Votes for Irish Citizens Abroad

FTA69 · 13-09-2013 1:38pm #1

I recently attended a debate in the London Irish Centre hosted by the Labour Party Irish Society which centred around the issue of whether or not Irish citizens abroad should have some sort of vote in Irish elections. Recently there has been a large input into the Constitutional Convention concerning this issue; primarily around the notion of allowing votes for the Presidential elections.

While a vote for the President would be a welcome symbolic acknowledgement of the contribution of the Irish abroad, I personally feel it should go further with either citizens being allowed to vote in their own constituencies or at the very least a separate seat in the Dáil being created for the diaspora. The vast majority of countries around the world, and nearly every country in Europe, currently allows their citizens to exercise their franchise so it isn't a massive shift in politics by any means, rather an alignment into the current electoral norms across the continent. It is also the case that most Irish emigrants hope to return at some stage and as such they fundamentally have a stake in the type of country that Ireland is or hopes to become. Lastly, it is also the natural extension of the current government platitudes about "engaging the diaspora" (or our money) in shaping the future of Ireland.

Any thoughts on this issue?

Here is the website for the group currently campaigning and making submissions to the Constitutional Convention:

http://www.vica.ie/index.php/aboutus

hfallada · 13-09-2013 2:39pm

Why should people be allowed to vote on issues what will have little or no impact on them? If you live outside Ireland, you probably will make your decision on what the media and family/friends will tell you. Which will probably impact your decision in a bad way.

Ireland is unique in a sense that so many irish citizens live abroad. There is probably a million Irish citizens live abroad. If you were born in Sligo and emigrated as a child 80 years ago. I dont believe you should be allowed to vote.

FTA69 · 13-09-2013 2:46pm

Why should people be allowed to vote on issues what will have little or no impact on them?

Because the vast majority of them want to return to Ireland at some stage. The notion that emigrants have no stake in the future of the country of their origin (and most likely future residence) is flawed, secondly a key element of being a citizen of a particular country is the right to exercise your vote, a situation which is the norm across the rest of the world.

If you live outside Ireland, you probably will make your decision on what the media and family/friends will tell you.

As opposed to voters in Ireland is it? Many Irish people follow events in Ireland very closely and are often as tuned in as anyone within the country itself.

If you were born in Sligo and emigrated as a child 80 years ago.

Most of that older generation contributed vast sums in remittances that kept the country afloat, the 50s generation and those after are as entitled to a say as anyone else.

Godge · 13-09-2013 5:29pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Because the vast majority of them want to return to Ireland at some stage. The notion that emigrants have no stake in the future of the country of their origin (and most likely future residence) is flawed, secondly a key element of being a citizen of a particular country is the right to exercise your vote, a situation which is the norm across the rest of the world.

As opposed to voters in Ireland is it? Many Irish people follow events in Ireland very closely and are often as tuned in as anyone within the country itself.

Most of that older generation contributed vast sums in remittances that kept the country afloat, the 50s generation and those after are as entitled to a say as anyone else.

My views on this are quite simple. If you don't pay your income tax here, you shouldn't have a vote in saying what the level of income tax should be.

They can have a vote in local, European or Presidential elections but not in Dail elections or referenda.

FTA69 · 13-09-2013 5:35pm

Godge wrote: »

My views on this are quite simple. If you don't pay your income tax here, you shouldn't have a vote in saying what the level of income tax should be.

So we should disenfranchise the unemployed and carers then? Should we give the vote to all the Eastern Europeans in Ireland? After all they're paying income tax?

Cody Pomeray · 13-09-2013 5:58pm

Godge wrote: »

My views on this are quite simple. If you don't pay your income tax here, you shouldn't have a vote in saying what the level of income tax should be.

Why has income tax been singled out for special mention?

If you don't pay the second home tax (NPPR), does that mean you get no say in what the NPPR should be? Shouldn't large property portfolio owners be able to determine their own liability for tax?

Manach · 13-09-2013 6:18pm

There will be cost associated with handling these votes. Should this be met by the voters themselves (given the current confiscatory levels of income tax it is impossible to identify which account money goes into), then I'd have no objection as if the state is paying court to the overseas Irish in terms of the Gathering or Investment, they should have a voice in certain elections like the presidental.

View · 13-09-2013 9:15pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Should we give the vote to all the Eastern Europeans in Ireland? After all they're paying income tax?

We should approach other EU states and propose a reciprocal deal where we give their citizens the vote here if they give Irish citizens living there the vote.

In fact, the referenda that extended the vote to UK citizens allows the Minister here to do just that so it wouldn't require a big change.

clairefontaine · 14-09-2013 7:47pm

Godge wrote: »

My views on this are quite simple. If you don't pay your income tax here, you shouldn't have a vote in saying what the level of income tax should be.

They can have a vote in local, European or Presidential elections but not in Dail elections or referenda.

This is the same reason women, blacks and non property owners were forbidden to vote.

VinLieger · 14-09-2013 8:08pm

clairefontaine wrote: »

This is the same reason women, blacks and non property owners were forbidden to vote.

There is no comparison between those cases and citizens living abroad, stop trying to shame people into having a different opinion

Days 298 · 14-09-2013 8:19pm

I wouldn't mind Irish Citizens people abroad voting here only if they had lived in the 26 counties for more than 5/10 years at some stage in their lives.We are different to other countries due to the fact of the whole Northern Ireland situation, a lot citizens that have never lived in the 26 counties ever. People in Northern Ireland would have too much say in a country thats policies would have little effect on them if every passport holder could automatically vote. So expats yes, N.I no.

Just my opinion.

pablomakaveli · 14-09-2013 8:25pm

I no longer live in Ireland and i happily accept the fact i don't have a vote anymore. I wouldn't feel right voting in elections when the outcome would not affect me.

I don't contribute tax to Ireland and it would also seem unfair to have the same vote as someone who does and is resident.

Grudaire · 15-09-2013 1:17am

Too many contentious issues for this issue to be dealt with properly tbh.

Personally it is my opinion that emigrants should not have the vote - or at least not indefinitely like VICA want. After several years people lose any practical link with Ireland. The practical issues with absentee voting is another issue to be addressed.

Indeed I would go as far as to say that people in the North have far more of a link to Ireland and Irish politics will affect them far more. (eg decisions on the boarder) Indeed it is not inconceivable that Ireland is united in our lifetimes.

Black Swan · 15-09-2013 3:53am

FTA69 wrote: »

I recently attended a debate in the London Irish Centre hosted by the Labour Party Irish Society which centred around the issue of whether or not Irish citizens abroad should have some sort of vote in Irish elections. Recently there has been a large input into the Constitutional Convention concerning this issue; primarily around the notion of allowing votes for the Presidential elections.

While a vote for the President would be a welcome symbolic acknowledgement of the contribution of the Irish abroad...

Our President has very little power in government, but can make a valuable contribution representing the interests of Ireland about the world. In like manner the many Irish citizens working and schooling abroad can also represent those interests, each contributing in their own small way to Ireland's interests. Extending the vote for President to our citizens overseas, along with the obligation attached to that vote to do something, no matter how small, to promote those Irish interests, may help us beyond what the President (or other officials concerned with international relations, commerce, etc.) can do.

There are approximately 3 million Irish citizen passport holders living abroad. Even if a small percentage of them were linked, encouraged, and coordinated to represent our interests, they may make a difference.

Given the Presidential vote, I can envision a future voluntary organisation, with a web site that links and draws our Irish citizens about-the-world together (e.g., division of boards.ie?). Perhaps DeV can establish contacts with staffers in the President's office to identify Irish interest initiatives that need work beyond our borders, while at the same time discovering ways to reach and organise those many Irish citizens overseas?

I would be in favour of giving the vote for President to our citizens overseas, provided that we remind them that with this vote comes obligations. I would not be in favour of extending their vote for other offices, or matters that pertain to national, county, or financial issues.

worded · 15-09-2013 3:57am

Well irish people outside the country can hardly vote in a worse guberment than the present population has done time after time

Grudaire · 15-09-2013 10:41am

worded wrote: »

Well irish people outside the country can hardly vote in a worse guberment than the present population has done time after time

Jaysus I'd choose our incompetent idiots over America's capitalistic and malicious governments Tbf

murphaph · 15-09-2013 11:27am

As an expat (and one who pays income tax still in Ireland, but that's not relevant to my point really) I feel expats should retain the vote for Dail elections for at least a certain number of years, perhaps 20. if your average expat hasn't returned by then, he probably won't. I feel this is only fair to folks who have lost their jobs due to economic mismanagement by their own government and where those folks have done the country an economic favour and have gone abroad to work, rather than sign on in Ireland and become a drain on the exchequer,

I agree that given there are apparently 3 million Irish citizens living abroad that a blanket vote for all would be unfair as many never had any practical or day to day connection to the country.

FTA69 · 16-09-2013 12:49pm

Cliste wrote: »

Too many contentious issues for this issue to be dealt with properly tbh.

Personally it is my opinion that emigrants should not have the vote - or at least not indefinitely like VICA want. After several years people lose any practical link with Ireland. The practical issues with absentee voting is another issue to be addressed.

Indeed I would go as far as to say that people in the North have far more of a link to Ireland and Irish politics will affect them far more. (eg decisions on the boarder) Indeed it is not inconceivable that Ireland is united in our lifetimes.

I agree with you in the sense that Irish citizens in the north should have some sort of input into the electoral process and the state in general; the presidential elections would be a good start for this. I can't agree with your assertion that after "several" years emigrants lose a practical link however. We saw a large influx of returned emigrants during the boom years and many of them had been away for a lot longer than several years.

djpbarry · 16-09-2013 1:55pm

FTA69 wrote: »

I agree with you in the sense that Irish citizens in the north should have some sort of input into the electoral process and the state in general...

But "non-Irish" should not?

Grudaire · 16-09-2013 2:08pm

When people become entitled to voting rights elsewhere I see absolutely no reason for them to retain voting rights here.

When people do come back they are back in the voting process, this idea that somehow they deserve to keep voting rights because they may move back several years in the future is nice but raises the question of why we don't allow anyone immegrating to Ireland a voting right for a few years before they move.

When I say 'practical link' I mean actual physical link. I don't mean emotional, and I don't mean listening to your cousin on the phone. I don't even mean being subjected to cheesy Fáilte Ireland ads.
I mean how can decisions the government in Ireland take that affects your day-to-day life. You don't pay taxes here, your bins aren't collected here, we're not waging war on your country, the Gardaí don't keep you safe and the HSE doesn't save your life.

What scares me is that giving votes to all citizens would leave the system wide open for absolute abuse. Bad enough the handful who drive around to vote twice, imagine the number of postal votes an enthusiastic politician could engineer.

FTA69 · 16-09-2013 4:12pm

djpbarry wrote: »

But "non-Irish" should not?

What do you mean?

Cliste,

When people become entitled to voting rights elsewhere I see absolutely no reason for them to retain voting rights here.

They don't though for the most part. I can vote in elections in the UK but only because of a special scenario that was devised for Irish and British citizens. Irish emigrants elsewhere have no franchise in their home country or abroad. The vast majority of the world's emigrants would exercise their franchise in their own country if they choose to do so. Ireland is one of the very few places that they can't.

why we don't allow anyone immegrating to Ireland a voting right for a few years before they move.

Because they aren't Irish citizens?

I mean how can decisions the government in Ireland take that affects your day-to-day life. You don't pay taxes here, your bins aren't collected here, we're not waging war on your country, the Gardaí don't keep you safe and the HSE doesn't save your life.

The taxation is a red-herring as has already been explained. The franchise is related to citizenship of the state, not the taxes you may or may not pay toward it. There are plenty of people in Ireland who pay no income tax but yet are perfectly entitled to vote and there are also immigrants (who vote in their own countries) who do pay tax to the Irish exchequer who have no vote.

As for having no link with Ireland, I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that you lose all practical link with the country the minute you're out the door. Many if not most emigrants retain a variety of links (family, economic, cultural etc) with Ireland and also make a massive contribution in all of the above spheres. Secondly they often have as much of a stake in Ireland's future or the type of place it will become as anyone else.

What scares me is that giving votes to all citizens would leave the system wide open for absolute abuse.

But yet it's common practice in nearly every other country in the world.

Brussels Sprout · 16-09-2013 4:24pm

I'd be in favour of giving Irish passport holders living abroad the right to vote in Irish elections with 2 conditions

1) They have to have been a resident in Ireland in the past 10 years
2) They have to go to the nearest Irish embassy or consulate to cast their vote

The first condition would be to exclude people who are too detached from the country or who possibly may never even have lived in Ireland (e.g. children of emigrants). The second condition would impose an inconvenience on voters and would therefore weed out people who may otherwise vote "just because they can" rather then because they are interested.

Grudaire · 16-09-2013 4:35pm

It is disingenuous to claim that people do not gain the ability to become naturalised in other countries. For example in the UK: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/naturalisation/standardrequirements/

No special arrangements necessary. The fact that many people are either too lazy or do not feel they want to become naturalised abroad is not an automatic reason that they should retain voting rights here.

You will notice that I mentioned taxation in a larger paragraph. I specifically made sure not to use it as an argument alone as you are correct that paying tax or owning land alone is not reason to vote.
You will notice however that everything you have listed are things that are not really government decisions. The government runs the country, it is not the soul of the country. It decides what Dole to pay etc. It does not control your relationship with your family or Irish culture. You'd have more of an impact on that by joining your local GAA club abroad!

Indeed I think that it would be downright ridiculous if people who had left the country held a balance of power in all matters political in Ireland. If there are over 1m people able and willing to vote abroad then we would effectively bowing to the will of people who have left the country.

Don't exaggerate, it's done in many other countries, but 'nearly all' is an embellishment. Besides, just because they do it doesn't meant we should do it

FTA69 · 16-09-2013 6:03pm

Cliste wrote: »

It is disingenuous to claim that people do not gain the ability to become naturalised in other countries. For example in the UK: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/naturalisation/standardrequirements/

I never said that it isn't possible to get naturalised, rather that most emigrants are facilitated to exercise their franchise in their country of origin as a matter of right and in general can't automatically vote in their host country's elections without having to become citizens of that country. And after all that is the thrust of my argument; that franchise is connected to citizenship alone and as an Irish citizen I should be able to exercise franchise in my own country.

All you are proving by citing the link above is that British citizens can vote in British elections.

No special arrangements necessary. The fact that many people are either too lazy or do not feel they want to become naturalised abroad is not an automatic reason that they should retain voting rights here.

It is a special arrangement between Ireland and the UK in the sense no other nationality can vote in general elections here without being a British citizen. Also not becoming a citizen of the country you're in isn't a matter of laziness. I (and I'd imagine most other Irish people here) are content to remain Irish citizens as that expresses our national identity. The whole "bugger off and become American/Canadian/Australian citizens and vote there" argument is a bit churlish to say the least, and is typical of the attitude traditionally displayed toward emigrants in Ireland.

Indeed I think that it would be downright ridiculous if people who had left the country held a balance of power in all matters political in Ireland. If there are over 1m people able and willing to vote abroad then we would effectively bowing to the will of people who have left the country.

Personally I feel that a useful compromise would be the creation of seats specifically for the Irish diaspora in parliament similar to what they do in the French National Assembly. Also the notion of the Irish electoral system being swamped by voters abroad is another fallacy. Voter turnout is in effect very low when citizens abroad are allowed to vote. Talk of the place being held hostage to foreign votes is simply scare-mongering.

Don't exaggerate, it's done in many other countries, but 'nearly all' is an embellishment. Besides, just because they do it doesn't meant we should do it :

It's done in 115 odd other countries, nearly every other democracy; and it's also done by all but 4 countries in Europe. The reason the campaign brings this up is because voting from abroad is a normal procedure and not this mad outlandish notion that some people try and make it out to be.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 16-09-2013 6:05pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I'd be in favour of giving Irish passport holders living abroad the right to vote in Irish elections with 2 conditions

1) They have to have been a resident in Ireland in the past 10 years
2) They have to go to the nearest Irish embassy or consulate to cast their vote

The first condition would be to exclude people who are too detached from the country or who possibly may never even have lived in Ireland (e.g. children of emigrants). The second condition would impose an inconvenience on voters and would therefore weed out people who may otherwise vote "just because they can" rather then because they are interested.

That could be hundreds if not thousands of miles from where they live.

FTA69 · 16-09-2013 6:13pm

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

That could be hundreds if not thousands of miles from where they live.

I agree. Either a citizen abroad has the vote or they don't. There's no need to place restrictive conditions on it. Dutch citizens can vote over the internet.

View · 16-09-2013 6:13pm

FTA69 wrote: »

They don't though for the most part. I can vote in elections in the UK but only because of a special scenario that was devised for Irish and British citizens. .

No such "special arrangement" was ever devised in the UK. Irish citizens retained the vote as they qualified - until "recent" decades - as British citizens in many cases. Since then you have the whole reality that dis-enfranchising Irish citizens means lots of people in NI would lose their vote. Should NI ever leave the UK, expect the historical oddity of Irish citizens having the vote in the UK to end "shortly" thereafter.

Grudaire · 16-09-2013 6:55pm

You're ignoring the key aspect of my argument - namely that governments are an administrative feature of countries rather than a means of being connected to the country. Why would people who are not directly affected by a governments decisions hhave a say in that Government?

(And note I am not against voting rights for several years after a citizen leaves, but indefinitely is clearly unnecessary)

FTA69 wrote: »

All you are proving by citing the link above is that British citizens can vote in British elections.

No, I'm saying that people are afforded the oppertunity to engage with the demographic process in their country of residence. They get a say in who collects the bins where they put their rubbish, what taxes they have to pay, what laws they have to obide by.

FTA69 wrote: »

The whole "bugger off and become American/Canadian/Australian citizens and vote there" argument is a bit churlish to say the least, and is typical of the attitude traditionally displayed toward emigrants in Ireland.

I didn't say that :rolleyes:

Indeed Ireland affords the opportunity to hold dual-citizenships. This allows people who leave to become naturalised abroad, and retain their link to Ireland. But it would afford voting rights in two countries. Hardly necessary?

FTA69 wrote: »

...
Talk of the place being held hostage to foreign votes is simply scare-mongering.

Sensible suggestion regarding a limited number of seats being made available, one which I would agree to. Some suggestions seem to be to retain voting rights in your home constituency.
Currently however there is a requirement for a broadly similar level of representation for every person. This would necessitate a change to the constitution to ensure this.

I'm not scare-mongering, I'm merely pointing out flaws in these broad brushed suggestions.

Painted Pony · 16-09-2013 7:28pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Because they aren't Irish citizens?

But what is significant about citizenship?

Surely the logical approach in any grouping, from a humble residents association up, is that you afford an input to those who have a current involvement, as opposed to an interest, in whatever concerns the grouping addresses?

For example, given the nature of modern employment dynamics, many of us will find work in a constituency other our home one. We may retain an interest in it and may hope to someday return to live in it, but in the meantime our past, and possible future involvement in our home constituency, should not lead us to expect to be permitted to vote in say local, or even national elections.

So why take a different tack in relation to the nation and its citizens?

djpbarry · 18-09-2013 10:09am

FTA69 wrote: »

What do you mean?

My point has just been addressed quite nicely above by Painted Pony.

You're placing a ridiculous emphasis on citizenship. For example, you state that Irish citizens in NI (I presume that means Irish passport holders?) should have some input into the Irish electoral process. But why just the Irish passport holders? Surely non-Irish passport holders in NI are every bit as affected by what happens in The Dáil as Irish passports holders in NI?

murphaph · 18-09-2013 12:14pm

View wrote: »

No such "special arrangement" was ever devised in the UK. Irish citizens retained the vote as they qualified - until "recent" decades - as British citizens in many cases. Since then you have the whole reality that dis-enfranchising Irish citizens means lots of people in NI would lose their vote. Should NI ever leave the UK, expect the historical oddity of Irish citizens having the vote in the UK to end "shortly" thereafter.

There most certainly are special agreements between the UK & Ireland wrt. voting rights for each others citizens in the other country. It has nothing to do with grandfather rights etc.

Irish citizens are expressly permitted to vote in all UK elections once they have established residency in the UK (I think at the latest 5 years after settling there, but can be sooner). Similar applies in reverse but excludes right to vote in presidential elections.

Votes for Irish Citizens Abroad

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