McGuinnness admits it. The whole Jean McConville business might be very troublesome if he were to admit being in the IRA at the time of her murder. Conversely McGuinness would have undermined the quest for truth by the bloody Sunday families if he went before Saville and denied being in the IRA.
But of course it doesn’t really matter one way or the other. Adams endorsed the IRA, which is as moral or not, depending on your view, as actually being involved with them.
They deny because to admit it would open them up to a whole range of civil court cases0 -
Please don't misquote me. I wrote:Happyman42 wrote: »I wonder would we be allowed to say unproven stuff like that about other Dail deputies on these forums?
"They don't need evidence because they have no intention of arresting him. And yes as much as it is an insult to the many families who have relatives killed by that scum, Gerry will continue to walk free as the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
I called the IRA scum. Not Gerry. I don't know if he was involved in the IRA or not. No one does.
Nope. I have none. And if you would care to look over my post I never claimed to either.Crooked Jack wrote: »Are you saying you have information that Gerry Adams was involved in a murder? perhaps you should take that to the cops. Dont want to get done for withholding information.
We're talking about terrorists here. Cold hard calculated killers. Stop trying to appease the apologists and call them what they are.Iwasfrozen, timthumbni, thank you both for your efforts in the direction of ensuring yet another NI thread winds up in a flame war. Your use of emotive terms undoubtedly contributes to emotive rather than factual discussion. Keep it up and you'll win holidays.0 -
Hypothetically if anyone were to come out and say that they were members of an IRA or any of the other illegal organizations which endorsed the GFA they would be prosecuted and would serve two years in jail.They deny because to admit it would open them up to a whole range of civil court cases
Someone like McGuinness is open about his membership (to a point) because he did time in jail for it.0 -
ah yes people accept the "anecdotal" word of the likes of Brendan Hughes, Dolours Price and Sean O'Calllaghan as truth when it suits them and dismiss everything Adams says to the contrary because they want to believe he was in the IRA and are more and more irrated that they can't pin it on him. Incidently all three of these finger pointers have suffered with mental health issues over the course of a number of years in which they made the allegations.Plenty of anecdotal evidence, plenty of books and even ex-ira men confirming Adams membership of the IRA. Of course Adams should face trial over his alleged involvement in the order of execution of jean mcconville amoung others, but that will never happen because the powers that be won't destabilise the peace process. But if it makes you feel better we can carry on playing lets pretend
If Adams was arrested and put on trial for McConville it would be a farce because there would be a book of evidence that would be empty apart from the word of people who only pointed the finger on the condition they are dead before their testimony is released.
On another issue where there is evidence that is not anecdotal, as you are a member of the British armed forces would you also support the idea that every British soldier involved in the murder of innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday and the Ballymurphy massacre in the 1971 and 1972 be put on trial?0 -
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ah yes people accept the "anecdotal" word of the likes of Brendan Hughes, Dolours Price and Sean O'Calllaghan as truth when it suits them and dismiss everything Adams says to the contrary because they want to believe he was in the IRA and are more and more irrated that they can't pin it on him. Incidently all three of these finger pointers have suffered with mental health issues over the course of a number of years in which they made the allegations.
If Adams was arrested and put on trial for McConville it would be a farce because there would be a book of evidence that would be empty apart from the word of people who only pointed the finger on the condition they are dead before their testimony is released.
On another issue where there is evidence that is not anecdotal, as you are a member of the British armed forces would you also support the idea that every British soldier involved in the murder of innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday and the Ballymurphy massacre in the 1971 and 1972 be put on trial?
That goes both ways since if you want the soldiers allegedly involved in those incidents put on trail then you would also have to support the likes of Adams and mcgunniess put on trail. Moreover if support the gfa you would also have to suppport any soldier convicted of murder being realeased early under the terms of the Good Friday agreement. And yes I am a soldier and I don't believe I am above the law nor should anybody else be, wether they are serving soldiers or possible future Irish presidents0 -
That goes both ways since if you want the soldiers allegedly involved in those incidents put on trail then you would also have to support the likes of Adams and mcgunniess put on trail. Moreover if support the gfa you would also have to suppport any soldier convicted of murder being realeased early under the terms of the Good Friday agreement. And yes I am a soldier and I don't believe I am above the law nor should anybody else be, wether they are serving soldiers or possible future Irish presidents
The difference being that there is more than hearsay in the Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy cases.0 -
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Fine you twisted my words and saw meaning that wasn't there.Happyman42 wrote: »I didn't misquote you.0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »Fine you twisted my words and saw meaning that wasn't there.
No, I quoted your post, word for word.0 -
Happyman42 wrote: »The difference being that there is more than hearsay in the Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy cases.
And there's more then hear say where Gerry is concerned, but for whatever reason British intelligence chooses to keep It secret, for now. Moreover I guessing that regradless of alleged mental illness I'm sure that price and huges would have a better idea of who was a member of the pira on account of being members of the pira, although I love the way you try and right these primary sources as mentally ill0 -
'Keep it a secret'? except from you, you mean?And there's more then hear say where Gerry is concerned, but for whatever reason British intelligence chooses to keep It secret,
I didn't say they where mentally ill.Moreover I guessing that regradless of alleged mental illness I'm sure that price and huges would have a better idea of who was a member of the pira on account of being members of the pira, although I love the way you try and right these primary sources as mentally ill
And Hughes and Price's 'evidence' is hearsay, which is why it isn't actionable.0 -
You have to remember that Hughes and Price were fierce opponents of the peace process, the GFA and Sinn Fein or indeed any republicans joining the policing board. Many ex members of the IRA resent Sinn fein and indeed Adams for the direction they've taken the republican movement and Sinn Fein and the fact the IRA were talked into retirement and moved off the scene by Sinn Fein.And there's more then hear say where Gerry is concerned, but for whatever reason British intelligence chooses to keep It secret, for now. Moreover I guessing that regradless of alleged mental illness I'm sure that price and huges would have a better idea of who was a member of the pira on account of being members of the pira, although I love the way you try and right these primary sources as mentally ill
Some of these people wanted the IRA to continue the armed campaign until the British left. They never accepted the general concensus that there was a military stalemate. Some set up and joined the Real IRA and the 32CSM as a response to this. Some retired and became delusional with it all and thinking the Sinn Fein members were living on pensions off a bank a certain bank robbery and these people started in a cycle that everything is Sinn Feins fault. Anything that can hurt Sinn Fein and in particular Gerry Adams will be thrown at them and this also includes death threats in the last few years.
The will of the people and those with their heads screwed on was to establish the peace process and try to engineer a situation where the North could emerge from it's previous apartheid orange government and build a new society based on equality.
On the question of the thread for Adams' contribution alone to the peace process then he would be a fitting candidate for presidency of Ireland should it be the will of the people. He has had more impact in bringing lasting peace to Ireland than Collins, De Valera and Carson ever accomplished.0 -
You have to remember that Hughes and Price were fierce opponents of the peace process, the GFA and Sinn Fein or indeed any republicans joining the policing board. Many ex members of the IRA resent Sinn fein and indeed Adams for the direction they've taken the republican movement and Sinn Fein and the fact the IRA were talked into retirement and moved off the scene by Sinn Fein.
Some of these people wanted the IRA to continue the armed campaign until the British left. They never accepted the general concensus that there was a military stalemate. Some set up and joined the Real IRA and the 32CSM as a response to this. Some retired and became delusional with it all and thinking the Sinn Fein members were living on pensions off a bank a certain bank robbery and these people started in a cycle that everything is Sinn Feins fault. Anything that can hurt Sinn Fein and in particular Gerry Adams will be thrown at them and this also includes death threats in the last few years.
The will of the people and those with their heads screwed on was to establish the peace process and try to engineer a situation where the North could emerge from it's previous apartheid orange government and build a new society based on equality.
On the question of the thread for Adams' contribution alone to the peace process then he would be a fitting candidate for presidency of Ireland should it be the will of the people. He has had more impact in bringing lasting peace to Ireland than Collins, De Valera and Carson ever accomplished.
Front page of Sunday Independent Gerry Adams in big trouble not only over his failure to report child sex abuse but its causing big problems in SF
Is that not a bigger problem for wee Gerry at the minute0 -
And there's more then hear say where Gerry is concerned, but for whatever reason British intelligence chooses to keep It secret, for now. Moreover I guessing that regradless of alleged mental illness I'm sure that price and huges would have a better idea of who was a member of the pira on account of being members of the pira, although I love the way you try and right these primary sources as mentally ill
Both these people also said, for example, that Jean McConville was a tout who was previously warned about passing information onto the Brits and it was only when she persisted that she was shot. I take it you accept that as well.0 -
The Sunday Independent and all of O'Reillys papers says it all for sensationalising things that are aimed at republicans.Front page of Sunday Independent Gerry Adams in big trouble not only over his failure to report child sex abuse but its causing big problems in SF
Is that not a bigger problem for wee Gerry at the minute
Listen it's not upto me to question Adams' alleged wrong doings here, child abuse and any crime of a sexual nature is wrong and there's no question about that, it seems to be one of the most heinous and traumatic crimes.
In Ireland we've seen over the last decade or two historical child abuse cases brought to the fore. I myself have seen a family that I know well suffer internal abuse and how a girl now an adult pointing the finger at an aged uncle for abuse suffered twenty years previous can bring about many internal conflicts. I do agree with Adams on the point he made when he said it's upto the adult concerned and not him about whether to go to the relevent authories.
You need to look at the facts of every case and there seems to be many different timelines presented reported about who know what when and and where. Adams won't face charges over this just because he's a political figure, you argue that the girls mother also witheld information from authorities.0 -
HRH_The_Queen wrote: »Apologies if this is being discussed elsewhere, but despite his recent "clarifications", I can't help but see the recent Gerry Adams statement as a significant change in position for Sinn Fein. Is this just about votes, or is he positioning himself for a run at the Presidency ?
My own position is that I would regard him as a very good candidate. What do you think ?
Statement :
Ireland and Britain — Towards a new relationship
By Gerry Adams
THE VISIT of the Queen of England has been the subject of considerable political and media focus. However, the occasion of this visit merits a much fuller discussion about how Ireland and Britain, in the wake of the recent seismic political changes, can build a better, more beneficial relationship for the peoples of both our islands.
The clichés that this first ever visit to the state by a serving British monarch somehow indicates that Irish people “have matured” or “finally grown up” are deeply patronising and insulting. I have nothing against the Queen of England being the Queen of England. That is a matter for the people of England. But it is not the way I want Irish society to be organised.
I am a republican. I believe that the people are sovereign and not subjects. I am against monarchies.
I am also Irish. And while I am conscious of the sense of affinity which unionists have with the English monarch, I am offended at having to live in a partitioned Ireland with the Queen of England ruling over a part of us.
I believe the visit of the English queen is troubling for many Irish citizens, particularly victims of British rule and those with legacy issues in this state and in the North. I am for a new relationship between the people of the island of Ireland and between the people of Ireland and Britain based on equality and mutual respect.
I hope this visit will hasten that day but much will depend on what the British monarch says. As an Irish citizen who was detained without charge or trial a number of times on a British prison ship, in a prison camp and an H-Block, as well as a more conventional prison, at ‘Her Majesty’s Pleasure’ – I hope so.
So too will many of the families of victims in the conflict, including victims of British terrorism and collusion. This includes families of those killed in the Dublin Monaghan bombs whose anniversary takes place on the first day of the visit. British interference in Irish affairs has come at a huge cost to the Irish people. It has been marked by invasion, occupation, subjugation, famine and cycles of Irish resistance and British repression.
The impact of this, including partition and its consequences, are still being felt to this day. Irish republicans too have caused much hurt to people in Britain. I regret this.
The full normalisation of relationships between Ireland and Britain is important. This will require the ending of partition and the emergence of a New Ireland.
The Peace Process, which Sinn Féin has contributed significantly to, has transformed the political landscape in Ireland and resulted in a peaceful political dispensation based on an historic accord between Irish nationalism and unionism. The Good Friday Agreement is the foundation upon which new relationships between unionists and nationalists and between Ireland and Britain can be forged. It has fundamentally altered the political landscape, levelled the political playing field, removing the despicable Government of Ireland Act and opening up a peaceful, democratic route to a united Ireland.
And because nationalists and unionists are governing the north decisions affecting the lives of people there are being increasingly made in Ireland and not in Britain. Republicans want to continue and to accelerate this process.
The united Ireland that republicans seek to build encompasses all the people of this island, including unionists. It will be a pluralist, egalitarian society in which citizens rights are protected and in which everyone will be treated equally. Sinn Féin wants a New Republic. That of course is a matter for the people of this island to decide.
But no matter how we shape our society, the new Ireland must embrace our islands diversity in its fullest sense. This includes English and Scottish influences, the sense of Britishness felt by many unionists, as well as indigenous and traditional Irish culture and the cultures of people who have come to Ireland in recent times.
Ireland and England are not strangers to each other. We should build on what we have in common while at the same time respecting each other’s sovereignty and independence.
I want to see a real and meaningfully new and better relationship between the peoples of Ireland and Britain — one built on equality and mutual respect. Republicans have been to the forefront in working to bring this about and we will continue to do so.
The visit by the Queen of England provides a unique opportunity for the British establishment to make it clear that this is its intention also. If this is the case it will be a matter of considerable pleasure, not just for her majesty but for the rest of us as well.
BREAKING NEWS
Gerry Adams did not run for President of Ireland in 2011 for SF
Martin McGuiness did run for SF instead
Martin McGuiness was not successful in his bid for President if Ireland
End of thread0 -
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The Sunday Independent and all of O'Reillys papers says it all for sensationalising things that are aimed at republicans.
Listen it's not upto me to question Adams' alleged wrong doings here, child abuse and any crime of a sexual nature is wrong and there's no question about that, it seems to be one of the most heinous and traumatic crimes.
In Ireland we've seen over the last decade or two historical child abuse cases brought to the fore. I myself have seen a family that I know well suffer internal abuse and how a girl now an adult pointing the finger at an aged uncle for abuse suffered twenty years previous can bring about many internal conflicts. I do agree with Adams on the point he made when he said it's upto the adult concerned and not him about whether to go to the relevent authories.
You need to look at the facts of every case and there seems to be many different timelines presented reported about who know what when and and where. Adams won't face charges over this just because he's a political figure, you argue that the girls mother also witheld information from authorities.
He knew thus his brother was a child abuser and yet he said nothing when he worked with other children!!
That is unforgivable
Anyway what do you expect from SF/IRA scum sure wasn't he and his thugs involved in murdering innocent men women and children sure why would he care about his niece being abused scumbag that's what they are
So it's ok for you and others to questions others wrong doing but not SF why
Imagine if other groups or organisations said that to SF when SF were making polictical capital out of other scandals
I seriously doubt it would wash with SF
Sure why not? He's a public figure getting piaded taxpayers money
So therefore he is accountable to full public scurinty0
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