Gender issues in After Hours - Your feedback requested.

flyswatter · 21-08-2012 1:07am

Super-Rush wrote: »

I don't think its that bad in After Hours these days. I'm not saying there isn't an issue there, but i don't think its as bad as you are saying it is.

Agreed, it's definitely an exaggeration.

Tombi! · 21-08-2012 1:16am

Super-Rush wrote: »

I don't think its that bad in After Hours these days. I'm not saying there isn't an issue there, but i don't think its as bad as you are saying it is.

I reckon the person that posted it is a bit of a feminist and is looking at it from a point of view of the "oppressed" kinda thing. Nothing wrong with that or anything but that's what I think about it.

I can see how someone would think it but you're right anyhows, it's not that bad.

randylonghorn · 21-08-2012 2:45am

*sigh*

And unfortunately, the dismissal of the comment on the basis that it was posted by 'a bit of a feminist' who is 'looking at it from a point of view of the "oppressed" kinda thing' goes a long way to proving you wrong and Kooli right, despite the progress which I do think has been made! >.<

Tombi! · 21-08-2012 2:52am

randylonghorn wrote: »

*sigh*

And unfortunately, the dismissal of the comment on the basis that it was posted by 'a bit of a feminist' who is 'looking at it from a point of view of the "oppressed" kinda thing' goes a long way to proving you wrong and Kooli right, despite the progress which I do think has been made! >.<

Proving me wrong? What?

Nodin · 21-08-2012 8:11am

randylonghorn wrote: »

*sigh*

And unfortunately, the dismissal of the comment on the basis that it was posted by 'a bit of a feminist' who is 'looking at it from a point of view of the "oppressed" kinda thing' goes a long way to proving you wrong and Kooli right, despite the progress which I do think has been made! >.<

Arguing from the specific to the general. To be blunt, there are no dismissals that are going to render this true.

It's very jarring to go somewhere like AH and it's literally like feminism was never invented.

Not a one.

Kooli · 21-08-2012 8:19am

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I reckon the person that posted it is a bit of a feminist and is looking at it from a point of view of the "oppressed" kinda thing. Nothing wrong with that or anything but that's what I think about it.

I can see how someone would think it but you're right anyhows, it's not that bad.

Well spotted. I actually said that specifically in my post??

And I also said that I think of feminism as the default position of normal, progressive people. It's just a belief that men and women should be treated with equal respect and given equal opportunity and no one should be discriminated against because of their gender - not exactly revoluntionary stuff.
But you seem to think of it as some reason my opinions shouldn't be taken quite so seriously? Your post was extremely dismissive. I said in my post that people who point out sexism are silenced, and dismissal is a part of that.

Someone who is a feminist (male or female) will notice sexism and misogyny a lot more easily than someone who isn't (male or female). So I'm not sure I get the idea of having a thread in feedback where we can all decide if we're 'OK' with sexism or not. And if there are enough people who don't have a problem with it, we're all going to agree that sexism isn't a big enough deal and it's cool to continue with it? Seems kind of spineless and backward.

Can you imagine doing the same thing about racism? (I know it's different, but I'm just comparing). Asking a majority white group if there is a problem with racism on the board? Then getting a majority response that the jokes are 'just banter'? And anyone who calls out racism is told 'yeah but they're just saying that because they're into civil rights, and they're looking at it from an 'oppression' point of view'. Um, yes exactly!!

So weird...

Wibbs · 21-08-2012 11:58am

randylonghorn wrote: »

*sigh*

And unfortunately, the dismissal of the comment on the basis that it was posted by 'a bit of a feminist' who is 'looking at it from a point of view of the "oppressed" kinda thing' goes a long way to proving you wrong and Kooli right, despite the progress which I do think has been made! >.<

Indeed. However that can go both ways. Micky D summed it up well earlier in the thread when he said;

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Using terms like "rape culture" and "feminazism" and all the other terms are counter productive in my opinion. It only serves for trenches to be be dug deeper, it creates a divide between posters.

It would be brilliant if we could discuss the topic without the sensational sound bites.

And for me phrases like "It's very jarring to go somewhere like AH and it's literally like feminism was never invented." are pretty close to sensationalist. Never mind highly arguable in the current After Hours forum as a whole.

Kooli · 21-08-2012 12:04pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed. However that can go both ways. Micky D summed it up well earlier in the thread when he said;
And for me phrases like "It's very jarring to go somewhere like AH and it's literally like feminism was never invented." are pretty close to sensationalist. Never mind highly arguable in the current After Hours forum as a whole.

What's wrong with the term rape culture?
Feminazi is a derogatory term for a feminist, but rape culture is a widely accepted term that is used in academic circles and isn't derogatory about anyone?

And I'm sorry people think my term was sensationalist, but I do find After Hours like a time warp when it comes to issues of gender.
Actually no I take that back, I'm not really sorry...

I don't see the point of a thread that aims to test the water and see what people's feelings are, if the aim is to argue against people's feelings.

Maybe this thread is actually supposed to be a debate where we get to the 'right answer' and reach an 'objective conclusion'?? If so, that's fine but that should have been made more clear and I wouldn't have joined in.

Nodin · 21-08-2012 12:21pm

Kooli wrote: »

..........

I don't see the point of a thread that aims to test the water and see what people's feelings are, if the aim is to argue against people's feelings.

Maybe this thread is actually supposed to be a debate where we get to the 'right answer' and reach an 'objective conclusion'?? If so, that's fine but that should have been made more clear and I wouldn't have joined in.

I'm not seeing how a subjective series of unchallenged hysterical claims would aid moderating/running a forum in any way shape or form.

Morag · 21-08-2012 12:26pm

Kooli they just don't get it and honestly don't want to be seen to be capitulating by using terms which they consider 'extremist. There are too many who will dig thier heels in, at this stage as long as it results in actions being taken which will hopefully change the culture then that I think is the best we can hope for.

There are too many who will nit pick and have knee jerk reactions to certain terms
and will spend too much time on that.

Tombi! · 21-08-2012 12:26pm

Kooli wrote: »

What's wrong with the term rape culture?
Feminazi is a derogatory term for a feminist, but rape culture is a widely accepted term that is used in academic circles and isn't derogatory about anyone?

It's not helping anyone, that's the problem. I'm talking about using a term like rape culture.

We already discussed it and it basically came down to: there isn't a rape culture in AH and it's way over-the-top to assume so.

Secondly, rape culture (generally) applies only to women and not men. Which, while there is clearly a bigger problem for women in AH, we're trying to stop sexism in general, not just for the women.

g'em · 21-08-2012 12:30pm

Nodin wrote: »

I'm not seeing how a subjective series of unchallenged hysterical claims would aid moderating/running a forum in any way shape or form.

Nodin, come on. You don't have to agree with someone's post but reducing it to hysteria? It's a lazy phrase that only serves to prove the point you're arguing against.

21-08-2012 12:35pm

Sharrow wrote: »

Kooli they just don't get it and honestly don't want to be seen to be capitulating by using terms which they consider 'extremist. ..........
There are too many who will nit pick and have knee jerk reactions to certain terms and will spend too much time on that.

The problem with using sensationalist terms is that they weaken any argument, on either side. Saying things like "it's literally as if feminism was never invented" is sensationlist and it gets people's backs up.

I say this in the exact same way I told Outlaw Pete he had lost his argument, despite, IMO, many of his points being valid.

at this stage as long as it results in actions being taken which will hopefully change the culture then that I think is the best we can hope for.

But what else is there to ask for? a change in culture is what this whole thread is about and what the is being aimed for, and that is absolutely beginning to happen.

Nodin · 21-08-2012 12:41pm

g'em wrote: »

Nodin, come on. You don't have to agree with someone's post but reducing it to hysteria? It's a lazy phrase that only serves to prove the point you're arguing against.

It's a perfectly accurate term to describe such an exaggerated claim. It's "lazy" in the sense that I often use it to describe similarily ridiculous efforts as a cursory search of my posts will show.

Are you trying to imply that me using one of my stock phrases "proves" that

It's very jarring to go somewhere like AH and it's literally like feminism was never invented.

is somehow true?

Or that it proves people listing a series of subjective feelings with no regard for the facts would be somehow helpful in running a forum?

Morag · 21-08-2012 1:34pm

Nodin are you aware of the origin of the term hysterical and the history attached to it?

Morag · 21-08-2012 1:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem with using sensationalist terms is that they weaken any argument, on either side. Saying things like "it's literally as if feminism was never invented" is sensationlist and it gets people's backs up.

It is hyperbole but people use that when they are frustrated and there are days when reading the post in AH would make me certainly despair and
feel that we have make sod all progress on how women are treated.

Deleted User wrote: »

But what else is there to ask for?

The acceptance of the moderate feminist philosophy

Deleted User wrote: »

a change in culture is what this whole thread is about and what the is being aimed for, and that is absolutely beginning to happen.

Yes it is happening but I do understand that it is hard to have these discussion when that is the way they are talked about brings up miscommunication and it is the unwillingness to allow certain terms be used
cos people can't be arse educating themselves about it is a way of shutting down the discussion.

Tombi! · 21-08-2012 1:44pm

Sharrow wrote: »

Nodin are you aware of the origin of the term hysterical and the history attached to it?

I know exactly where you going with that.
Arguments like this isn't helping.
Do you know why?

Because you're focusing on it as "protect the women". To put it bluntly: it's unfair and it's sexist towards both men and women.
You're actively trying to find fault with anything that somehow relates to putting down women and trying to force people to think AH is some place where women should fear for fear of being objectified.

It's nothing like that, there is no rape culture in AH. It's just a bunch of dicks being dicks.
Hence the thread is to find out what shouldn't be allowed.

Sharrow wrote: »

we have make sod all progress on how women are treated.
The acceptance of the moderate feminist philosophy

Stuff like that is what we're trying to avoid, completely.
It's about both genders, not just women. You cannot say "well we want sexism gone but let's focus about the women first, they're more important".

Look, being a feminist is fine, nobody has issues with that. It's an issue when you come here and try to turn the thread from "sexism in AH" to "protecting the women in AH".
I get that you think AH is worse off for women, fine. But if you ignore the problems on one side of the fence then you're not any different from the people who dismiss you as a femnazi. I'm not saying you are one or anything but the point is, you're acting the same way the men who scream "femnazi/stupid bitch/etc/" at any woman who wants equality.

Ickle Magoo · 21-08-2012 1:47pm

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I get that you think AH is worse off for women, fine. But if you ignore the problems on one side of the fence then you're not any different from the people who dismiss you as a femnazi.

Do you think there are proportionate problems?

oscarBravo · 21-08-2012 1:48pm

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

You cannot say "well we want sexism gone but let's focus about the women first, they're more important".

But maybe you can say "let's focus on the women first, because there's a much bigger problem of sexism towards women than towards men" - despite what a certain serial re-registering somebody would have you believe.

Tombi! · 21-08-2012 1:54pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Do you think there are proportionate problems?

I don't understand. Can you dumb it down or something?

oscarBravo wrote: »

But maybe you can say "let's focus on the women first, because there's a much bigger problem of sexism towards women than towards men" - despite what a certain serial re-registering somebody would have you believe.

Keyword being first. But you can't ignore that it goes on both sides of the fence. And um, what were you about re-regs for?

Ickle Magoo · 21-08-2012 1:57pm

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I don't understand. Can you dumb it down or something?

You are suggesting that it goes for both sides of the fence - I'm asking if you think it goes proportionally - 50-50, you know?

Tombi! · 21-08-2012 1:58pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You are suggesting that it goes for both sides of the fence - I'm asking if you think it goes proportionally - 50-50, you know?

Oh, right

No, of course not. But I don't think it's fair to act as it only occurs on one side.

Annasopra · 21-08-2012 1:58pm

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I don't understand. Can you dumb it down or something?

Keyword being first. But you can't ignore that it goes on both sides of the fence. And um, what were you about re-regs for?

Seriously?

Are you trying to claim that sexism against men is as big a problem as sexism against women in AH?

Tombi! · 21-08-2012 2:00pm

mango salsa wrote: »

Seriously?

Are you trying to claim that sexism against men is as big a problem as sexism against women in AH?

No? I'm just saying that if you want to deal with the issue of women being victims, fine. But you can't just go "women are more important" and leave it at that.

My name is URL · 21-08-2012 2:04pm

mango salsa wrote: »

Seriously?

Are you trying to claim that sexism against men is as big a problem as sexism against women in AH?

Is it a competition or something? Sexism is sexism.. regardless of whether it's aimed at men or women.

Why the fcuk are so many people trying to frame it as a 'them vs us' thing?

Anyway, since this thread was started, the mods have been doing a top job in cracking down on the issue when it arises. What more can people ask for? This thread is just going round in circles now.

21-08-2012 2:05pm

Sharrow wrote: »

It is hyperbole but people use that when they are frustrated and there are days when reading the post in AH would make me certainly despair and
feel that we have make sod all progress on how women are treated
The acceptance of the moderate feminist philosophy

Yes it is happening but I do understand that it is hard to have these discussion when that is the way they are talked about brings up miscommunication and it is the unwillingness to allow certain terms be used
cos people can't be arse educating themselves about it is a way of shutting down the discussion.

But the fact that it is hyperbole is what frustrates those who are attempting to add to the debate.

Unfortunately there are people out there whose minds will never be changed and who will never accept that women are equal. There is little we, as posters, can do about their own personal views,what we can do though is make sexism unacceptable on this site, which is the ultimate objective here.

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Oh, right

No, of course not. But I don't think it's fair to act as it only occurs on one side.

I fully agree that if is sexism on one side isn't tolerated, then sexism on the other should not be tolerated either. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

The issue though, is that men don't appear to feel intimidated in After Hours in the same way that women do.

Ickle Magoo · 21-08-2012 2:06pm

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Oh, right

No, of course not. But I don't think it's fair to act as it only occurs on one side.

I don't think anyone is - I think the mods are trying to tackle gender issues against female posters because they are the majority of the gender issues being experienced.

Annasopra · 21-08-2012 2:07pm

My name is URL wrote: »

Is it a competition or something? Sexism is sexism.. regardless of whether it's aimed at men or women.

Why the fcuk are so many people trying to frame it as a 'them vs us' thing?

Anyway, since this thread was started, the mods have been doing a top job in cracking down on the issue when it arises. What more can people ask for? This thread is just going round in circles now.

Sexism is generally a much much bigger problem for women than it is for men!

g'em · 21-08-2012 2:08pm

Nodin wrote: »

It's a perfectly accurate term to describe such an exaggerated claim. It's "lazy" in the sense that I often use it to describe similarily ridiculous efforts as a cursory search of my posts will show.

Are you trying to imply that me using one of my stock phrases "proves" that

It's very jarring to go somewhere like AH and it's literally like feminism was never invented.

is somehow true?

Or that it proves people listing a series of subjective feelings with no regard for the facts would be somehow helpful in running a forum?

fwiw I don't agree with what Kooli is saying. I respect her point of view though. I don't think it's conducive to the discussion to be using sensationalist terminology but the onus is on other people not to react to it. Otherwise it's a "she made me do it" defense. And calling someone hysterical for a comment like that is too far. It's yet another term that's used to put down women in an argument of which there isn't a parallel for men (but I'm open to correction). You've used it yourself, you admit that, and I will gladly go through your history to find such instances because you've just admitted that's the case. (Unless of course there's a 50:50 spread between you directing it at men vs. women, which I doubt is the case).

I'm not getting at you, I'm trying to say that without people even realising it arguments in AH get reduced to "she's just being hysterical" without even seeing it.

So Kooli's remark may be subjective, but in all honesty I think there's some fact in there too.

Tombi! · 21-08-2012 2:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I fully agree that if is sexism on one side isn't tolerated, then sexism on the other should not be tolerated either. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

The issue though, is that men don't appear to feel intimidated in After Hours in the same way that women do.

Oh that's true alright but I was just worried we would go from "stomping out sexism" to "let's not say anything that might offend women". Clearly it's a bigger problem for women but to pick and choose what gender is something I'd not like to see.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think anyone is - I think the mods are trying to tackle gender issues against female posters because they are the majority of the gender issues being experienced.

True but I was moreso speaking to Sharrow/koolio since they seem to be more fixiated on the women's problems rather than sexism in general.

Gender issues in After Hours - Your feedback requested.

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