Is it time to arm ourselves with weapons?

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 8:17am #1

In the front of todays 'The Star' newspaper there is an article about Padraig Nally calling for people in rural areas to arm themselves with guns after the recent spate of violent robberies.

What does AH reckon? Should we arm ourselves and be ready??

Living alone in rural Ireland myself, I can see the advantages, but I'd probably end up accidently shooting myself, so I'll stick with my dog for the moment!!

Feelgood · 10-01-2013 8:26am

I am armed already, with my penis.

Canis Lupus · 10-01-2013 8:29am

I want bear arms.

seamus · 10-01-2013 8:31am

Padraig Nally shot a fleeing injured man in the back. What would he know about self defence?

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 8:35am

PC brigade are up early:D

super_furry · 10-01-2013 8:37am

Boombastic wrote: »

PC brigade are up early:D

Excellent point, well argued. :pac:

Extinction · 10-01-2013 8:38am

seamus wrote: »

Padraig Nally shot a fleeing injured man in the back. What would he know about self defence?

Padraig Nally shot a thief, he could probably teach teach us a lot about how to treat criminals.

Death and Taxes · 10-01-2013 8:40am

Extinction wrote: »

Padraig Nally shot a thief, he could probably teach teach us a lot about how to treat criminals.

He shot dead an injured man crawling away from him on a public road.

Extinction · 10-01-2013 8:46am

WileyCoyote wrote: »

He shot dead an injured man crawling away from him on a public road.

An injured thief with 80 previous convictions.

Jimmy Garlic · 10-01-2013 8:48am

WileyCoyote wrote: »

He shot dead an injured man crawling away from him on a public road.

A man with over 80 convictions, many of them for assault. The man in question was a violent criminal.

Auldloon · 10-01-2013 8:49am

WileyCoyote wrote: »

He shot dead an injured man crawling away from him on a public road.

An injured scumbag with a history of violent attacks. I would have done the same.

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 8:50am

WileyCoyote wrote: »

He shot dead an injured man crawling away from him on a public road.

Well if the gardai couldn't catch him....

Ward was a 43-year-old traveller with approximately 80 convictions from 38 separate court appearances and had convictions for burglary, larceny and assault.[3] John "Frog" Ward had twice been committed to hospital for psychiatric treatment.[2] In 1999, he threatened a barman with a Stanley knife [4] Ward attacked a car with a slash-hook while a woman and two children were inside.[3] Ward had threatened Gárdaí in an incident in May 2002 [3] and with a slash, in April 2002.[3] At the time of his death he was facing charges of attacking Gardaí with a slash hook.[5] The court heard that a post-mortem examination and toxicology tests on Mr Ward's body found traces of cannabis, opiates and tranquillisers. It was also emphasised that Mr Ward had been receiving hospital treatment and was on medication for a condition.[5] The Prime Time Special (RTÉ flagship current affairs programme) brought forward new evidence showing that John Ward had a long criminal record dating back over 30 years and revealed that four bench warrants for John Ward’s arrest were outstanding at the time of his death [6]

intellectual dosser · 10-01-2013 8:51am

Extinction wrote: »

Padraig Nally shot a thief, he could probably teach teach us a lot about how to treat criminals.

Like how the punishment for burglary is death? Why wouldn't it surprise me with some of the inbalances in sentences being given out in this country.

No we shouldnt arm ourselves with weapons. IMO one of the reasons there is such a problem implementing gun control in America is because they have been so available for hundreds of years that there's now hundreds of millions out amongst the populace. Why would anyone want to be denied a gun knowing that millions of others have them, I wouldnt want to see a similar situation in Ireland.

Find the criminals involved in the burglaries and throw them in a cell with some big baldy bull qu**r for 5 years.

Jimmy Garlic · 10-01-2013 8:58am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Like how the punishment for burglary is death? Why wouldn't it surprise me with some of the inbalances in sentences being given out in this country.

Fair game imo. You can hand wring all you like but if someone broke into your property you would wish you had a gun.

Extinction · 10-01-2013 9:01am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Like how the punishment for burglary is death? Why wouldn't it surprise me with some of the inbalances in sentences being given out in this country.

No we shouldnt arm ourselves with weapons. IMO one of the reasons there is such a problem implementing gun control in America is because they have been so available for hundreds of years that there's now hundreds of millions out amongst the populace. Why would anyone want to be denied a gun knowing that millions of others have them, I wouldnt want to see a similar situation in Ireland.

Find the criminals involved in the burglaries and throw them in a cell with some big baldy bull qu**r for 5 years.

Garda numbers are being cut, there is no room in the prisons and no money to build more, older people and not so older people feel threatened, there are scumbags carrying out violent assaults. What should a person who is about to be assaulted do? Just roll over and accept becoming another victim?

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 9:02am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Like how the punishment for burglary is death?

Well if they trespass on someones property with intent to harm/rob, why are they so surprised when they are tackled?

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Find the criminals involved in the burglaries and throw them in a cell with some big baldy bull qu**r for 5 years.

In many cases the justice system has failed the people. How many convictions does someone need to be taken off the streets? All the time we hear of crimes committed by people with 50+ convictions

*polishes gun in rocking chair on porch

intellectual dosser · 10-01-2013 9:07am

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Fair game imo. You can hand wring all you like but if someone broke into your property you would wish you had a gun.

Good luck to you, you'll have to hope there is some technicality similar to Nally's that will get you off the hook.

intellectual dosser · 10-01-2013 9:09am

Boombastic wrote: »

Well if they trespass on someones property with intent to harm/rob, why are they so surprised when they are tackled?

I cannot agree that the punishment for trespassing/burglary is death.

Boombastic wrote: »

In many cases the justice system has failed the people. How many convictions does someone need to be taken off the streets? All the time we hear of crimes committed by people with 50+ convictions

Thats an argument for fixing our justice system, not arming ourselves with guns.

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 9:10am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Good luck to you, you'll have to hope there is some technicality similar to Nally's that will get you off the hook.

If that 94 year old women in Donegal had a gun and had used it, would the intruders be the victims all of a sudden?

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Thats an argument for fixing our justice system, not arming ourselves with guns.

The only fixing that has been done recently is the law allowing people to defend themselves in their own homes, pushing people to consider arming themselves. Instead of paying for all this legal aid to keep these people out of prison, we should invest it in protecting the citizens. How much every year is spend on legal aid for repeat offenders?

gimli2112 · 10-01-2013 9:10am

It would certainly help us with our population problem.

Extinction · 10-01-2013 9:10am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Good luck to you, you'll have to hope there is some technicality similar to Nally's that will get you off the hook.

Technicality or not I would protect my family.

intellectual dosser · 10-01-2013 9:14am

Boombastic wrote: »

If that 94 year old women in Donegal had a gun and had used it, would the intruders be the victims all of a sudden?

The only fixing that has been done recently is the law allowing people to defend themselves in their own homes, pushing people to consider arming themselves.

So, the context when I started posting was a 'thief in your home', Ward never attacked Nally to my knowledge.

The Donegal woman was viciously assaulted and of course she has every right to defend herself.

Extinction · 10-01-2013 9:19am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

So, the context when I started posting was a 'thief in your home', Ward never attacked Nally to my knowledge.

The Donegal woman was viciously assaulted and of course she has every right to defend herself.

I'm fairly sure that the context and the words that were used in the opening post was 'violent robberies'

Jimmy Garlic · 10-01-2013 9:21am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Good luck to you, you'll have to hope there is some technicality similar to Nally's that will get you off the hook.

"The Criminal Law (Defence and the Dwelling) Act 2011, allows for reasonable force by people who believe they need to use it to protect those in dwellings from assault, to protect property, to prevent a crime or to make an arrest. The law no longer requires a homeowner to retreat from a burglar, and extends to lands immediately around a dwelling."

There you go. If some punk wants to make my day then so be it.

gobnaitolunacy · 10-01-2013 9:22am

Boombastic wrote: »

Well if the gardai couldn't catch him....

Ward was a 43-year-old traveller with approximately 80 convictions from 38 separate court appearances and had convictions for burglary, larceny and assault.[3] John "Frog" Ward had twice been committed to hospital for psychiatric treatment.[2] In 1999, he threatened a barman with a Stanley knife [4] Ward attacked a car with a slash-hook while a woman and two children were inside.[3] Ward had threatened Gárdaí in an incident in May 2002 [3] and with a slash, in April 2002.[3] At the time of his death he was facing charges of attacking Gardaí with a slash hook.[5] The court heard that a post-mortem examination and toxicology tests on Mr Ward's body found traces of cannabis, opiates and tranquillisers. It was also emphasised that Mr Ward had been receiving hospital treatment and was on medication for a condition.[5] The Prime Time Special (RTÉ flagship current affairs programme) brought forward new evidence showing that John Ward had a long criminal record dating back over 30 years and revealed that four bench warrants for John Ward’s arrest were outstanding at the time of his death [6]

Somehow they find catching and containing some sections of society harder than others. How in world could this man still be at liberty at the time?

I dislike going down the right to bear arms route as in the States, but what valid option do frightened elderly people in rural areas have?

Edit: The article is sh*t-stirring in nature, but that is what you would expect from a populist red-top rag.

Thing is, if the justice system actually functioned as it should, the scumbag would be still alive, albeit behind bars.

Leftist · 10-01-2013 9:24am

the answer is yes.

due to a few attacks in rural areas we should sell firearms openly to everyone. Or is that just people from rural areas?

what a great, great idea.

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 9:27am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

....

The Donegal woman was viciously assaulted and of course she has every right to defend herself.

Yes, violent robberies

What if she pulled the trigger when as they were coming to assault her? They could claim they weren't there to rob her, only for a cup of tea. She'd be vilified. They'd be the victims.

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Somehow they find catching and containing some sections of society harder than others. How in world could this man still be at liberty at the time?

I dislike going down the right to bear arms route as in the States, but what valid option do frightened elderly people in rural areas have?

Especially when they know that there is no Gardai on duty within a 20 mile radius because stations have been shut down:(

BrensBenz · 10-01-2013 9:27am

Eh, lads? The Star?? Muck-stirring and yiz are falling for it.

Back to original question about arming ourselves. Let's, as usual, examine Yankland, but in a more caring, cuddly kind of way, i.e. we could issue free assault weapons and armour-piercing rounds with pensions and job-seekers allowances. After all, thanks to their translation of their constitooshunal right to bear arms to a padryotic dooty to bear arms, the US is crime free and....oh, wait, where's delete?
Anyway, there was no crime in Nurn Arn when the B-Specials and RUC had their weapons at home and ....oh, wait.
Well, maybe some weapons....for trained personnel, like the Gorthee. Oh, wait, Abbeylara!

Some time ago, my house was ignored during a local spate of burglaries. My family and our eleven stone Bernese Mountain Dog felt ostracised. When the BMD passed away, we economised and got a little Springer, but still no burglaries! Sorry but, when he goes, I'll draw the line at bug-eyed pugs and other canine rodents. Another loud, excited, unpredictable, thick-as-two-planks mutt for me.

PS: My buddy has a parrot who, whenever someone approaches the front door, shouts "there's no-one in". My buddy hasn't been burgled either!

Wing126 · 10-01-2013 9:31am

No. I don't want the type of people who would be robbing someone to have easier access to guns to use to rob people.

intellectual dosser · 10-01-2013 9:33am

Extinction wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that the context and the words that were used in the opening post was 'violent robberies'

I started posting in response to this:

Extinction wrote: »

Padraig Nally shot a thief, he could probably teach teach us a lot about how to treat criminals.

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

"The Criminal Law (Defence and the Dwelling) Act 2011, allows for reasonable force by people who believe they need to use it to protect those in dwellings from assault, to protect property, to prevent a crime or to make an arrest. The law no longer requires a homeowner to retreat from a burglar, and extends to lands immediately around a dwelling."

There you go. If some punk wants to make my day then so be it.

Marvellous ambiguous Irish legislation. Are there examples of reasonable force and what that implies? Context given on "believe they need to use it"?

Given that the thread is in reference to Nally, he said he was frightened for his life of Ward while standing over his crouched injured body before killing him from point blank range. You can expect these kind of defenses from people who felt they 'needed to use it'.

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 9:34am

BrensBenz wrote: »

Eh, lads? The Star?? Muck-stirring and yiz are falling for it.

Back to original question about arming ourselves. Let's, as usual, examine Yankland, but in a more caring, cuddly kind of way, i.e. we could issue free assault weapons and armour-piercing rounds with pensions and job-seekers allowances. After all, thanks to their translation of their constitooshunal right to bear arms to a padryotic dooty to bear arms, the US is crime free and....oh, wait, where's delete?
Anyway, there was no crime in Nurn Arn when the B-Specials and RUC had their weapons at home and ....oh, wait.
Well, maybe some weapons....for trained personnel, like the Gorthee. Oh, wait, Abbeylara!

Some time ago, my house was ignored during a local spate of burglaries. My family and our eleven stone Bernese Mountain Dog felt ostracised. When the BMD passed away, we economised and got a little Springer, but still no burglaries! Sorry but, when he goes, I'll draw the line at bug-eyed pugs and other canine rodents. Another loud, excited, unpredictable, thick-as-two-planks mutt for me.

PS: My buddy has a parrot who, whenever someone approaches the front door, shouts "there's no-one in". My buddy hasn't been burgled either!

Why compare us to the states? We are nothing like the states

Other countries have legal firearms allowed

With less than 5% of the world's population, the United States is home to roughly 35–50 per cent of the world's civilian-owned guns, heavily skewing the global geography of firearms and any relative comparison

BabyMonkeyy · 10-01-2013 9:35am

The general population should not have a right to arm themselves with a gun. All you have to do is look at America. People can not be trusted with one.

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 9:38am

BabyMonkeyy wrote: »

The general population should not have a right to arm themselves with a gun. All you have to do is look at America. People can not be trusted with one.

and religion shouldn't be allowed, just look at the Westboro baptist church:rolleyes:

Gummy Panda · 10-01-2013 9:51am

We should commission an ED-209 program.

laoch na mona · 10-01-2013 9:53am

guns? its hard to get a license knives though:D

in all seriousness don't go killing lads tis a bit harsh

leonidas83 · 10-01-2013 9:56am

laoch na mona wrote: »

guns? its hard to get a license knives though:D

in all seriousness don't go killing lads tis a bit harsh

Maybe you can tell violent thieves when they enter your home that their being a bit 'harsh'

laoch na mona · 10-01-2013 10:02am

Boombastic wrote: »

In many cases the justice system has failed the people. How many convictions does someone need to be taken off the streets? All the time we hear of crimes committed by people with 50+ convictions

all that shows is that prisons don't work we need to come up with a better way to tackle crime all we do is label criminals which makes them criminals for life

Buford Tannen · 10-01-2013 10:03am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I cannot agree that the punishment for trespassing/burglary is death.

But rape is ok?

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Find the criminals involved in the burglaries and throw them in a cell with some big baldy bull qu**r for 5 years.

mahonykid · 10-01-2013 10:04am

You have to look at both sides of the spectrum here. With people arming themselves with guns, chances are the thief coming into your home will now be armed with one too, instead of the usual Stanley knife or screwdriver

seamus · 10-01-2013 10:07am

I'm not sure at what point your right to protect some aribtrary piece of property trumps someone else's right to life.

Protect yourself and your family, fine, but I see no logic in allowing someone to use lethal force to protect property. It's just stuff.

In any case, weapons which are held for home defence are more likely to be used on the homeowner than an intruder.

I agree that there seems to be an increase in violent burglaries, but having a weapon at home just means the burglars will kill you with your own gun instead of just beating the ****e out of you. Or that your child or another family member will accidentally or otherwise use the weapon on themselves or on you.

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 10:14am

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure at what point your right to protect some aribtrary piece of property trumps someone else's right to life.

Protect yourself and your family, fine, but I see no logic in allowing someone to use lethal force to protect property. It's just stuff.

In any case, weapons which are held for home defence are more likely to be used on the homeowner than an intruder.

I agree that there seems to be an increase in violent burglaries, but having a weapon at home just means the burglars will kill you with your own gun instead of just beating the ****e out of you. Or that your child or another family member will accidentally or otherwise use the weapon on themselves or on you.

While agree about the property in itself not being worth loosing a life over, but if the property is in your bedroom/house and you are sleeping? While they might only be there to take the property, they have invaded your space and threatened the safety of your home/family. How are you supposed to know what exactly their motives are (and using violence seems to be their trademark) until afterwards?

Burglars are using peoples own kettles, threatening to scald them...Should this weapon also be banned as intruders are more likely to use it against the residents than the residents against the burglars?

Obviously guns should be kept out of reach of children? Surely than can happen with currently legally held guns too?

wendell borton · 10-01-2013 10:17am

Does a hurley count?

Uriel. · 10-01-2013 10:21am

I think anyone who is in or on your property with the intention of robbery and/or to do you harm is fair game to be blasted away. There's a very simple solution for the "victim" of such a death... Do not go out robbing / harming others.

Nally is a legend in my books. You can ****e on about shooting the guy in the back but they shouldn't have been on Nallys property at that hour of the night and it would seem it wasn't their first time to be sniffing around. Nally obviously thought to himself feck it I'm not living in this kinda fear. What happens next time they come around. Well there was no next time and Nally made sure of that. I have no sympathy for Ward whatsoever.

That being said i do not agree with arming the general populous. More guns is a bad thing and we don't need to be like the US. I do believe in arming more (not all) gardai

seamus · 10-01-2013 10:21am

Boombastic wrote: »

threatened the safety of your family

That's all that matters.
The safety of your property is irrelevant. If someone is in your bedroom while you're asleep, even if they're only looking for property, you have reasonable cause for fearing for your safety.

If someone is downstairs trying to take your TV, then by all means confront them if you think you can get them to drop the TV and leave. But you can't justify killing them on the basis of protecting some trinkets.

Obviously guns should be kept out of reach of children? Surely than can happen with currently legally held guns too?

Yep, and it does.

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 10:24am

wendell borton wrote: »

Does a hurley count?

Mine doesn't but it knows the alphabet:D

Gulliver · 10-01-2013 10:27am

AFAIK the Nally case was special in that he had been repeatedly terrorised in his own home/property. Possibly by the person he ended up shooting.

There are a lot of people on here that seem to think that someone who breaks into your home with a weapon has no intention of using it. "Shure if ye let them pull away at it and don't try to stop them ye'll be fine".

Yeah. There are so many ways a situation can go bad -

you accidentally see their faces
you recognise their voice (lotta locals commit the robberies)
they fall out with each other and start into your family as well
they think "this is going so well... he's not resisting... look at his daughter, I think I'll have a go of that"
they think you have other money and start torturing you to tell them
etc

Now if you have the opportunity to stop them before the situation gets out of hand, knowing that there is a slight possibility that these are honourable guys and won't hurt you, or a greater possibility it would get worse - would you do whatever needs to be done?

Dyr · 10-01-2013 10:27am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Like how the punishment for burglary is death? Why wouldn't it surprise me with some of the inbalances in sentences being given out in this country.

No the risk of carrying out burglaries is death, and well it should be.

laoch na mona · 10-01-2013 10:28am

leonidas83 wrote: »

Maybe you can tell violent thieves when they enter your home that their being a bit 'harsh'

there is nothing wrong with self defense but murder is murder you don't get to decide if someone else lives or dies not saying you can't touch them but if you kill them face the consequences a court would hear that they were trying to rob you and it wouldn't be the same as stabbing a lad outside a pub

Dyr · 10-01-2013 10:29am

[QUOTE=seamus;82608728
In any case, weapons which are held for home defence are more likely to be used on the homeowner than an intruder.

[/QUOTE]

I'd love to see the research behind that.

mahonykid · 10-01-2013 10:29am

Gulliver wrote: »

AFAIK the Nally case was special in that he had been repeatedly terrorised in his own home/property. Possibly by the person he ended up shooting.

Agreed, i think it had gotten to the stage where he had taken to staying up all night in his shed because he was afraid of staying in his own home

Ush1 · 10-01-2013 10:31am

seamus wrote: »

That's all that matters.
The safety of your property is irrelevant. If someone is in your bedroom while you're asleep, even if they're only looking for property, you have reasonable cause for fearing for your safety.

If someone is downstairs trying to take your TV, then by all means confront them if you think you can get them to drop the TV and leave. But you can't justify killing them on the basis of protecting some trinkets.

Yep, and it does.

It's a difficult thing to quantify though isn't it? Are my family really in danger if someone is downstairs?

They could be coming upstairs and you're missing out on your chance to sneak up on them etc...

The law could say, just aim low?:D

Is it time to arm ourselves with weapons?

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