Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

N6 - Galway outer bypass: Is it needed?

Options
1…1314161819

Comments

  • Options
    #452
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    what_traffic wrote: »
    So will it be An Bord Plenala that decide's this "IROPI" once the County/City Council submit the new plans?

    From previous judgements it appears that if IROPI is argued, then the commission must approve the compensatory measures proposed to offset the loss of habitat.

    This guidance document from the Marine Management Organisation in the UK has a flowchart of the steps required, as well as sample forms for the submission to the Commission supporting the request.

    This part of the discussion (the process) probably belongs back in infra as it has nothing to do with commuting. Will I start a thread on it, as it affects more than just GCOB?


  • Options
    #453
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    This is the commuting AND transport forum.

    The IROPI process seems intertwined with the discussion on this thread.


  • Options
    #454
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    monument wrote: »
    This is the commuting AND transport forum.

    The IROPI process seems intertwined with the discussion on this thread.

    The process has much wider implications than just transport, e.g. the building of interperative centres in places like the burren (remember that?), fisheries works on the Corrib, the use of Galway bay (the powerboat races last year), the potential flooding of 500 acres of bog in Laois/Offaly to create a another artificial lake to support Dublin.

    So yeah, I'm thinking that this forum is a bit restrictive.


  • Options
    #455
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    You're not fooling anyone except yourself.



    That's glib and self-serving, coming as it does from someone who earlier dismissed the 2007 Galway Strategic Bus Study as "vaporware".

    It's also an attempt at dodging real debate. Other posters in this thread and elsewhere have tried the same approach: attacking a fabricated or distorted version of someone's position in order to claim some sort of hollow victory in specious arguments. There's a name for that kind of thing.


  • Options
    #456
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    what_traffic wrote: »
    So will it be An Bord Plenala that decide's this "IROPI" once the County/City Council submit the new plans?



    My understanding is that, in the context of Priority sites, the Local Authority and An Bord Pleanala would be regarded as the "competent authorities" in determining IROPI only in the area of human health and safety.

    The EU Commission ultimately determines IROPI in relation to all other aspects, or so I believe.

    Key components of IROPI are compensatory measures and the consideration of alternatives. I'm not sure where the former stands after the ECJ and Supreme Court decisions, but I suspect the latter will be a very interesting exercise. The relevant government minister deals with compensatory measures, subject to final EU approval one supposes.
    The assessment of alternative solutions is a process by which an examination is made of alternative ways of achieving the objectives of the plan/project, which would avoid or reduce any adverse effects on the integrity of the Natura 2000 network of sites. The assessment of alternative solutions is required when the Competent Authority, at the Appropriate Assessment stage, has concluded that an adverse effect is likely, or cannot be ruled out. Alternative solutions could incorporate alternative locations, different scales or designs for the development, or the provision of alternative production processes. The ‘zero-option’ or ‘do-nothing’ scenario must also be considered as part of the exercise and it is also necessary to consider the relative impacts of the other alternative solutions upon the Natura 2000 network. Source: http://www.marinemanagement.org.uk/licensing/public_register/cases/documents/sacd/annexe.pdf

    My understanding is also that the public interest can only be overriding if it is long-term. Public interests that are short-term economic benefits, for example, or other aspects which would bring only short-term benefits for society are probably not regarded as being sufficient.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #457
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    That's glib and self-serving, coming as it does from someone who earlier dismissed the 2007 Galway Strategic Bus Study as "vaporware".

    Something that promises big but fails to deliver (or be delivered) is classic vaporware, not clib but concise.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    It's also an attempt at dodging real debate. Other posters in this thread and elsewhere have tried the same approach: attacking a fabricated or distorted version of someone's position in order to claim some sort of hollow victory in specious arguments. There's a name for that kind of thing.

    I might take you seriously if you didn't shout stawman every time you see an argument you do not like, or if you acknowledge that the posiiton set forth in your posts is at odds with what your stated position. This is not doging debate, this is putting forward an inconvenient truth.


    If you would like to see dodging debate, this thread is a clear example of discussion of items that have aboslutely nothing to do with the potential provison of an outer bypass of galway, but we're stuck trying to get out of the mud becuase the debate can't be moved on to the real issues because certain parties do not want it to get there becuase their position would become immediately & clearly untenible.


  • Options
    #458
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    This is not doging debate, this is putting forward an inconvenient truth.



    Nice one. The Bellman meets Al Gore.


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Something that promises big but fails to deliver (or be delivered) is classic vaporware, not clib but concise.



    Hmmm, promises big but fails to deliver. Like the Waterford Bypass perhaps?
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    This will have to be the first bypass where they drop the toll. I reckon it is only taking 4000 cars a day off the Rice Bridge in Waterford ( around 10% of traffic pre bypass) and that 37,000 cars are still taking the Rice Bridge daily.

    Anybody reckon the bypass is taking 14000 cars a day , not out of Waterford itself it ain't??

    And if any green gobsh1te wants to try tolling the Galway Bypass I will strangle him !


  • Options
    #459
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,785 ✭✭✭SeanW


    And that (assuming its true) has nothing to do with the fact that the Waterford "Bypass" is tolled? I've seen the M4 toll literally cause a tailback all the way from Enfield to Kilcock the entire length of the old road - I assume a similar dynamic transpires in other places with tolled bypasses e.g. Waterford.

    They aren't planning to toll the GCOB I hope?


  • Options
    #460
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    SeanW wrote: »
    The roads forming the current N6 may not be so densely urban, but it has still become what the American advocacy groups calls a "Stroad" that is, a hybrid combination of a "Street" and a "Road." that provides poor value for money and fails abjectly at both roles. I'll let Strong Towns explain what a Stroad is far better than I could.

    N6 does not really fit into the meaning of a Stroad. The west side of the Headford Road section is the only bit that even comes close and not very close at that.

    antoobrien wrote: »
    http://www.cso.ie/en/census/census2011reports/census2011populationclassifiedbyareaformerlyvolumeone/ - table CD118.

    For those of you too lazy to click on the link the actual number of permanent residents west of the city boundary is 39,238,

    Grand, I stand corrected -- 39k spread over ~1,600km².

    A central problem is most don't go near the city on a daily bases. For example, the only 3,663 commute into the city for work (2011 Cencus Powscar data) and you'd image some of those would be working on the west side of the city -- and Barna alone accounts for nearly 25% of the 3,663.

    Away from the city, smallpercentages of people [work in the city] ...

    264494.JPG

    antoobrien wrote: »
    Lets not forget the industry west of the corrib, which can not develop because goods can't get out

    Delay or slower travel does not equal "can't get out"!

    In any case, the delay in most cases of goods following the N6 route would equal so little of the overall journey that its hardly relevant.

    antoobrien wrote: »
    meaning that connemara residents have to look to the city for work - further increasing strain on the city infrastructure

    The map above shows that small percentages of Connemara work in the city -- under 10% in most areas and in areas above 10% the actual numbers are only between 7-12 people working in Galway City!

    antoobrien wrote: »
    Nah the parking and other such trivia is much more relevant because of

    Parking is trivia?

    antoobrien wrote: »
    the ridiculous notion that a minor change is all that's needed, rather than actually looking at what's affecting the system.

    Who exactly said a minor change is all that is needed? Can you quote them?


  • Options
    #461
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Cut the personlisations out!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #462
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,785 ✭✭✭SeanW


    monument wrote: »
    N6 does not really fit into the meaning of a Stroad. The west side of the Headford Road section is the only bit that even comes close and not very close at that.
    I disagree, the existing route East-West - and remember that the N6 only forms part of it - is trying very much to fulfil both the roles of a road and city street. On the N6 the Headford Road is very much a Stroad, last time I was there trying to leave Salthill it was a traffic hellhole, and this is some years back. It fails miserably as a road but you couldn't very well call it a street either. Lets not forget that Iwannahurl complains bitterly about the current N6 being used as a Road (again see the definition, large volumes of high speed long distance traffic) by complaining about people driving 80-100kph on a section of it that has a single housing estate access, plus all the moaning about roundabouts) so it's very difficult to see how the current N6 (even the old dual carriageway section that has had roundabouts removed because they're too motorist "centric") can be called a "Road"

    But of course the East-West route also includes large portions of the R338 after the N6 finishes plus the N59 for traffic heading North West. Not so familiar with the latter but again - if you go by the Strong Towns definitions (which I do) none of these can be called "Roads."

    So in as much as they try to accommodate long distance traffic on city streets, they can only be called Stroads, and that's not good.


  • Options
    #463
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,785 ✭✭✭SeanW


    monument wrote: »
    Delay or slower travel does not equal "can't get out"!
    Businesses need to get their goods out quickly and in a predictable timeframe for cost, fleet management reasons etc. A place that has actual roads for high speed long distance motor traffic will be more competitive than a place where the business depends on low speed, unreliable, traffic congested urban streets. We should also be doing what we can IMO to make railfreight etc more competitive but that's another story.


  • Options
    #464
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    SeanW wrote: »
    I disagree, the existing route East-West - and remember that the N6 only forms part of it - is trying very much to fulfil both the roles of a road and city street. On the N6 the Headford Road is very much a Stroad, last time I was there trying to leave Salthill it was a traffic hellhole, and this is some years back. It fails miserably as a road but you couldn't very well call it a street either. Lets not forget that Iwannahurl complains bitterly about the current N6 being used as a Road (again see the definition, large volumes of high speed long distance traffic) by complaining about people driving 80-100kph on a section of it that has a single housing estate access, plus all the moaning about roundabouts) so it's very difficult to see how the current N6 (even the old dual carriageway section that has had roundabouts removed because they're too motorist "centric") can be called a "Road"

    But of course the East-West route also includes large portions of the R338 after the N6 finishes plus the N59 for traffic heading North West. Not so familiar with the latter but again - if you go by the Strong Towns definitions (which I do) none of these can be called "Roads."

    So in as much as they try to accommodate long distance traffic on city streets, they can only be called Stroads, and that's not good.

    Look, it's nothing like the US examples where frontage of business is directly onto the road, where there is on-street parking and way more access points than most of the N6.

    There's 30km/h limits on motorway slips -- does that make them Strodes? No, it does not and you'll find roads are not just for cars!

    SeanW wrote: »
    Businesses need to get their goods out quickly and in a predictable timeframe for cost, fleet management reasons etc. A place that has actual roads for high speed long distance motor traffic will be more competitive than a place where the business depends on low speed, unreliable, traffic congested urban streets. We should also be doing what we can IMO to make railfreight etc more competitive but that's another story.

    My main point was that it is hyperbole to say goods can't be got out currently.

    My second point was that the delay with the current trips likely will not be that notable given the overall journey time.

    Nothing you have said really deals with those points -- furthermore, many businesses do not their goods out as quick -- many are not as time dependent. But working in a business that got something from Galway overnight the other day after ordering it the evening before and one that brings goods into Galway often, I think talking up congestion's affect on goods is a none-runner and as usually you can help goods move faster by dealing with unnecessary car trips. The rush hour for cross-country cargo is in any case after the commuting rush hour, but if you want to help the small amout of more time dependent trips you cut unnecessary car trips.


  • Options
    #465
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,785 ✭✭✭SeanW


    monument wrote: »
    Look, it's nothing like the US examples where frontage of business is directly onto the road, where there is on-street parking and way more access points than most of the N6.
    You're right: in Galway it's far worse, along the N6 and R338, there are shopping centres and supermarkets that are far in from the stroads with vast car parks. From my memories of the current East-West route, it makes the Stroad in that video look pleasent by comparison. I just don't think the current East-West route is appropriate either for through traffic or local travel. And its the mix of the two that makes it so.
    There's 30km/h limits on motorway slips
    Which I think are bat**** crazy, in some cases.
    -- does that make them Strodes?
    No, because they are grade separated and designed primarily for cars. That makes them roads.
    No, it does not and you'll find roads are not just for cars!
    True, but roads are primarily designed for motor traffic. Streets are primarily designed to capture value in a limited space, so transport wise the are designed primarily for everything other than motor traffic (with the possible exception of buses).

    This is why I am a big time supporter of bypass construction (combined with severe planning laws against building houses, shops etc onto roads) they allow for clear demarcation between streets (designed to capture local value) and roads (desinged to facilitate large scale motor traffic).


  • Options
    #466
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,785 ✭✭✭SeanW


    monument wrote: »
    Nothing you have said really deals with those points -- furthermore, many businesses do not their goods out as quick -- many are not as time dependent. But working in a business that got something from Galway overnight the other day after ordering it the evening before and one that brings goods into Galway often, I think talking up congestion's affect on goods is a none-runner and as usually you can help goods move faster by dealing with unnecessary car trips. The rush hour for cross-country cargo is in any case after the commuting rush hour, but if you want to help the small amout of more time dependent trips you cut unnecessary car trips.
    Granted I have limited knowledge here but I remember a television debate about a proposal for a dual carriageway from the N11/N25 junction to Rosslare Europort (this is some years back) and the debate was on between:
    1. A community of NIMBYs saying it wasn't needed.
    2. The Irish Exporters Association saying "we need speed and reliability in our freight movements, and this will help"
    To do that you need roads, as defined by Strong Towns, clearly and unapolagetically catering to the needs of motor traffic, i.e. freight lorries. Otherwise you risk creating too much variance in freight transit times.


  • Options
    #467
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    SeanW wrote: »
    Which I think are bat**** crazy, in some cases. Of course, no matter how insanse a 30kph limit on a motorway slip road or overpass, some people would rather choke *** cough cough, Iwannahurl *** than admit that they might be too low or admit that a motorist exceeding them may have a reason other than recklessness to do so.

    There was just a warning about personlisations a few posts above -- cut it out!

    - Mod

    SeanW wrote: »
    You're right: in Galway it's far worse, along the N6 and R338, there are shopping centres and supermarkets that are far in from the stroads with vast car parks. From my memories of the current East-West route, it makes the Stroad in that video look pleasent by comparison. I just don't think the current East-West route is appropriate either for through traffic or local travel. And its the mix of the two that makes it so.

    I've just re-read Strong Towns stuff on Stroads -- the N6 overall just noes not fit into their meaning of what is a Stroad. If you want to continue to claim otherwise, that's fine.

    In any case, I've already said access should and can be limited more along the route -- that would be a key part of upgrading the route to be more aimed at longer-distance traffic.


    SeanW wrote: »
    True, but roads are primarily designed for motor traffic. Streets are primarily designed to capture value in a limited space, so transport wise the are designed primarily for everything other than motor traffic (with the possible exception of buses).

    Not really. Both are defined by function and not what mode of transport uses them.

    A road is supposed to be designed for as a thoroughfare -- for travel along it regardless of mode of transport.

    A street is supposed to be the destination with less priority on movement. Regardless of personal views of what should get priority, streets can be primarily designed for motor traffic -- ie mostly taken up by parking, traffic lanes etc.

    Both roads and streets pre-date motor traffic.


  • Options
    #468
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,785 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I've just re-read Strong Towns stuff on Stroads -- the N6 overall just noes not fit into their meaning of what is a Stroad. If you want to continue to claim otherwise, that's fine.
    Again; the current N6 is only a part of the current East-West route, that includes the R338 and N59. But I see many similarities on the Headford Road part of the N6. Plus some of the complaints from certain quarters about the rest of the N6 re: roundabouts, housing estate accesses etc.
    In any case, I've already said access should and can be limited more along the route -- that would be a key part of upgrading the route to be more aimed at longer-distance traffic.
    And to be fair you have given some good examples as to how you would do this, but I contend that these would only ever work for part of the route, i.e. up as far as the Headford Road. Beyond that I don't there should be any attempt to upgrade the thoroughfare beacuse they are city streets and should be treated as such. Again, this includes the Headford Road, R338 and N59.

    That's where a bypass comes in.
    Not really. Both are defined by function and not what mode of transport uses them.

    A road is supposed to be designed for as a thoroughfare -- for travel along it regardless of mode of transport.
    Fair enough, but I am sure you will agree that regarding medium-long distance travel, motors are going to be a very large part of that, if not the majority.
    A street is supposed to be the destination with less priority on movement.
    Again, true. Fair cop. But I tend to agree with ST that a street will not function as expected if there is too heavy an emphasis on motorised traffic. Sometimes its unavoidable: you will need lots of parking on a street if its a destination that people drive to, there will also be cases where people use a street as a main trunk route within a local area, such Dorset Street in Dublin being the main route from the City Centre to Drumcondra and points North (and I once lived in Dublin and sometimes used it as a both a street and a road).

    And in the case of Dorset Street or the Dublin "Circular" roads, a "Stroad-ish" profile of usage is sort of unavoidable. But with Galway, with the R338, Headford Road, N59 and the like it's absolutely 100% avoidable because there is a viable bypass proposal to eliminate a lot of that. That is why I disagree with bypass skepticism and disagree very strongly with the outright anti-bypass opposition that has been observed from certain quarters.


  • Options
    #469
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Would a tunnel underneath some of the narrower, non grade-separable stretches of the N6/R338 be feasible? Might it work out cheaper than the land acquisition and overall construction of the proposed bypass in the open countryside?

    I would contend that having the new motorway interchanges as close as possible to the city would discourage sprawl (i.e. what got us into this mess in the first place), as well as keeping the city centre alive by not facilitating the growth of retail parks outsides the city.

    Keeping the motorway inside the existing urban fabric also avoids the nasty problem of SAC/SPA/NHA interference. It would also be far better at facilitating cross-city traffic, something which I don't think the proposed design does a good job of.

    Even if it cost the same, it might work out better in a cost-benefit analysis.


  • Options
    #470
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,327 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    the tricky part about tunnel cost benefit is that they can be pricey to maintain over the longer run - look how much work has been done on Jack Lynch tunnel since opening.


  • Options
    #471
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Short sections of cut and cover I'd imagine is cheaper to maintain than tunnels.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #472
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    monument wrote: »
    Delay or slower travel does not equal "can't get out"!




    This notion of thousands of people being somehow trapped in Connemara due to the lack of a bypass is an example of the hyperbole associated with the proposal. The various threads on the GCOB are peppered with such rhetorical flourishes.

    ?Cee?view wrote: »
    ...cut off from the rest of the country due to traffic gridlock


    The GCOB seems to mean different things to different people, at least rhetorically.

    For example, we're led to believe that the bypass is needed as a bypass to get traffic out of the city that shouldn't be there, yet it also seems to be regarded as necessary for getting shoppers into the city so that they don't speed off to more distant and, but of course, car-friendly places:
    "Business and retail outlets in the city are increasingly fearful that Galway’s headline position in the national traffic jam league will prompt customers to choose other locations for their main shopping expeditions.

    This week, one city councillor, Nuala Nolan, said that she had been contacted by a number of shoppers from the county area who told her that they would be making Athlone their main shopping destination, after being caught up in last week’s city gridlock."

    http://www.galwaynews.ie/21329-emergency-meeting-tackle-city-traffic-chaos

    antoobrien wrote: »
    all we have heard to this point is opposition to the plans, mostly from people outside of Galway (almost totally invalid, they don't have to sit in traffic to get the shopping)


    The GCOB is apparently promising a lot to a lot of people. More on that anon.


  • Options
    #473
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,785 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Yes, it is clearly the view taken locally that the current N6/R338 etc are congested with through traffic mixed with people going to those places as a destination.

    With the bypass in place taking medium and long haul through traffic will be gone, and there will be road/street space for shoppers coming in from outside the city who must use their cars. You could argue that this is not the most efficient use of freed-up road space and I'm certain that you would prefer more bus lanes, cycle lanes, traffic lights, lower speed limts and all the rest, but the reasoning from the commercial sector seems clear.

    I should have thought that this was self evident and that you would clearly be able to deduce this from your own links and quotations.


  • Options
    #474
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    SeanW wrote: »
    Yes, it is clearly the view taken locally that the current N6/R338 etc are congested with through traffic mixed with people going to those places as a destination.

    With the bypass in place taking medium and long haul through traffic will be gone, and there will be road/street space for shoppers coming in from outside the city who must use their cars. You could argue that this is not the most efficient use of freed-up road space and I'm certain that you would prefer more bus lanes, cycle lanes, traffic lights, lower speed limts and all the rest, but the reasoning from the commercial sector seems clear.

    I should have thought that this was self evident and that you would clearly be able to deduce this from your own links and quotations.

    Basically the space will be filled up by other motor traffic -- maybe not straight away but quickly enough. Likely extra local traffic as much as extra Co Galway and beyond traffic.

    Then we'll back to wanting more roads build or maybe we can then add more lanes to the outer bypass and the N6.


  • Options
    #475
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Aard wrote: »
    Would a tunnel underneath some of the narrower, non grade-separable stretches of the N6/R338 be feasible?

    No, it was ruled out in the ABP inspectors report as being a) considerably more expensive and b) more damaging to the limestone slab than any of the proposed bridge options (7 in total).


  • Options
    #476
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    SeanW wrote: »
    With the bypass in place taking medium and long haul through traffic will be gone, and there will be road/street space for shoppers coming in from outside the city who must use their cars. You could argue that this is not the most efficient use of freed-up road space and I'm certain that you would prefer more bus lanes, cycle lanes, traffic lights, lower speed limts and all the rest, but the reasoning from the commercial sector seems clear.

    This is indeed one of the central problems with an element of the pro-bypass arguments. The apparent intent is not to rid the city of unnecessary motor traffic but to change the types of trip that predominate within the mix of motor vehicles. The intent it seems is not to manage car use but to further facilitate greater use of cars around and within the city. The idea that shoppers from outside the city must use their cars is spurious and unsupportable. They may need cars to reach the city outskirts but the idea that they should then be facilitated to drive cars back and forth inside the city centre is ridiculous.

    Providing for this would be an outright perversion of the bypass concept as it would be understood elsewhere on the northern European mainland. Of itself this vision of a bypass as a "traffic facilitation" measure provides direct grounds for opposing the bypass. This is something that the bypass lobby don't seem to get - that it is their own arguments for the bypass that are generating opposition to the bypass. If the bypass lobby wish to understand what is causing some of the opposition then they need only look in the mirror.


  • Options
    #477
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Providing for this would be an outright perversion of the bypass concept as it would be understood elsewhere on the northern European mainland.

    Define irony:

    The justification of obstructing of a piece of infrastructure by arguing for the use of polices to provide an alternative when those policies require said piece of infrastructure present in order to enable the aforementioned policies.


  • Options
    #478
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Define irony:

    The justification of obstructing of a piece of infrastructure by arguing for the use of polices to provide an alternative when those policies require said piece of infrastructure present in order to enable the aforementioned policies.

    Define disingenuousness:

    The issue is that the policies are needed regardless of whether a particular piece of infrastructure is also needed. The policies are needed independently of whether or not a piece of infrastructure is provided.

    Saying that one absolutely requires the other is, in my view, dishonest. Trying to make one the price of the other appears to confirm the weakness of some pro-bypass arguments and again invites the conclusion that other agendas are at work.

    If the bypass argument stands on its own two legs then why not let it stand on them?

    Afraid of something?


  • Options
    #479
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Define disingenuousness:

    Okay, here you go:
    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Saying that one absolutely requires the other is, in my view, dishonest.

    So stating that a house absolutely requires a foundation would be dishonest? :confused:

    My opinion is based on an examination & analysis of the issues raised. There is a significant common thread in all the towns/cities raised that are considered to be acceptable alternatives to Galway: they all have bypasses.

    So not only is the finding neither dishonest nor disingenuous, but it is a quite logical finding that a bypass must be a fundamental piece of infrastructure in facilitating those other initiatives.
    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Trying to make one the price of the other appears to confirm the weakness of some pro-bypass arguments and again invites the conclusion that other agendas are at work.

    The surest sign that the "reasoned objectors" are running out of ideas is when they start claiming "that other agendas are at work", the ultimate strawman argument. I'm not going to let another such argument drag us away from the core of the problem: the fact that cross-town traffic is being funnelled into the main commercial area when it is not the intended destination of said traffic*.
    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    If the bypass argument stands on its own two legs then why not let it stand on them?

    Oh but it does, that's the sad thing about the "reasoning" against the bypass. Every example of "alternatives" raised fall down on simple analysis, such as actually trying to quantify the supposed benefits of their provision.

    The reasoning for the bypass is quite clear and I'll repeat it again: cross-town traffic is being funnelled into the main commercial area when it is not the intended destination of said traffic*.
    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Afraid of something?

    Et tu Brute?

    You & other posters have been repeatedly been asked for an example of a city that does what it is you ask without providing a bypass and you (collectively) have failed/refused to do so, claiming that it's irrelevant.

    If you want to be taken seriously by town engineers anywhere, you'd better start producing case studies that can be assessed. The fact that you (collectively) have thus far failed/refused to do so is the real disingenuous trait being displayed in this "debate".

    I'll give an example of an urban area that has grown up on two sides of a river (just like Galway), that has an unbalanced population development, but does provide alternatives that keeps traffic out of city center areas and provides plenty of PT: Liverpool/Birkenhead (strictly speaking two separate municipal areas, but then that was the case Galway & the Claddagh in the dim and distant past).

    * traffic is an inclusive term indicating all users of a road system and should not be equated solely with private motorists.


  • Options
    #480
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    monument wrote: »
    N6 does not really fit into the meaning of a Stroad. The west side of the Headford Road section is the only bit that even comes close and not very close at that.

    As a frequent cyclist and pedestrian on various sections of that road I will just laugh at that totally ridiculous statement. Facilities could be better but they by no means exclude cyclists and pedestrians.
    monument wrote: »
    Grand, I stand corrected -- 39k spread over ~1,600km².

    Oh don't worry I'll get you to a realistic view of Galway's problems. The problem isn't the fact that the population is vastly higher than you had previously stated, or even that it's spread out over a large area. No the problem is what has happened over the past 50 or so years to make Connemara just like the rest of Co Galway - almost totally dependent on the city. But I've explained that a few times, so I'm not going over it again.
    monument wrote: »
    A central problem is most don't go near the city on a daily bases. For example, the only 3,663 commute into the city for work (2011 Cencus Powscar data) and you'd image some of those would be working on the west side of the city -- and Barna alone accounts for nearly 25% of the 3,663.

    Why am I correcting you again, the commute from bearna (village) is 455 - less than half your percentage again.

    monument wrote: »
    Away from the city, smallpercentages of people [work in the city] ...

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/5842/264494.JPG

    Oh look, you've found out that Galway is largely rural (just like Mayo). Have you found out yet that it always has been, is slowly turning more urban (mostly in the past 30 years) and that the reason that people are travelling to Galway is that employment has more or less collapsed in the County?


    monument wrote: »
    Delay or slower travel does not equal "can't get out"!

    Yes it does, if it's taking several times loner
    monument wrote: »
    In any case, the delay in most cases of goods following the N6 route would equal so little of the overall journey that its hardly relevant.

    Talk about a logic fail. A friend of mine told me that it took a visitor 1 hour to get through town last week to visit her in Satlhill. That trip should take about 20 minutes (based on actual distance) so we're adding 40 minutes to a 2.5 hour trip from Galway to Dublin. That is a very significant delay to hauliers for whom time spent in traffic and waiting at ports is wasted money.


    monument wrote: »
    The map above shows that small percentages of Connemara work in the city -- under 10% in most areas and in areas above 10% the actual numbers are only between 7-12 people working in Galway City!


    monument wrote: »
    Parking is trivia?

    The idea that the provision of parking in the city is the core of the problem is ludicrous and trivialising the issue. Also the idea that removing parking from the center will promote using buses is laughable, it will encourage them going elsewhere - as Dublin city centre found out when they bus gate was introduced.
    monument wrote: »
    Who exactly said a minor change is all that is needed? Can you quote them?

    Everybody stating that TDM, buslanes or cycle lanes is all that's needed (that includes you I believe) are claiming that minor tinkering is needed.

    Here's two quotes that I find particularly risible:
    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Of course in some cases we are not even talking about tens of millions. We are talking about;
    • spending a couple of thousand (at most) to knock a wall here and there

    This (and the rest of the post, omitted for space) is a classic example of minor tinkering that will not help the target audience of cross town traffic.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #481
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Okay, here you go:


    So stating that a house absolutely requires a foundation would be dishonest? :confused:

    My opinion is based on an examination & analysis of the issues raised. There is a significant common thread in all the towns/cities raised that are considered to be acceptable alternatives to Galway: they all have bypasses.

    Yes, in my view, quite dishonest. The significant common thread of cities that manage their infrastructure sustainably is a decision to manage their infrastructure sustainably. Bypasses may be a component of policies to manage city infrastructure sustainably but they are not a "foundation". The "foundation" is the starting premise that private car use must be restricted in favour of the common good. In order for the Galway bypass to be supportable it must rest on such a foundation.

    Otherwise, as we have just seen argued here, bypasses are also a component of unsustainable policies such as by using the extra road space created to hold even more private cars or to increase traffic speeds and flow.


Advertisement