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Junction design the Dutch pedestrian and cycle friendly way

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    #2
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    or get rid of the signs and stuff altogether

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L39gNtsaZfI


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    #3
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    The first one is great but I really hate the second one. Its one of those terrible examples of a 'shared space'... noone knows what anyone else is doing and it becomes a total nightmare for traffic. Everyone believes they have right of way and it just ended up unsafe.


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    #4
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    gctest50 wrote: »
    or get rid of the signs and stuff altogether

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L39gNtsaZfI

    Looks ok on quiet residential type streets but increase the amount of traffic X10 and see how the pedestrians and cyclists fare!


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    #5
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,782 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I may regret saying this later, but I kinda like the design in IWHs first post: it is certainly safer than what the beloved National Cycling Manual suggests (that cyclists should be allowed to basically undertake at junctions), and provided that the junction ensures that motorised traffic also can get across at a reasonable rate (e.g. by not using zebra crossing or their cycling equivalent if ped/cylist traffic is very high).

    It would be a good idea wherever there's enough room at existing junctions.


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    #6
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    SeanW wrote: »
    I may regret saying this later, but I kinda like the design in IWHs first post: it is certainly safer than what the beloved National Cycling Manual suggests (that cyclists should be allowed to basically undertake at junctions), and provided that the junction ensures that motorised traffic also can get across at a reasonable rate (e.g. by not using zebra crossing or their cycling equivalent if ped/cylist traffic is very high).

    It would be a good idea wherever there's enough room at existing junctions.
    The major issue in Ireland for the Dutch model is that they give cyclists priority while in Ireland even if the laws were there to give cyclists and pedestrians priority drivers will not and the current situation will continue.

    It would take several decades of intensive education and training to change driver attitudes towards other road users in Ireland


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    #7
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,114 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The major issue in Ireland for the Dutch model is that they give cyclists priority while in Ireland even if the laws were there to give cyclists and pedestrians priority drivers will not and the current situation will continue.

    It would take several decades of intensive education and training to change driver attitudes towards other road users in Ireland

    In all aspects of life, including the use and appreciation of all types of transport, education is key. That's where Ireland falls short. It's well educated in many respects, but woefully uneducated in many more important areas of life itself.


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    #8
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    I think the main point regarding cycling in the Netherlands is that they fully segregate cyclists from both pedestrians and motorists. This is quite different to here where road designers frequently shoehorn cyclists into whichever category is least disruptive. This leaves cyclists with sub-par infrastructure (would a motorist or a pedestrian accept anything sub-par? No, and rightfully so!) causing them to find other ways of achieving safety or speed. When cyclists are provided with good, *comprehensive* infrastructure (i.e. a decent lane/track for 500m doesn't count if there is nothing on either end) everybody benefits - even motorists and pedestrians - because everybody knows where they stand. If there is any lesson Ireland can learn it is this one - that unless cyclists are treated as a category unto themselves, every other mode will suffer to some extent. Good cycle design is not about punishing motorists, but about accommodating every *person* as effectively as possible irrelevant of mode.


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    #9
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,480 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    It would take several decades of intensive education and training to change driver attitudes towards other road users in Ireland

    I have to agree with this. The junction in the OP looks nice but would be insanely dangerous in Ireland where there is little concept or awareness of left turning traffic to look on it's inside.
    As a cyclist I'd be using the main traffic lane at a junction like that for safety reasons


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    #10
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    This is a follow up video to the "little understood" one the OP posted:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HDN9fUlqU8


    Some key bits from the video's transcript:
    • "This junction design explained in another video, was discussed a lot but little understood."
    • "The advanced position of the cyclists, makes that they are gone before the car can make the turn. Even if they have green at the same time."
    • "Which mostly is not the case. Especially at larger junctions, where turning cars have a different green phase from the cyclists."
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    I have to agree with this. The junction in the OP looks nice but would be insanely dangerous in Ireland where there is little concept or awareness of left turning traffic to look on it's inside.
    As a cyclist I'd be using the main traffic lane at a junction like that for safety reasons

    See above.


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    #11
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,938 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The major issue in Ireland for the Dutch model is that they give cyclists priority while in Ireland even if the laws were there to give cyclists and pedestrians priority drivers will not and the current situation will continue.

    It would take several decades of intensive education and training to change driver attitudes towards other road users in Ireland
    Grandeeod wrote: »
    In all aspects of life, including the use and appreciation of all types of transport, education is key. That's where Ireland falls short. It's well educated in many respects, but woefully uneducated in many more important areas of life itself.

    I disagree. If the Gardaí actively enforced it then it wouldn't take too long for motorists to learn, the problem we have is lack of enforcement not lack of laws. We've done it with other problems like smoking in buildings and plastic bags.


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    #12
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Wow, I mean really, wow, this type of junction looks amazing and would go a very long way to making cycling much safer * if implemented here in Ireland.

    * What with left turning at junctions being the primary cause of cycling accidents and fatalities.


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    #13
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Del2005 wrote: »
    I disagree. If the Gardaí actively enforced it then it wouldn't take too long for motorists to learn, the problem we have is lack of enforcement not lack of laws. We've done it with other problems like smoking in buildings and plastic bags.

    The problem with enforcement is not a lack of enforcement but a lack of Gardai to enforce the laws! just look at the many new penalty points offences lately and the pitiful number of people fined for things like using a mobile while driving or stopping in a junction on a yellow marked area, there are no Gardai to enforce traffic rules or laws, there are not even enough to investigate other crimes such as murders and drugs/gang crimes. There is no money for extra Gardai so this situation won't change in the foreseeable future.


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    #14
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The problem with enforcement is not a lack of enforcement but a lack of Gardai to enforce the laws! just look at the many new penalty points offences lately and the pitiful number of people fined for things like using a mobile while driving or stopping in a junction on a yellow marked area, there are no Gardai to enforce traffic rules or laws, there are not even enough to investigate other crimes such as murders and drugs/gang crimes. There is no money for extra Gardai so this situation won't change in the foreseeable future.

    Then the obvious solution is make traffic law enforcement a local authority function rather solely a police function. The fines from speed cameras, traffic light cameras etc should also become a direct income stream for the local authorities.

    At the moment local authorities are being asked to be a lead agency in transport policies that require a police function that they don't have and, as you point out yourself, is not available elsewhere.


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    #15
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    bk wrote: »
    Wow, I mean really, wow, this type of junction looks amazing and would go a very long way to making cycling much safer * if implemented here in Ireland.

    * What with left turning at junctions being the primary cause of cycling accidents and fatalities.


    I am not a cyclist,but I interact closely (often TOO closely) with hundreds of them each working day,and I would be a huge advocate of the House of Orange invading and oppressing us rebel Irish,even if only to force this kind of stuff down our throats !

    However,in the real world,we really DO need to know what exactly our generations of (now retired) Town and City Planners were doing on their many "Fact Finding Visits" to other EUropean Countries and further afield.

    Like much else in our current deadbeat situation,the answers often tend to be horrifically Simple,both in theory and execution...something which our 30+ years of European Union Membership has taught us to be suspicious of.

    Instead,we continue right to the present day,to design and fabricate highly dangerous Traffic Situations whose only positives are the use of far more Stainless Steel Poles than are desirable or reasonable.

    We don't appear to have that highly desirable level of Comprehension when it comes to this type of Human Organization stuff....why not ?...I have NO idea...800 years of Imperial Rule or something like that ?

    PS;..I just LOVE the lack of Cycle Helmets,Hi-Vizzes or other bright n shiny cycling paraphernalia,which the likes of "our" RSA deem far more important than the REAL Inherently Safe stuff graphically portrayed in that Video !!!


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #16
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Then the obvious solution is make traffic law enforcement a local authority function rather solely a police function. The fines from speed cameras, traffic light cameras etc should also become a direct income stream for the local authorities.

    At the moment local authorities are being asked to be a lead agency in transport policies that require a police function that they don't have and, as you point out yourself, is not available elsewhere.
    The local authorities are just not trusted enough to allow them this important role. THere is too much corruption and cronyism and parish pump politics.


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    #17
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Del2005 wrote: »
    I disagree. If the Gardaí actively enforced it then it wouldn't take too long for motorists to learn, the problem we have is lack of enforcement not lack of laws. We've done it with other problems like smoking in buildings and plastic bags.

    Given that the junction is directionaly controlled for pedestrians,cyclists and motorists, then yeah as long as Garda enforced ALL the directions involved, so that cyclists stayed on the green where drivers and pedestrians are expecting them.....oh wait, we got rid of that requirement last October

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86246406&postcount=31
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057026161


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    #18
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    oh wait, we got rid of that requirement last October

    The law is the same in the Netherlands, it is perfectly legal to cycle on the road even if a cycle path is available. However when high quality cycle infrastructure is available, people choose to use it.

    Which just goes to so how bad cycle infrastructure is in Ireland given that people choose not to use it and that we need to focus on vastly improving the infrastructure.


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    #19
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    bk wrote: »
    The law is the same in the Netherlands, it is perfectly legal to cycle on the road even if a cycle path is available. However when high quality cycle infrastructure is available, people choose to use it.

    Which just goes to so how bad cycle infrastructure is in Ireland given that people choose not to use it and that we need to focus on vastly improving the infrastructure.
    Exactly and the Irish way of doing such a junction will see the cycle lanes not wide enough for cycling on and the intersections with the roadway forcing cyclists to dismount to cross the roadway. Welcome to Ireland the land of saints and Gobshltes


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    #20
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    bk wrote: »
    The law is the same in the Netherlands, it is perfectly legal to cycle on the road even if a cycle path is available. However when high quality cycle infrastructure is available, people choose to use it.

    Which just goes to so how bad cycle infrastructure is in Ireland given that people choose not to use it and that we need to focus on vastly improving the infrastructure.

    Errrr No

    It's not the same in the Netherlands! Article 5 of Section 2.1 dealing with road positioning from
    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CE8QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.government.nl%2Ffiles%2Fdocuments-and-publications%2Fleaflets%2F2013%2F01%2F16%2Froad-traffic-signs-and-regulations-in-the-netherlands%2Froad-traffic-signs-and-regulations-jan-2013-uk.pdf&ei=VjMeUrPeAtDW7Qa01oFY&usg=AFQjCNHJxDKg9F-k6YQIbPgBJAH37FX52A&sig2=-GYtmo8uiwX1iHnuLzLFDQ&bvm=bv.51156542,d.ZGU&cad=rja
    Article 5
    1 Cyclists are required to use the mandatory cycle
    track or the cycle/motor cycle track


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    #21
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    The problem with enforcement is not a lack of enforcement but a lack of Gardai to enforce the laws!

    This left turning issue would seem to be ripe for control by camera.

    Sadly, the many cyclists who don't stop at the light at all will never be identified, which is why some identification is needed.


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    #22
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Errrr No

    It's not the same in the Netherlands! Article 5 of Section 2.1 dealing with road positioning from
    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CE8QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.government.nl%2Ffiles%2Fdocuments-and-publications%2Fleaflets%2F2013%2F01%2F16%2Froad-traffic-signs-and-regulations-in-the-netherlands%2Froad-traffic-signs-and-regulations-jan-2013-uk.pdf&ei=VjMeUrPeAtDW7Qa01oFY&usg=AFQjCNHJxDKg9F-k6YQIbPgBJAH37FX52A&sig2=-GYtmo8uiwX1iHnuLzLFDQ&bvm=bv.51156542,d.ZGU&cad=rja



    There are mandatory cyclepaths in the Netherlands. It's not the whole story, however.

    Bikes wider than 75cm can use the roadway. That encompasses a whole range of popular cargobikes, as well as this kind of oddity: http://www.velomobiel.nl/wet/

    Mopeds also use the verplichte fietspaden, an arrangement I have found to be very annoying and occasionally dangerous.


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    #23
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    There are mandatory cyclepaths in the Netherlands. It's not the whole story, however.

    Bikes wider than 75cm can use the roadway. That encompasses a whole range of popular cargobikes, as well as this kind of oddity: http://www.velomobiel.nl/wet/

    Mopeds also use the verplichte fietspaden, an arrangement I have found to be very annoying and occasionally dangerous.


    From the same link as I previously supplied
    3 They may use the non-mandatory cycle track.
    Riders of motor-assisted bicycles equipped with
    combustion engines may use the non-mandatory
    cycle track only if the engine is switched off.

    4 Riders of bicycles having more than two wheels
    with a total width, including the load, in excess of
    0.75 metres and of bicycles pulling trailers with a
    total width , including the load, in excess of 0.75
    metres, may use the public carriageway.


    And the point being what? that the Netherlands have laws that aren't the same as Ireland that is something I would not dispute
    bk wrote: »
    The law is the same in the Netherlands, it is perfectly legal to cycle on the road even if a cycle path is available. However when high quality cycle infrastructure is available, people choose to use it.

    Which just goes to so how bad cycle infrastructure is in Ireland given that people choose not to use it and that we need to focus on vastly improving the infrastructure.

    The bolded statement I would and am disputing


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    #24
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    From memory, and I don't have time to look it up, what the Dutch call a non-mandatory cycle track is something similar to what we would call a hard-shoulder. These would not have cycle symbols but there would be an expectation that motorists would ordinarily stay out of them.

    As far as I know - in the Netherlands once a structure is marked for use by cyclists its mandatory.

    But there is no comparison between their standards of construction, design and maintenance and ours.


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    #25
    TheBandicoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭TheBandicoot


    I don't cycle at all(much too out of shape for that) but I am all for designs like this as a pedestrian and bus user- I don't want cyclists to risk hitting me on the footpath(my brother lost a tooth this way) and I don't want them causing delays to buses by minutes at a time in bus lanes. Everyone should have a well segregated lane exclusive to themselves so everyone knows where they stand.


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    #26
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    The bolded statement I would and am disputing



    In the present context, Dutch and Irish laws are not the same, so yes, in the case of G11-signed cyclepaths in the Netherlands cyclists are required to use them.

    Bikes (and loads on bikes) wider than 0.75 metres are exempted, and given (a) the popularity of cargobikes and (b) the huge number of cyclists in the Netherlands, this means that there is a very large cohort of cyclists who legally may use either the cyclepaths or the road. The reality is that, ttbomk, the overwhelming majority of cyclists use the cyclepaths, whether mandatory or not, and why wouldn't they?

    This is in stark contrast to Ireland, where until recently the law required cyclists to use certain cyclepaths even when it was perfectly obvious to any rational person that doing so was less safe and convenient than using the road.


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    #27
    Redskinsdog
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭Redskinsdog


    Nice


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    #28
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    In the present context, Dutch and Irish laws are not the same, so yes, in the case of G11-signed cyclepaths in the Netherlands cyclists are required to use them.

    Bikes (and loads on bikes) wider than 0.75 metres are exempted, and given (a) the popularity of cargobikes and (b) the huge number of cyclists in the Netherlands, this means that there is a very large cohort of cyclists who legally may use either the cyclepaths or the road. The reality is that, ttbomk, the overwhelming majority of cyclists use the cyclepaths, whether mandatory or not, and why wouldn't they?

    This is in stark contrast to Ireland, where until recently the law required cyclists to use certain cyclepaths even when it was perfectly obvious to any rational person that doing so was less safe and convenient than using the road.

    And for that design of road junction to work safely would IMO require the correct classes of road users to be in their correct places, something that cyclists groups successfully campaigned to change


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    #29
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    And for that design of road junction to work safely would IMO require the correct classes of road users to be in their correct places, something that cyclists groups successfully campaigned to change

    Uh no. For this design to work safely it requires the users to work off the traffic signals for the lane that they are in. The type of user is irrelevant.

    The need for separate traffic signals is where this type of design breaks down when transposed to the Irish context.

    For this design to be acceptable to Irish cyclists, then the extent of the green time for their lanes would have to match the green time for the car lanes.

    Taking the Irish engineering practice of giving pedestrians 6 seconds in the signal cycle and applying this to cyclists would mean that junction capacity - expressed in time - was being removed from cyclists.

    In that case a proportion of cyclists would ignore the paths and the lights and stay in the traffic lanes. People are cycling to get from A to B in a reasonable time not to justify the projects of traffic engineers.

    Edit: A proportion would also use the cycle paths but would be incentivised to ignore the traffic signals.


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    #30
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    bk wrote: »
    Which just goes to so how bad cycle infrastructure is in Ireland given that people choose not to use it and that we need to focus on vastly improving the infrastructure.

    So true. Cycle lanes in Ireland are often very dangerous, with slippy manhole covers, potholes, drain covers and lines of cars any of which may fling a door open and break your fingers and hurl you out into traffic.

    Not to mention the fact that the cyclists using them are in close, unrestricted conjunction with drivers, many of whom simply don't see cyclists and seem locked in some sad bubble of thought.


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    #31
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Uh no. For this design to work safely it requires the users to work off the traffic signals for the lane that they are in. The type of user is irrelevant.

    The need for separate traffic signals is where this type of design breaks down when transposed to the Irish context.

    For this design to be acceptable to Irish cyclists, then the extent of the green time for their lanes would have to match the green time for the car lanes.

    Taking the Irish engineering practice of giving pedestrians 6 seconds in the signal cycle and applying this to cyclists would mean that junction capacity - expressed in time - was being removed from cyclists.

    In that case a proportion of cyclists would ignore the paths and the lights and stay in the traffic lanes. People are cycling to get from A to B in a reasonable time not to justify the projects of traffic engineers.

    Edit: A proportion would also use the cycle paths but would be incentivised to ignore the traffic signals.
    Uh no. For this design to work safely it requires the users to work off the traffic signals for the lane that they are in. The type of user is irrelevant.
    Sorry totaly disagree with your statement, for your statement to be true would mean you are willing to allow pedestrians to cross with the different phases of the lights "as long as they are in the lane"
    For this design to be acceptable to Irish cyclists, then the extent of the green time for their lanes would have to match the green time for the car lanes.
    You seriously think that cyclists,cars and pedestrians having equal times is the most efficent usage of a junction, really hope you aren't involved in traffic management in any professional capacity, you see what I read between your lines isn't road sharing but for cyclists to disregard whatever phase of the lights is current, i.e if it's green for cars I'll use the carriageway, even if I hold up buses etc., if it green for cyclists I'll use the cycle lane and if it's green for pedestrians, well I'll just cycle slowly or become a pedestran :)
    People are cycling to get from A to B in a reasonable time not to justify the projects of traffic engineers.
    As are most people, but it does seem to me from various threads involving the cycling fraternity that they all cry for road sharing but seem very blasé when it comes to their side of it


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