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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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    #6812
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    danthefan wrote: »
    Could not agree more. Whenever I see "game management" in a post these days I just stop reading. I'm convinced 95% of people don't even know what they mean when they use the term. Further to that if outhalf A plays rubbish for 75 minutes then kicks a great touchfinder into the corner and the team win, while outhalf B plays really well and just creates 5 tries for his team and they win at a canter, people seem to think outhalf A is the better "game manager", which is just patently nonsense.

    Just because some people don't know what game management means (ROG fans over the past 3 years) doesn't mean it isn't hugely important. It's the most important part of a 10s game. And I'm talking about actual game management, which doesn't necessarily involve a single kick of the ball.

    I agree with you completely that there are people out there who haven't a notion what it means. At some point people were watching ROG kicking the ball and just assumed that game management referred to his actual ability to kick the ball, which it never did.


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    #6813
    Banbridgeman2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 322 ✭✭Banbridgeman2


    'game management', 'unseen work', 'great at lifting in the lineout' - all terms of nonsense made up to justify the selection of lesser players over superior ones on the basis of bias.


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    #6814
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Banbridgeman2 wrote: »
    'game management', 'unseen work', 'great at lifting in the lineout' - all terms of nonsense made up to justify the selection of lesser players over superior ones on the basis of bias.

    Not true at all.

    They are used to justify incorrect selections, IMO, but they are certainly not nonsense.

    (Well "unseen work" is absolute nonsense. I've always thought its a placeholder for "he's good at something I don't understand").


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    #6815
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Game management is an absolutely valid term. If people would rather it be called decision making, then so be it. Or controlling a game. If you win scrappy line out ball in your own 22 and the defensive line is set, you don't try to sling it wide unless you've spotted something. You send that ball as high and far towards row Z at the halfway line as you can. If you're in your own 22 and your pack is failing to get on top with the opposition slowing the ball down, there's nothing wrong with slotting a kick in behind their back three. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with checking your own back line and calling an up and under and chase to land around their 22.

    Game management can be varying the passing, picking out different areas to attack etc. Madigan isn't great at it. We've seen in the past the fondness for the big skip pass repeatedly. Great skill to watch but the more it's used, the less effective it becomes.His kicking from hand is patchy.

    Game management is dictating the game and influencing what areas of the field play takes place in. It's as applicable to scrumhalves as it is outhalves. For the record, there will always be room for kicking for touch in rugby. Even with the concession of possession, anything that gives a massive gain in territory will be considered.


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    #6816
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Not true at all.

    They are used to justify incorrect selections, IMO, but they are certainly not nonsense.

    (Well "unseen work" is absolute nonsense. I've always thought its a placeholder for "he's good at something I don't understand").

    Usually used by journalists who like to think they have some arcane knowledge of rugby. Often to defend a player that Joe Public doesn't rate: eg Reuben Thorne does a lot of "unseen work".


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    #6817
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Our worst fears confirmed...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20197444


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    #6818
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    GerM wrote: »
    Game management is an absolutely valid term. If people would rather it be called decision making, then so be it. Or controlling a game. If you win scrappy line out ball in your own 22 and the defensive line is set, you don't try to sling it wide unless you've spotted something. You send that ball as high and far towards row Z at the halfway line as you can. If you're in your own 22 and your pack is failing to get on top with the opposition slowing the ball down, there's nothing wrong with slotting a kick in behind their back three. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with checking your own back line and calling an up and under and chase to land around their 22.

    Game management can be varying the passing, picking out different areas to attack etc. Madigan isn't great at it. We've seen in the past the fondness for the big skip pass repeatedly. Great skill to watch but the more it's used, the less effective it becomes.His kicking from hand is patchy.

    Game management is dictating the game and influencing what areas of the field play takes place in. It's as applicable to scrumhalves as it is outhalves. For the record, there will always be room for kicking for touch in rugby. Even with the concession of possession, anything that gives a massive gain in territory will be considered.

    Are you a teacher in your other life?


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    #6819
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Our worst fears confirmed...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20197444

    It's bad news alright. TBH, it is very difficult to see Ireland beating SA now with so many injuries to so many pivotal players. Love him or loathe him, you would have to give Kidney credit if they did actually nick a victory.


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    #6820
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Swiwi wrote: »
    Are you a teacher in your other life?

    Quiet down the back.


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    #6821
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Our worst fears confirmed...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20197444

    His injuries don't ever seem to be connected. What is wrong with him?! It's just becoming upsetting.


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    #6822
    ray jay
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭ray jay


    On our injuries and the match against SA: it's not that important that we get a result against them, we'd have to lose to Argentina too befeore our top 8 ranking would be threatened.
    .ak wrote: »
    Madigan has game management. He just uses his passing abilities to put backs into space. He can open up a game because of that. Just because his kicking from hand isn't 100% doesn't mean he can't orchestrate his team.

    The latter issue could be a reason he isn't being selected. The other is probably because it would leave Leinster without ANY OH cover.

    Leinster are going to be down to a bare bones choice of hookers so I doubt ensuring they have players available for a particular position is the reason Madigan has been left out of the Ireland squad. The most likely explanation is that he and Keatley haven't been getting as much game time at 10 due to O'Gara and Sexton being the incumbents. It's probably worse for Keatley, he's better than ROG at 10 but can play in positions other than fly half, so he gets bumped whenever required.
    Hersheys wrote: »
    Given Deccies previous decisions it's likely:

    Doc
    Poc
    Ryan
    Pom
    Heaslip
    Ryan is not a good blindside, I'd much prefer to see POM or McLaughlin there instead.


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    #6823
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    GerM wrote: »
    Quiet down the back.

    Thought so ;)


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    #6824
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Odd to think that people like Cian Healy who made his debut at the end of 2009 has as many caps as Fez. I really can't see him lasting another couple of seasons. His body is held together by sticky tape at this point. Whilst many of the injuries are different, I have to wonder if they're all as a result of his knees i.e. the issue with his knees has forced him to adjust his training and techniques to the extent that it has put extra pressure on his other joints.


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    #6825
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,023 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    GerM wrote: »
    For the record, there will always be room for kicking for touch in rugby. Even with the concession of possession, anything that gives a massive gain in territory will be considered.

    There is a place for it but it is generally very poor game management to constantly kick for touch when you need points and your lineout has shown it isnt turning over any ball. This seems to be a key aspect of "Kidney ball" but what worked for Munster back in the dark ages is not right for Ireland and the way rugby has moved on.


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    #6826
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Ferris for all his quality is imo in the position that its nice to have him but he can't be counted on. Either he will be injured coming into the match or he will be injured during the match.

    Backrow will probably be 6.POM 7.Henry 8.Heaslip 20.McLaughlin

    I would personally prefer POM and McLaughlin swap.

    Would really like to see Henderson playing the Fiji game, and if he does well the Argentina game. He could be a real replacement for Ferris in the longer term.


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    #6827
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,023 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Swiwi wrote: »
    It's bad news alright. TBH, it is very difficult to see Ireland beating SA now with so many injuries to so many pivotal players. Love him or loathe him, you would have to give Kidney credit if they did actually nick a victory.

    Aren't SA and Argentina missing loads of players as well (this will obviously be ignored by the Kidney apologists in the Irish media, we've already seen Thornley getting the excuses started early)?


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    #6828
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    There is a place for it but it is generally very poor game management to constantly kick for touch when you need points and your lineout has shown it isnt turning over any ball. This seems to be a key aspect of "Kidney ball" but what worked for Munster back in the dark ages is not right for Ireland and the way rugby has moved on.

    I do agree but kicking for touch isn't primarily based on winning the opposition's line out. That's the best case scenario. Teams are happy to settle for forcing the opposition outhalf to kick for touch from in their own 22 with very little angle which will provide a significant net gain of territory and possession. It seems fairly mundane and it is but it's a regularly used tactic. The alternative is the scrum half kicking to your back three and getting the ball where you originally had it in space unless it's a very good box kick which is a difficult skill to master.

    Of course, if the opposition have an outhalf that can kick 40m with no angle or a scrum half that can land a box kick pretty much where he wants, it's not a great tactic to employ.


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    #6829
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Aren't SA and Argentina missing loads of players as well (this will obviously be ignored by the Kidney apologists in the Irish media, we've already seen Thornley getting the excuses started early)?

    Plenty. The five back row players SA have on tour have a combined 43 international caps. They're pretty good players, mind you, but with home advantage, it's anyone's game.


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    #6830
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,748 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    irishbucsfan wrote: »

    His injuries don't ever seem to be connected. What is wrong with him?! It's just becoming upsetting.

    It may be that his knee and it's lack of cartilage puts strain on the rest of his body. In saying that he was a bit unlucky on Friday, he just landed awkwardly on his ankle...it happens...Hopefully he is fit for the HEC in December.


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    #6831
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    South Africa are missing Tiaan Liebenberg, Coenie Oosthuizen, Andries Bekker, Siya Kolisi, Jacques Potgieter, Pierre Spies, Johan Goosen, Frans Steyn, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith and Heinrich Brüssow.

    They'll still be very strong though. They have far more depth than we do. We should still be able to beat them IMO.


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    #6832
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    bilston wrote: »
    It may be that his knee and it's lack of cartilage puts strain on the rest of his body. In saying that he was a bit unlucky on Friday, he just landed awkwardly on his ankle...it happens...Hopefully he is fit for the HEC in December.
    not an expert here but it was mentioned to me that when Ferris jumps he adjusts his knee position so that when he lands less impact is taken by his knees. Impact instead goes to his ankle thigh and hip muscles


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    #6833
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Aren't SA and Argentina missing loads of players as well (this will obviously be ignored by the Kidney apologists in the Irish media, we've already seen Thornley getting the excuses started early)?

    Can't speak for Argentina, but while SA do have a fair number of injuries they do have better depth than Ireland. And no I am not a Kidney apologist. But sure if Ireland win, no doubt you won't take the victory, given you're playing a weakened SA side...


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    #6834
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    South Africa are missing Tiaan Liebenberg, Coenie Oosthuizen, Andries Bekker, Siya Kolisi, Jacques Potgieter, Pierre Spies, Johan Goosen, Frans Steyn, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith and Heinrich Brüssow.

    They'll still be very strong though. They have far more depth than we do. We should still be able to beat them IMO.

    Forget about Juan Smith, I reckon that guy's been injured for 18 to 24 months now. They'll still be citing him as an injured player in 10 years time at this rate. Frans Steyn is probably the biggest loss, in the sense that the SAs have less depth in their midfield than other positions.


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    #6835
    armchaircoach
    Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭armchaircoach


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    South Africa are missing Tiaan Liebenberg, Coenie Oosthuizen, Andries Bekker, Siya Kolisi, Jacques Potgieter, Pierre Spies, Johan Goosen, Frans Steyn, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith and Heinrich Brüssow.

    They'll still be very strong though. They have far more depth than we do. We should still be able to beat them IMO.

    I'm pretty sure Brian habanna is out as well


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    #6836
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Swiwi wrote: »
    Can't speak for Argentina, but while SA do have a fair number of injuries they do have better depth than Ireland. And no I am not a Kidney apologist. But sure if Ireland win, no doubt you won't take the victory, given you're playing a weakened SA side...

    They have better depth but we are at home. You could say they are 'battle hardened' from a long season, or you could say they're fatigued after a long season. It's a toss up really, and we do have an OK record against them, but unless we absolutely tear them to pieces it will be a decent win but not much more. Not that I'll be complaining.


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    #6837
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    armchaircoach wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure Brian habanna is out as well

    Yep, well spotted. Actually he is their biggest loss.


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    #6838
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    Tox56 wrote: »
    They have better depth but we are at home. You could say they are 'battle hardened' from a long season, or you could say they're fatigued after a long season. It's a toss up really, and we do have an OK record against them, but unless we absolutely tear them to pieces it will be a decent win but not much more. Not that I'll be complaining.

    If you guys win it will be a fantastic victory, sorry. Firstly, it will utterly cement your top 8 standing. Secondly, need I remind you the last time out was 0-60, so that would be a huge turnaround in fortunes. Thirdly, you will have done it without inspirational players such as BOD & SOB. Last but not least, there would be a fair share of happy Kiwis ;)


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    #6839
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    armchaircoach wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure Brian habanna is out as well

    Yes, and Bismarck Du Plessis! Left them out for some reason.


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    #6840
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Yes, and Bismarck Du Plessis! Left them out for some reason.

    I'm making a fool of myself (not the first time some of you will say). He tucks in just behind Habana for most valuable missing player.


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    #6841
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Swiwi wrote: »
    If you guys win it will be a fantastic victory, sorry. Firstly, it will utterly cement your top 8 standing. Secondly, need I remind you the last time out was 0-60, so that would be a huge turnaround in fortunes. Thirdly, you will have done it without inspirational players such as BOD & SOB. Last but not least, there would be a fair share of happy Kiwis ;)

    We could lose and it would still be a huge turnaround in fortunes from the 60-0, provided we score at least a point and concede less than 50! We're without experienced, inspirational players and so are they. They have better depth but we are at home.

    Last time we played the Saffers ROG missed a conversion for a tie, and the time before that we beat them (and we beat them the time before that too, although that's a while ago now).


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