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Seems Michael Collins and Padraig Pearse were gay?

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    #62
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    TeddyTedson wrote: »
    He may have been engaged, but it wasn't that long ago when Freddie Mercury was married to a woman either.

    Freddie Mercury was never married to a woman.


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    #63
    Pottler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Pottler


    Maxim Cool Respirator wrote: »
    Freddie Mercury was never married to a woman.
    Why, was he gay?:D


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    #64
    RoundyMooney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭RoundyMooney


    Pearse may not have been gay, but...
    P&#225 wrote: »

    Little lad of the tricks,
    Full well I know
    That you have been in mischief:
    Confess your fault truly.

    I forgive you, child
    Of the soft red mouth:
    I will not condemn anyone
    For a sin not understood.

    Raise your comely head
    Till I kiss your mouth:
    If either of us is the better of that
    I am the better of it.

    There is a fragrance in your kiss
    That I have not found yet
    In the kisses of women
    Or in the honey of their bodies.

    Lad of the grey eyes,
    That flush in thy cheek
    Would be white with dread of me
    Could you read my secrets.

    He who has my secrets
    Is not fit to touch you:
    Is not that a pitiful thing,
    Little lad of the tricks ?


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    #65
    RoundyMooney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭RoundyMooney


    Pottler wrote: »
    Why, was he gay?:D

    Freddie Mercury, gay?

    Certainly not! Have you taken leave of your senses, sir?


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    #66
    Piece of Bread.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5 ✭Piece of Bread.


    Irish Republicanism is famous for gay people being infested in their ranks.


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    #67
    Pottler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Pottler


    RoundyMooney wrote: »
    Freddie Mercury, gay?

    Certainly not! Have you taken leave of your senses, sir?
    Sorry, I just heard some rumours about him on an internet forum. Must have been BS:D


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    #68
    nice1franko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭nice1franko


    An Coilean wrote: »
    There have been Various claims made about Pearse, very little evidence for them bar some poetry he wrote. Casement was almost definatly Gay, As for Collins, It seems very unlikely, have not seen any evidence for it, this is the first time I have even heard it rumored....

    Agree with this and also with Wes when he says "what does it matter?".

    That said, fpr Norris to suggest Collins was gay on the basis that some elderly man who visited him (Norris) claimed that he was Collins' boyfriend seems a bit.. unsubstantiated. I mean, an oulfella could call into Norris and claim he was mine - or Elvis', for that matter - boyfriend and it'd have the same credibility.


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    #69
    tomtherobot
    Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭tomtherobot


    Piece of Bread. wrote: »
    Irish Republicanism is famous for gay people being infested in their ranks.

    That's either blatent trolling or one of the funniest things i've seen on here


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    #70
    Piece of Bread.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5 ✭Piece of Bread.


    tomtherobot wrote: »
    That's either blatent trolling or one of the funniest things i've seen on here
    Nope. The evidence is clear with the way they go on and also the evidence of homosexual behaviour of some of the most famous Irish Republicans.


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    #71
    Pottler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Pottler


    Piece of Bread. wrote: »
    Irish Republicanism is famous for gay people being infested in their ranks.
    Them bedlice are a scourge, tbf.


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    #72
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    RoundyMooney wrote: »
    Pearse may not have been gay, but...


    The problem with basing a claim of homosexuality on that is that perceptions of what is 'gay' change vastly over time.

    Our perceptions of what is 'Gay' is very much a product of a Victorian obsession with sexauality and trying to define what was normal and marganilise everything else.
    In 17th centuary Britain it was very common for your average joe soap to walk down the street holding hands with his male freinds.
    Men kissing other men on the cheak is a very common custom elsewhere in Europe.
    I agree that the content of the poem may seem suggestive, but that is when viewing it from our perspective, in 1910 it may not have appeared so.


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    #73
    Pottler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Pottler


    An Coilean wrote: »
    The problem with basing a claim of homosexuality on that is that perceptions of what is 'gay' change vastly over time.

    Our perceptions of what is 'Gay' is very much a product of a Victorian obsession with sexauality and trying to define what was normal and marganilise everything else.
    In 17th centuary Britain it was very common for your average joe soap to walk down the street holding hands with his male freinds.
    Men kissing other men on the cheak is a very common custom elsewhere in Europe.
    I agree that the content of the poem may seem suggestive, but that is when viewing it from our perspective, in 1910 it may not have appeared so.
    Just as well hindsight is, famously, 20:20.


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    #74
    RoundyMooney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭RoundyMooney


    Oh no, I wasn't suggesting he was gay at all, and nor, in my view, does that piece-if anything he repressed his sexual leanings, whatever they were. But, even taking into account what you rightfully highlight as a moving of the cultural norms down through the decades, that poem has a very questionable tone and direction to it.

    Especially given, that he nearly broke himself financially, setting up St. Enda's.

    I'd love to be wrong, but I've been reading that thing for years, I think it was on the curriculum when I was in school, and it's always, to me, gone way beyond the pale.
    An Coilean wrote: »
    The problem with basing a claim of homosexuality on that is that perceptions of what is 'gay' change vastly over time.

    Our perceptions of what is 'Gay' is very much a product of a Victorian obsession with sexauality and trying to define what was normal and marganilise everything else.
    In 17th centuary Britain it was very common for your average joe soap to walk down the street holding hands with his male freinds.
    Men kissing other men on the cheak is a very common custom elsewhere in Europe.
    I agree that the content of the poem may seem suggestive, but that is when viewing it from our perspective, in 1910 it may not have appeared so.


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    #75
    Rhys Essien
    Registered Users Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Rhys Essien


    David Norris - The Irish people are after forgetting about me since the Presidential Election.I know what I'll do....................................:rolleyes:


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    #76
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    RoundyMooney wrote: »
    Oh no, I wasn't suggesting he was gay at all, and nor, in my view, does that piece-if anything he repressed his sexual leanings, whatever they were. But, even taking into account what you rightfully highlight as a moving of the cultural norms down through the decades, that poem has a very questionable tone and direction to it.

    Especially given, that he nearly broke himself financially, setting up St. Enda's.

    I'd love to be wrong, but I've been reading that thing for years, I think it was on the curriculum when I was in school, and it's always, to me, gone way beyond the pale.


    I understand your point, but all too often when looking at these things we in the modern and often very oversensitised world can see a giant neon red flag, but such a thought never even occoured to people at the time.


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    #77
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    The Pearse thing was commonly known, I'd thought?

    Collins is a bit out of the blue though, not so sure about that one.

    Incidentally, establishing who was and who wasn't gay in retrospect does sort of matter, because, for a start, doing otherwise presents a completely false picture of history. People want to know where these guys were, and what they did, and what helped them think and act as they did in every other regard, and sexuality and romance is as significant a factor as any other. Pretending that it's the one part of these titanic historical figures that doesn't matter is disingenuous.

    Second of all, it matters because playing dumb about the role of homosexual people in historical narratives effectively erases it. It makes it look like homosexuality was only invented in the last hundred years, which is bollocks. Who gains from that? Not history. Not straight people, and certainly not gay people. Writing homosexuality out of our history books - which is what happens when everyone is too squeamish to mention it - makes it harder for gay people to find a home in the culture they come from, and makes it easier for bigots to dismiss and diminish their significance and contribution as a part of society in generations gone before.

    It's making bad history in bad faith and it's nonsense. You cannot tell the story of Alan Turing without speaking of his orientation, any more than you could describe him without mentioning that he liked breaking codes a bit.

    Just as Irish people are entitled to claim Irish heroes, and Catholics have their favored patron saints, and local boys can have their local GAA champions, gay people are entitled to claim their own; and by extension, their own due foothold in the national narrative.

    People who don't see why that matters have a kind of inattentional blindness, where they're so used to taking it for granted that everybody of note is straight - just like them - that they can't imagine the effect if things were different.


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    #78
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    Piece of Bread. wrote: »
    Irish Republicanism is famous for gay people being infested in their ranks.
    Piece of Bread. wrote: »
    Nope. The evidence is clear with the way they go on and also the evidence of homosexual behaviour of some of the most famous Irish Republicans.
    I think it's pretty obvious who this "new member" is. Welcome back and bye again!


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    #79
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    The Pearse thing was commonly known, I'd thought?

    Collins is a bit out of the blue though, not so sure about that one.

    Incidentally, establishing who was and who wasn't gay in retrospect does sort of matter, because, for a start, doing otherwise presents a completely false picture of history. People want to know where these guys were, and what they did, and what helped them think and act as they did in every other regard, and sexuality and romance is as significant a factor as any other. Pretending that it's the one part of these titanic historical figures that doesn't matter is disingenuous.

    Second of all, it matters because playing dumb about the role of homosexual people in historical narratives effectively erases it. It makes it look like homosexuality was only invented in the last hundred years, which is bollocks. Who gains from that? Not history. Not straight people, and certainly not gay people. Writing homosexuality out of our history books - which is what happens when everyone is too squeamish to mention it - makes it easier for bigots to dismiss and diminish their significance and contribution as a part of society, and it makes it harder for gay people to find a home in the culture they come from.

    It's making bad history in bad faith and it's nonsense. You cannot tell the story of Alan Turing without speaking of his orientation, any more than you could describe him without mentioning that he liked breaking codes a bit.

    Just as Irish people are entitled to claim Irish heroes, and Catholics have their favored patron saints, and local boys can have their local GAA champions, gay people are entitled to claim their own; and by extension, their own due foothold in the national narrative.

    People who don't see why that matters have a kind of inattentional blindness, where they're so used to taking it for granted that everybody of note is straight - just like them - that they can't imagine the effect if things were different.

    I agree, however while ignoring someones Homosexuality damaged the historical narrative, claiming all and sundry were gay on any pretext is just as damaging to it and the role of homosexuals in it.


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    #80
    RhubarbCrumble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,174 ✭✭✭RhubarbCrumble


    Pearse and Casement are pretty much public knowledge aren't they? First time I've ever heard that about Michael Collins though.


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    #81
    Ambient Occlusion
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭Ambient Occlusion


    I was under the impression that the whole Black Diaries thing about Casement was just a smear campaign done by the British at the time and that there was little evidence to support any of it, any one know about that?


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    #82
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,646 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Piece of Bread. wrote: »
    Irish Republicanism is famous for gay people being infested in their ranks.
    Piece of Bread. wrote: »
    Nope. The evidence is clear with the way they go on and also the evidence of homosexual behaviour of some of the most famous Irish Republicans.
    Hi Keith.

    Bye Keith.


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    #83
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    An Coilean wrote: »
    I agree, however while ignoring someones Homosexuality damaged the historical narrative, claiming all and sundry were gay on any pretext is just as damaging to it and the role of homosexuals in it.

    I absolutely agree.

    It matters to figure out who was or who wasn't, but doing so on flimsy pretexts just to cause a bit of a stir dilutes the weight of it. I just rankle when people make a song and dance about acting like it's of no significance or it's improper to ask, when that's clearly not the issue. It's disingenuous, and it skews the lens we're all trying to look through.

    Re: Casement, I had been under the same impression about it being a smear campaign?


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    #84
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    There was handwriting analysis done and apparently it's his script allright.


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    #85
    df1985
    Registered Users Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭df1985


    whether you're gay or a complete homophobe.....does it actually matter if they were/werent?


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    #86
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    TeddyTedson wrote: »
    My friends Dad is openly gay but only for about 15 years.
    I still think his wife must have known...everyone else did.
    Same with my friend's dad.


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    #87
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    jill_valentine wrote: »

    Re: Casement, I had been under the same impression about it being a smear campaign?


    The impression I get from what I have read on the matter is that Casement was Gay, and when the British found 'incriminating' documents to that effect they used them in a smear campaign against him.


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    #88
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    df1985 wrote: »
    whether you're gay or a complete homophobe.....does it actually matter if they were/werent?


    I would imagine yes quite a bit on both counts?


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    #89
    Augmerson
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,162 ✭✭✭Augmerson


    3ndahalfof6 wrote: »
    It is probably because he was one.

    He was from Cork. A man. And Irish.

    Perhaps all these people should be asked to comment too?


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    #90
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    I don't believe any true Irish Republican was gay, nor a true Ulster Loyalist.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #91
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    K-9 wrote: »
    I don't believe any true Irish Republican was gay, nor a true Ulster Loyalist.

    What was Sammy doing in the nip in the green fields of France i wonder?


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