"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

AlekSmart · 17-02-2013 10:15pm

Esoteric_ wrote: »

Not particularly happy using a Leap Card, less than a week after getting it. However, it's more of a rant against the drivers, not the Leap Card itself. Three times I've been over-charged, after clearly stating the fare I needed to pay to the driver. :mad: At least when I'm paying cash, they don't make mistakes (except that 90% of them don't give change receipts :pac: ).

OK Esoteric,but before getting to excised at individual drivers,could you please detail the journeys and amounts in question ?

You are required to State your Destination rather than the fare amount.

I rather suspect it is back to the hoary old chesnut of Fare Stages and the secrecy surrounding their location.

On the issue of Change Tickets,do you simply drop in an overpayment without advising the driver ?

If a passengers advises me prior to depositing the amount,it allows me to verify the amount if necessary and issue the change ticket.

However,simply dropping in some coins and assuming the Driver or machine will count them is not going to secure you your change.

I can of course count your cash,but be aware that if I count for one,I count for all.

It's illuminating just how quickly perceptions can change when one is now sitting down watching the same driver counting other peoples cash,this is when the cash-counting becomes a delay although an absolute requirement for onesself ...;)

Leapcards BIG advantage is the elimination of cash transactions allied to cheaper fares.

Had Leapcard been implimented by an entity with any understanding of the realities of Operational Public Transport,the current shambles would not have occured.

But,rant over,and lets hear what those overcharging journeys are ok ?

AlekSmart · 17-02-2013 10:24pm

MOH wrote: »

Sorry, I'm obviously missing something here.

Of course, it's worse for the transport companies, since instead of having €34.01 of the customer's money they've only got €4.01.

But of course the auto top-up feature is purely about benefiting the customer. Isn't it?

It's not the Transport Operators who will have yer money MOH,the funds in the first instance will be held by Leapcard themselves,so it's the good old NTA who will have the benefit and not the Providers until the respective journeys are made.

But your scepticism is well founded,as Leapcard continues to be the great un-grasped oppurtunity to popularize Public Transport usage as well as make it faster and more efficient...instead we have decided to use it as a Turkey.

Esoteric_ · 18-02-2013 12:34am

AlekSmart wrote: »

OK Esoteric,but before getting to excised at individual drivers,could you please detail the journeys and amounts in question ?

You are required to State your Destination rather than the fare amount.

I rather suspect it is back to the hoary old chesnut of Fare Stages and the secrecy surrounding their location.

On the issue of Change Tickets,do you simply drop in an overpayment without advising the driver ?

If a passengers advises me prior to depositing the amount,it allows me to verify the amount if necessary and issue the change ticket.

However,simply dropping in some coins and assuming the Driver or machine will count them is not going to secure you your change.

I can of course count your cash,but be aware that if I count for one,I count for all.

It's illuminating just how quickly perceptions can change when one is now sitting down watching the same driver counting other peoples cash,this is when the cash-counting becomes a delay although an absolute requirement for onesself ...;)

Leapcards BIG advantage is the elimination of cash transactions allied to cheaper fares.

Had Leapcard been implimented by an entity with any understanding of the realities of Operational Public Transport,the current shambles would not have occured.

But,rant over,and lets hear what those overcharging journeys are ok ?

The journeys are all the one, on the 17A, from stop number 1002 (Tonlegee Rd) to stop number 1008 (just off Grange Road). That is 6 stages, and 4-7 stages is 1.90 according to the leapcard.ie website.

First day using the Leapcard, I stated the destination, the driver said it was 1.90 on the Leapcard and took off that amount. Next three times, I was charged 2.10 for each journey (same journey). The vast majority of passengers, both cash and Leapcard, state the fare as opposed to the destination, so I did the same. Logical enough, right? Obviously not something I'm going to do again. :rolleyes:

As for the change on tickets thing, that doesn't bother me. I do tend to tell them if I've overpaid, but I don't mind not getting a ticket back, that was more a tongue in cheek jibe, apologies!

Edit: Just to clarify, I do certainly find Leap Cards much more practical for travel, as I hate carrying change around and having to ensure I have the correct change. I was just pointing out what I feel to be a fairly reasonable gripe based on something that happened with me. It's absolutely no indication that it will happen with anyone else, but this IS called the feedback thread. :pac:

MOH · 18-02-2013 7:40am

I gave up stating my destination ages ago after being overcharged a number of times, possibly related to the current stage on the machine being set incorrectly. WIth paper tickets you can at least see this, with the Leap card you're unlikely to.

BobSmith128 · 18-02-2013 10:54am

It's happened again.
As I tagged on this morning at my train station - my available balance displayed as €49.35!
So doing some sums here - balance before was €19.35. And if you include the maximum fare deduction of €4.50 then my balance before the €30 was applied is €14.85.
So a pattern is appearing here. Looks like my auto top-up balance has been set at €15. Not €10 euro as I was informed it would be!

I'm going to send off another email. Might ring them if I get time later today.
Its kind of annoying as I don't particularly like having such a large amount on my card especially as the person behind me has full view of my balance as they pass through the turnstile.

AlekSmart · 18-02-2013 12:55pm

Esoteric_ wrote: »

The journeys are all the one, on the 17A, from stop number 1002 (Tonlegee Rd) to stop number 1008 (just off Grange Road). That is 6 stages, and 4-7 stages is 1.90 according to the leapcard.ie website.

First day using the Leapcard, I stated the destination, the driver said it was 1.90 on the Leapcard and took off that amount. Next three times, I was charged 2.10 for each journey (same journey). The vast majority of passengers, both cash and Leapcard, state the fare as opposed to the destination, so I did the same. Logical enough, right? Obviously not something I'm going to do again. :rolleyes:

:

Yep,it sure looks like the Fare Stage Location nightmare...as ever...:(

Have to admit I'm not familiar with the actual route,but using the DB site routemaps and attempting to cross-reference with the Stage Listing on the Timetable throws up the usual stuff...

STOP 1002 T/Gee Rd-Malahide Rd Jct ?- Stage 74
STOP 1003 TGR-Springdale Rd
STOP 1004 TGR-Rathvale Drive
STOP 1005 TGR-Limewood Park Stage 75
STOP 1006 TGR-Millbrook Rd
STOP 1007 TGR-Millbrook Drive
STOP 1008 TGR-Grange Rd. Stage 77

The whereabouts of Stage 76 can only be guessed at as the DB/Google Map does not detail "Outside Number 239/245 Tonlagee Rd".

Now I'm entirely shooting in the dark here (Which is the point of the entire sad little tale),but from those details It looks as if you are making a 6 Stop-4 Stage Journey,which is €1.90 On Leapcard ( :eek: )

I'm guessing that either the Drivers have not updated the Stages on the Ticket Machine or they have wrong stages inputted due to ignorance of their actual location.

This could leave you in a situation of being charged for a journey where you were demed to board between a Stage Point and depart betwen a Stage Point,thereby incurrring a double whammy,paying from the preceeding stage and to the following stage.

The reality is that a great many (perhaps now a majority) of Dublin Bus drivers never operated the Fare Stage system when these were clearly marked on-street.

This now leaves the Driver guessing every bit as much as the Customer.

It is a far from acceptable situation and one which is considerably worsened by LeapCard as the passenger now does not have a hardcopy ticket which shows the machine-setting when you boarded.

This dangerous nonsense should never have occurred in the first place,if the company had maintained the hugely sensible practice of having each Fare-Stage displayed on the appropriate Stop.

As far as I can see now,it will take a High-Court action to bring any degree of sense to the situation,something which is always very possible should a passenger decide to take sufficient umbrage.

AlekSmart · 18-02-2013 1:03pm

BobSmith128 wrote: »

It's happened again.
As I tagged on this morning at my train station - my available balance displayed as €49.35!
So doing some sums here - balance before was €19.35. And if you include the maximum fare deduction of €4.50 then my balance before the €30 was applied is €14.85.
So a pattern is appearing here. Looks like my auto top-up balance has been set at €15. Not €10 euro as I was informed it would be!

I'm going to send off another email. Might ring them if I get time later today.
Its kind of annoying as I don't particularly like having such a large amount on my card especially as the person behind me has full view of my balance as they pass through the turnstile.

The bigger issue Bob Smith,as I see it,is people viewing this as losing control over their banking transactions.

The entire Financial Sector is in enough trouble vis a vis Public Regard without the NTA getting involved as well.

Quite a number of people are wary of enabling more Direct Debits than absolutely necessary,and with experiences such as yours,I can not see any compelling reason to allow the NTA such access.

Make the collection of Top-Ups easier,by installing SCV Units on the RTPI Poles,this to expand the On-Line Top-UP system allowing far more Bus users to avail of it.

Make the bloody thing EASIER,rather than adding yet more obstacles.

BobSmith128 · 18-02-2013 1:28pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Make the bloody thing EASIER,rather than adding yet more obstacles.

They really should improve their website too.
It's a navigation nightmare.
I've worked in various IT companies / departments (from the small to the big) where we've hired external PR consultants that critic our websites / software and inform us what an average computer user expects to see and how to simplify user interfaces.

This whole thing should be straightforward and encourage people to join but instead unnecessary barriers are being added to discourage them.

MOH · 18-02-2013 5:06pm

The geniuses sent me an invitation to take part in their auto topup trial. There's only 4 two-hour windows in which you can sign up for the service, and they sent the mail shortly before the end of the first one.

That's organisation for you. It's also limited to 140 people, which seems like a really small number unless the system is far from being ready.

BobSmith128 · 18-02-2013 5:37pm

NTA got back to me.

Dear Bobsmith128

Thank you for getting in touch with us regarding your experience with auto top-up and please accept my apologies if the threshold setting on Irish Rail has caused you any inconvenience.

The objective of this limited trial is to evaluate the efficacy and patterns of usage of auto top-up, and we see feedback during this trial period as being an opportunity to improve and determine how best to operate auto top-up when it is to be launched to the general public.

Thanks to your feedback we know that that the threshold setting on Irish Rail has been set to €15 and not €10 as was stated in the signup email. In the coming weeks we will adjust the threshold setting on Irish Rail to the €10 value and no change is required to your card; from that point on it will only trigger a top-up when the balance goes below €10.00.

While I hope that you find auto top-up useful to you, you have the right to opt out of the trial at any time. If you have any other feedback on auto top-up or the Leap Card in general please do not hesitate to contact customer care.

Kind Regards
NTA

MOH · 18-02-2013 5:51pm

That just displays a staggering lack of communication between the parties involved.

Plus for a system that involves taking money out of people's bank accounts, they don't even seem to have done minimal internal testing before looking for public guinea pigs.

BobSmith128 · 18-02-2013 6:23pm

MOH wrote: »

That just displays a staggering lack of communication between the parties involved.

Plus for a system that involves taking money out of people's bank accounts, they don't even seem to have done minimal internal testing before looking for public guinea pigs.

Yeh my thinking exactly.

It's like "oh yeh Irish Rail have it at 15 euros" - we didn't tell you or we are not really bothered to tell you. And if you want to exit the trial - there's the door".

If they just told me that the trigger top up amount was 15 euros - I would be happy and accept this. But they have to make things incredibly difficult and confusing.

devnull · 18-02-2013 6:54pm

Is this an Irish Rail software problem?

Dravokivich · 18-02-2013 7:05pm

devnull wrote: »

Is this an Irish Rail software problem?

I think with all the enthusiasm Irish rail have shown leapcard and its willingness to support its user base, we can guess this is something they really aren't bothered about, yet again.

Goingnowhere mentioned earlier the threshold is determined by devices. Issue isn't a problem with software, but a decision to configure it differently and lack of follow up by Irish rail to ensure its uniform.

Judging by the comment posted above nta only found out because of his complaint.

Victor · 18-02-2013 7:06pm

devnull wrote: »

Is this an Irish Rail software problem?

More like a database / setting issue.

goingnowhere · 18-02-2013 9:56pm

15 euro was the trigger value during the closed test. They tried different trigger values at different times during the trail and on different operators

Its clear someone didn't change the system

bk · 18-02-2013 10:45pm

I may have many complaints about Leap, but in fairness not this, this is a beta trial, which is supposed to find issues like this.

BabyBirch · 21-02-2013 9:03pm

It would be handy if there was a Leap app, I only use the Leap card rarely because I have a commuter rail ticket, and I can never remember whether I have any credit on it when I'm thinking of hopping on the bus.

Carawaystick · 22-02-2013 5:02pm

I tried to top up my leapcard at a train station machine today.
They are really stupidly designed
If you press back to get to the home screen, you can't top up a leapcard, the top up smart card section is only active if you press the home button, left of the back arrow
Also it's fairly hard/nonobvious to buy a single ticket, two men before me were stumped, til I went through the hoops trying to top up leap

carlmango11 · 23-02-2013 1:07pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

I tried to top up my leapcard at a train station machine today.
They are really stupidly designed
If you press back to get to the home screen, you can't top up a leapcard, the top up smart card section is only active if you press the home button, left of the back arrow
Also it's fairly hard/nonobvious to buy a single ticket, two men before me were stumped, til I went through the hoops trying to top up leap

Just stick the card in and it brings you to the top up screen.

AlekSmart · 23-02-2013 1:25pm

bk wrote: »

I may have many complaints about Leap, but in fairness not this, this is a beta trial, which is supposed to find issues like this.

I wish they could have "Beta Tested" the Wayfarer Bus Ticket Machine somewhat more thoroughly then.....

One issue is that when a BAC smartcard is presented to the Remote Validator coincedentally with a Leapcard on the Drivers TIM,the DRivers machine will blank-out the LeapCard info to show the Remote Info,which if it occurs at the Fare keystroke,results in a non-deduction.

Additionally,the time-lag for LeapCard screen activation is worsening on a daily basis.

The incidence of Bad-Reads generally, is also increasing,and as the entire point of the RFID card is SPEED,it can be very difficult to recall a Leapcard user who has gone through,before the Drivers Leapcard default screen has bothered to activate.

RFID activation times are typically measured in milliseconds (ms),however an increasing number of Bus Leapcard activations are now in the 1-3 second range.

It is S L O W...with a vengeance,so much so,that a savvy pre-sorted Cash Customer will ALWAYS be faster than a Leapcard customer.

By far the biggest and most important issue however,is the absence of ANY dedicated operator feedback structure to Leapcard's I.T section...It's as if nobody is interested ?

lil5 · 23-02-2013 9:11pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

...
One issue is that when a BAC smartcard is presented to the Remote Validator coincedentally with a Leapcard on the Drivers TIM,the DRivers machine will blank-out the LeapCard info to show the Remote Info,which if it occurs at the Fare keystroke,results in a non-deduction.

... the time-lag for LeapCard screen activation is worsening on a daily basis.

The incidence of Bad-Reads generally, is also increasing ...

... an increasing number of Bus Leapcard activations are now in the 1-3 second range.

It is S L O W...with a vengeance ...

... a savvy pre-sorted Cash Customer will ALWAYS be faster than a Leapcard customer.

... the absence of ANY dedicated operator feedback structure to Leapcard's I.T section...

Money well spent so...

trellheim · 24-02-2013 12:56am

The incidence of Bad-Reads generally, is also increasing,and as the entire point of the RFID card is SPEED,it can be very difficult to recall a Leapcard user who has gone through,before the Drivers Leapcard default screen has bothered to activate.

RFID activation times are typically measured in milliseconds (ms),however an increasing number of Bus Leapcard activations are now in the 1-3 second range.

It is S L O W...with a vengeance,so much so,that a savvy pre-sorted Cash Customer will ALWAYS be faster than a Leapcard customer.

By far the biggest and most important issue however,is the absence of ANY dedicated operator feedback structure to Leapcard's I.T section...It's as if nobody is interested ?

I'd have to agree with this. I'm starting to be a LEAP convert ( terrible name for a product, really awful ) but 3 problems are showing up

1. Large amount of bad reads ( out of 10 bus journeys in last 21 days, 3 bad reads)
2. Broken readers - same 21 days, 2 broken readers.

3. Long read times/write times -from when the driver presses the fare button to when the green light blinks - as AS said, 1-3seconds.

Carawaystick · 26-02-2013 8:20pm

carlmango11 wrote: »

Just stick the card in and it brings you to the top up screen.

No, there was no response when I put the card in

Hilly Bill · 28-02-2013 1:00am

Carawaystick wrote: »

I tried to top up my leapcard at a train station machine today.
They are really stupidly designed
If you press back to get to the home screen, you can't top up a leapcard, the top up smart card section is only active if you press the home button, left of the back arrow
Also it's fairly hard/nonobvious to buy a single ticket, two men before me were stumped, til I went through the hoops trying to top up leap

You place the card in the orange pad and then press Top Up, you then get an option to top up by the amount you require.

Its simple enough to buy a single ticket.You press Rail Tickets then you just press on the relevant letter of the name of your destination say P for Pearse. You then get a list of all the stations that gets served from that station and then you choose the one you want . You then get the option to purchase single, return or season tickets.

You press Zone based tickets if you want the zoned tickets.

Carawaystick · 28-02-2013 9:55pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You place the card in the orange pad and then press Top Up, you then get an option to top up by the amount you require.

Its simple enough to buy a single ticket.You press Rail Tickets then you just press on the relevant letter of the name of your destination say P for Pearse. You then get a list of all the stations that gets served from that station and then you choose the one you want . You then get the option to purchase single, return or season tickets.

You press Zone based tickets if you want the zoned tickets.

But placing the card in the machine only works if you press the home button, not if you press the back button, to get to the home screen.

noelfirl · 28-02-2013 10:30pm

Seems like the poster encountered a machine that wasn't on the default screen and that's were the issue came from?

Can't say I've had any issues with the Irish Rail machines myself, plonking the card in the pocket has always just taken me to top up with one tap. Certainly I find them better than the Luas machines in one particular aspect: that is they don't shout out loud to all and sundry that you're about to top up your card.

Hilly Bill · 28-02-2013 10:38pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

But placing the card in the machine only works if you press the home button, not if you press the back button, to get to the home screen.

Either way it only takes a few seconds to top up or buy a ticket. To top up, you choose Use Leapcard, to buy a leap card you choose Buy Leap card.

el flaco · 01-03-2013 11:03am

noelfirl wrote: »

Seems like the poster encountered a machine that wasn't on the default screen and that's were the issue came from?

Can't say I've had any issues with the Irish Rail machines myself, plonking the card in the pocket has always just taken me to top up with one tap. Certainly I find them better than the Luas machines in one particular aspect: that is they don't shout out loud to all and sundry that you're about to top up your card.

Apparently you can turn the audio off on Luas machines. Never bothered trying myself but I imagine there's a speaker icon or something?

Tarabuses · 01-03-2013 9:46pm

el flaco wrote: »

Apparently you can turn the audio off on Luas machines. Never bothered trying myself but I imagine there's a speaker icon or something?

It's not widely publicised if you can.

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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