Seems Michael Collins and Padraig Pearse were gay?

jill_valentine · 09-10-2012 11:49pm

An Coilean wrote: »

The impression I get from what I have read on the matter is that Casement was Gay, and when the British found 'incriminating' documents to that effect they used them in a smear campaign against him.

Gosh, well that's interesting.

After Hours, an education as always.

K-9 · 09-10-2012 11:57pm

tayto lover wrote: »

What was Sammy doing in the nip in the green fields of France i wonder?

He lied to feel the smell of the poppies in the morning.

Sleepy · 09-10-2012 11:59pm

Maxim Cool Respirator wrote: »

Freddie Mercury was never married to a woman.

No, but Elton John was....

asherbassad · 10-10-2012 12:48am

tomtherobot wrote: »

I found myself leafing through yesterdays Irish Times (it's pretty ****e i know) and found an excerpt from David Norris book, he's talking about the gay right movement in Ireland and goes on to strongly suggest that Roger Casement, Padraig Pearse, Michael Collins and Eoin O'Duffy were gay.

Now personally I don't have a homophobic bone in my body (stop) but isn't it a bit weird outing people like this when there dead? Also, I'd love to know what the republicans here think of this?

I know its been widely suggested before that Roger Casement was gay but the other three came as a bit of a shock to me. For one thing i want me money back from the Liam Neeson/Julia Roberts movie. Damn you Hollywood lies....

Does it matter?
Charles Stuart Parnell, a philanderer?
Wolfe Tone a Prot?
Gerry Adams' brother a paedophile?
Nelson Mandela's ex-wife a sex-starved diva with 50 bank accounts?
Bernadette McAliskey...a whore who had a child out of wedlock

Or we have

George W Bush a torturer of animals
Bennazir Bhutto a corrupt murderess
Dick Cheney a 5 time draft dodger and advocate of torture

So the homos and degenerates actually did a spot of fighting for what they thought was right and most took a bullet.
The world leaders, ducked that bullet.
Where are you Blair?

suicide_circus · 10-10-2012 1:03am

And i've heard that Michael D. Higgins likes it up the Aras

Mickey H · 10-10-2012 1:32am

IvySlayer wrote: »

Maybe he was so good at fashion, they had to shoot him :P

Thanks Dougal.

kincsem wrote: »

Padraic Pearse went around Rathmines dressed as a woman allegedly. Probably just doing a bit of auld spying.

Sure Deveen hoored for Ireland. The film says so.

General General · 10-10-2012 1:34am

The Cumback Kid didn't talk much about this when he was running for Presidento.

Sir Pompous Righteousness · 10-10-2012 1:36am

... or they could have been bisexual! Michael Collins did like women, there's no doubt in that.

Chuck Stone · 10-10-2012 1:54am

Can we all just agree that every significant person in history was gay and move on?

Oh, while we're here can we say every nice car is gay too?

And cake.

And Christmas.

Think that has it covered.

kowloon · 10-10-2012 1:59am

jill_valentine wrote: »

It's making bad history in bad faith and it's nonsense. You cannot tell the story of Alan Turing without speaking of his orientation, any more than you could describe him without mentioning that he liked breaking codes a bit.

I agree that it's wrong to purposely write out parts of a person's life, but to focus on someone's sex life because they're gay seems a bit like pointing the finger, saying 'this isn't normal'. I'm not sure that's a desired outcome either.

Alan Turing is a bit of a special case because he was treated horribly and prosecuted for being gay, that often gets him an extra line in texts that would only mention him.

Someone's sexuality is only relevant if it weighs in on the topic being written about. If I decided to write about some general and their campaign in whereverland, what they like to get up to in the bedroom, gay or not, is irrelevant. Unless they're banging their chief of staff...

Spread · 10-10-2012 2:17am

I find Norris a nauseating, egotistical prat. Of course he's selling a book. Will he mention those less than transparent things that he was involved in. I'm glad the people of Ireland told him where to go in his bid for the Presidency.
On his side though ......... it would be easier to read his book than to have to listen to him reading it in that nonsensical accent of his.
Not sure if this is a result of foreign bodies affecting his vocal chords

Hazys · 10-10-2012 2:19am

tomtherobot wrote: »

I said republicans are perceived to be more religious and if you can't see why people associate republicanism with sectarian violence that's just nuts.

And yes that's a generalization i'd probably buy into myself to a degree (in so much as i'd buy into any generalization). I just don't perceive any republican figures as very tolerant people.

True or not, what does it have to do with the topic?

Seems like slandering for the sake of it

jill_valentine · 10-10-2012 2:21am

kowloon wrote: »

I agree that it's wrong to purposely write out parts of a person's life, but to focus on someone's sex life because they're gay seems a bit like pointing the finger, saying 'this isn't normal'. I'm not sure that's a desired outcome either.

Alan Turing is a bit of a special case because he was treated horribly and prosecuted for being gay, that often gets him an extra line in texts that would only mention him.

Someone's sexuality is only relevant if it weighs in on the topic being written about. If I decided to write about some general and their campaign in whereverland, what they like to get up to in the bedroom, gay or not, is irrelevant. Unless they're banging their chief of staff...

It matters in this regard because, often, it put somebody into a politically vulnerable position that's relevant to any attempt towards interpreting their thought processes. It's not simply a matter of what they "got up to in the bedroom." It's a question of a defining trait and an accompanying lifestyle, whether they suppressed it or obliged it. Being gay or being not gay has a massive effect on the shape of a person's life and the personal interactions they have, whether they're out or not, and decisions they make and attitudes they hold are inevitably coloured by those experiences.

Very frequently, gay and bisexual historical figures fell into some counterculture company and I don't think that's coincidence. If it's important to know, for instance, what religious or cultural background somebody comes from, to cast light on their behaviour, then it's important to know also what their sexual preference was and how that sat in the context of the time.

No I don't think it's right to focus on these things, but they're part of the overall picture. Because straight is the "default", and because of the historical stigma attached, they will be buried unless somebody actively asserts them, and then you'll wind up with a story where half the pages are missing. History is, ultimately, the story of people - of individuals affecting each other, and the consequences thereof. How can you hope to start understanding those figures without such a fundamental piece of the puzzle?

Mickey H · 10-10-2012 2:26am

So Collins was apparently gay? I bet he thought the rising was fabulous too.

Sir Gallagher · 10-10-2012 4:48am

So maybe one or two of the lads liked a bit of flute now and again, that was their own business.

For a truly sexualy deviant historical Irish figure look no further than James Joyce.

To NORA

Dublin 2 December 1909
………………………….
My love for you allows me to pray to the spirit of eternal beauty and tenderness mirrored in your eyes or fling you down under me on that softy belly of yours and **** you up behind, like a hog riding a sow, glorying in the very stink and sweat that rises from your arse, glorying in the open shape of your upturned dress and white girlish drawers and in the confusion of your flushed cheeks and tangled hair. It allows me to burst into tears of pity and love at some slight word, to tremble with love for you at the sounding of some chord or cadence of music or to lie heads and tails with you feeling your fingers fondling and tickling my ballocks or stuck up in me behind and your hot lips sucking off my cock while my head is wedged in between your fat thighs, my hands clutching the round cushions of your bum and my tongue licking ravenously up your rank red cnut. I have taught you almost to swoon at the hearing of my voice singing or murmuring to your soul the passion and sorrow and mystery of life and at the same time have taught you to make filthy signs to me with your lips and tongue, to provoke me by obscene touches and noises, and even to do in my presence the most shameful and filthy act of the body. You remember the day you pulled up your clothes and let me lie under you looking up at you while you did it? Then you were ashamed even to meet my eyes.

You are mine, darling, mine! I love you. All I have written above is only a moment or two of brutal madness. The last drop of seed has hardly been squirted up your cnut before it is over and my true love for you, the love of my verses, the love of my eyes for your strange luring eyes, comes blowing over my soul like a wind of spices. My prick is still hot and stiff and quivering from the last brutal drive it has given you when a faint hymn is heard rising in tender pitiful worship of you from the dim cloisters of my heart.

Nora, my faithful darling, my seet-eyed blackguard schoolgirl, be my whore, my mistress, as much as you like (my little frigging mistress! My little ****ing whore!) you are always my beautiful wild flower of the hedges, my dark-blue rain-drenched flower.

JIM

50 Shades me bollix.

jill_valentine · 10-10-2012 5:03am

Ah Joyce. Now Joyce, there was a pervert to be proud of.

AngryHippie · 10-10-2012 6:08am

asherbassad wrote: »

George W Bush a torturer of animals War Criminal & profiteer/merchant of death/warlord/moron
Bennazir Bhutto a corrupt murderess
Dick Cheney a 5 time draft dodger and advocate of torture War Criminal and profiteer/merchant of death/warlord

So the homos and degenerates actually did a spot of fighting for what they thought was right and most took a bullet.
The world leaders, ducked that bullet.
Where are you Blair?

Agreed, it doesn't matter what their personal motivations were, their political motivations were for liberation and independence. Without the bravery and sacrifices made by Casement, Pearse & Collins I believe Ireland would be a very different place.

captainkeg · 10-10-2012 6:17am

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Pearse may not have been gay, but...

He may well have been a Paedo?! Mos Def imo, lol that poem is the most Paedo thing I've ever read. nice to know one of our main train stations is named after a Nonce, makes sense i suppose

Cavehill Red · 10-10-2012 6:41am

captainkeg wrote: »

He may well have been a Paedo?! Mos Def imo, lol that poem is the most Paedo thing I've ever read. nice to know one of our main train stations is named after a Nonce, makes sense i suppose

People don't like it when you point out the paedo qualities of Pearse. But there's a million per cent more evidence for Pearse being paedo than there is for Collins being gay.
As for Casement, yup, gay. Also a human rights hero. Someone we should definitely be rehabilitating and take pride in. He saved thousands of lives in Africa and South America.
Duffy I know little about. But it wouldn't surprise me.

captainkeg · 10-10-2012 6:46am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

People don't like it when you point out the paedo qualities of Pearse. But there's a million per cent more evidence for Pearse being paedo than there is for Collins being gay.
As for Casement, yup, gay. Also a human rights hero. Someone we should definitely be rehabilitating and take pride in. He saved thousands of lives in Africa and South America.
Duffy I know little about. But it wouldn't surprise me.

Yep, hope people dont take my post above as being Homphobic or conflating Homosexuality with Paedophilia. But fk all the evidence points to Pearse being a weirdo paedo.
Think david Norris is a bit of of prat, the 2 articles ive read on the Irish times website paint him as an egotistic pompous eejit. Dont really care where Michael Collins liked to sling his hook but even if we are to believe the testimony of a randomer from x years ago, how does that make him gay? Why does everything have to be so binary?

K-9 · 10-10-2012 7:35am

Spread wrote: »

I find Norris a nauseating, egotistical prat. Of course he's selling a book. Will he mention those less than transparent things that he was involved in. I'm glad the people of Ireland told him where to go in his bid for the Presidency.
On his side though ......... it would be easier to read his book than to have to listen to him reading it in that nonsensical accent of his.
Not sure if this is a result of foreign bodies affecting his vocal chords

Spread the love.

Cavehill Red · 10-10-2012 8:33am

captainkeg wrote: »

Yep, hope people dont take my post above as being Homphobic or conflating Homosexuality with Paedophilia. But fk all the evidence points to Pearse being a weirdo paedo.
Think david Norris is a bit of of prat, the 2 articles ive read on the Irish times website paint him as an egotistic pompous eejit. Dont really care where Michael Collins liked to sling his hook but even if we are to believe the testimony of a randomer from x years ago, how does that make him gay? Why does everything have to be so binary?

In living memory people in this country were housed with umpteen kids sharing beds due to lack of space. It didn't mean they were riding! And Collins was on the run a lot of the time. I've no doubt he spent plenty of nights in safe houses sharing a bed with a bloke. But I doubt they were riding.
Norris, in person, is a very pleasant and charismatic chap, and he did do a lot for gay rights and human rights in his time, and he was indeed shafted by the media during the presidential election, and I support his right to publish a book to put his side of that story out there.
But claiming Michael Collins was gay to gain headlines and sales is indeed pretty facile of him.

Madam_X · 10-10-2012 9:00am

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

So maybe one or two of the lads liked a bit of flute now and again, that was their own business.

For a truly sexualy deviant historical Irish figure look no further than James Joyce.

50 Shades me bollix.

:eek:
Yaysus!

D-FENS · 10-10-2012 9:11am

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

For a truly sexualy deviant historical Irish figure look no further than James Joyce.

You're right, he's f*cking my sister

Fratton Fred · 10-10-2012 9:11am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

People don't like it when you point out the paedo qualities of Pearse. But there's a million per cent more evidence for Pearse being paedo than there is for Collins being gay.
As for Casement, yup, gay. Also a human rights hero. Someone we should definitely be rehabilitating and take pride in. He saved thousands of lives in Africa and South America.
Duffy I know little about. But it wouldn't surprise me.

There are some doubts about his revelations in South America though I believe. His "Black Diaries", if true, would indicate that a lot of the abuse he witnessed there ws more sexual fantasy then reality.

fascinating character Casement, it always surprises me that he isn't held in the same light as the likes of Pearse, but I would suspect that his sexual orientation plays a part in that. We can't have good old Catholic schools teaching about a gay hero can we.

Cavehill Red · 10-10-2012 9:19am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There are some doubts about his revelations in South America though I believe. His "Black Diaries", if true, would indicate that a lot of the abuse he witnessed there ws more sexual fantasy then reality.

fascinating character Casement, it always surprises me that he isn't held in the same light as the likes of Pearse, but I would suspect that his sexual orientation plays a part in that. We can't have good old Catholic schools teaching about a gay hero can we.

The really strange thing about that comparison is how Pearse is still lauded, despite the significant question marks over his attitudes towards young boys, while Casement is largely vilified simply for being gay, albeit there was some underage activity there too.
Leaving the sexual shenanigans to one side, if you remove your green-tinted spectacles and look at the world beyond Ireland, there is no comparison as to which was the bigger man or more important person in world history.

OurLadyofKnock · 10-10-2012 11:09am

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Shure aren't we all bisexual

I heard you poor wife dosen't know which way to turn.

kowloon · 10-10-2012 11:20am

jill_valentine wrote: »

No I don't think it's right to focus on these things, but they're part of the overall picture. Because straight is the "default", and because of the historical stigma attached, they will be buried unless somebody actively asserts them, and then you'll wind up with a story where half the pages are missing. History is, ultimately, the story of people - of individuals affecting each other, and the consequences thereof. How can you hope to start understanding those figures without such a fundamental piece of the puzzle?

I suppose what I was trying to point out was that if it wasn't a cause for incident then, it shouldn't be an important thing to state now, but of course, you're correct: the stigma attached to it would have affected someone, even if they hadn't been outed at the time.

I still wouldn't consider it something worth mentioning in anything other than an account of a person, as opposed to their deeds, if it wasn't cause for anything that could be proven to have an effect on the subject matter. Does being gay make you approach code breaking differently? For example.

steddyeddy · 10-10-2012 11:20am

A gay republican. That explains why the unionists didnt like him.

geeky · 10-10-2012 11:25am

tomtherobot wrote: »

I found myself leafing through yesterdays Irish Times (it's pretty ****e i know) and found an excerpt from David Norris book, he's talking about the gay right movement in Ireland and goes on to strongly suggest that Roger Casement, Padraig Pearse, Michael Collins and Eoin O'Duffy were gay.

Now personally I don't have a homophobic bone in my body (stop) but isn't it a bit weird outing people like this when there dead? Also, I'd love to know what the republicans here think of this?

I know its been widely suggested before that Roger Casement was gay but the other three came as a bit of a shock to me. For one thing i want me money back from the Liam Neeson/Julia Roberts movie. Damn you Hollywood lies....

I think it's a bit weird, alright, and quite unfair. Collins' sexuality is his own business, same with O'Duffy, Pearse et al.

Casemount, most historians agree, was gay or at least bisexual. Not sure about O'Duffy. With Pearse, people base their assumptions on poetry that would have the Daily Mail/Paedo-hunters mobbing up outside St Endas. but yeah, the Collins rumour is bizarre, and very thin - first I've heard of it.

Seems Michael Collins and Padraig Pearse were gay?

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