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Blood on the hands of the Irish Criminal Justice System

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  • 09-07-2012 4:43pm
    #1
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭


    I posted this in After Hours but seeing the calibre of adjacent posts, I though I'd make a thread for discussion here
    Laminations wrote: »
    Raymond Donnan, 22, from Greenfort Crescent in Clondalkin, Dublin, faces five charges in connection with a stabbing at the Swedish House Mafia concert last Saturday night.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0709/man-charged-with-concert-stabbings-due-in-court.html

    Denied bail

    What hasn't been reported in the media, yet, is his laundry list of previous criminal convictions.

    You can start with this from when he was 20 (which says he had 22 previous convictions then)



    Another 'troubled youth' rolleyes.gif slipped through the fumbling hands of our justice system, who couldn't deal with him appropriately the first time they were presented with him, or the second, or the third.......


    Problem citizens are flagged very early on, they can be identified in schools (if they attend) and usually have very early contact with the Gardai and the courts. Special efforts should be made to rehabilitate these youths, required if necessary (and it seems it is) extended periods in prison to protect society.

    Judges seem to be fudging their responsibility to protect society from repeat offenders. They are making poor judgements and there seems to be no consequence for them. They deem it appropriate that a defendant gets bail and then that defendant commits more crimes while out on bail and there is no review of the judges decision making

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/suspects-on-bail-commit-25pc-of-recorded-crimes-1393774.html

    They make decisions about the length and appropriateness of custodial sentences (esp. in case of repeat offenders) and there is no accountability either from the judiciary or the prison service about prisoners leaving prison not one bit rehabilitated.

    Overcrowding is a huge issue for the system and needs urgent addressing so judges aren't making daft rulings

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/alarm-over-number-of-crimes-committed-by-those-out-on-bail-2218900.html
    A third of prisoners who go into Mountjoy are currently released back on to streets due to chronic overcrowding


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Comments

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    #2
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    To be honest, I agree with your overall general sentiments.

    However, I am not sure that the example you have provided is a good basis for those sentiments.

    However, I am sure there are plenty more suitable examples such as the people who get suspended sentences for serious assault or a few years for killing someone etc...or those who have been released early for whatever reason.

    I am assuming that solutions need to be kickstarted by Government - with better systems to deal with people who have not paid fines etc... (e.g. reduce their social welfare benefits or their tax credits) to deal with overcrowding issues and then introduce (long) mandatory sentences for serious crime.


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    #3
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    While there are hundreds of examples of insufficient sentences and leniency on the part of judges to serious violent crime, this case is current and I think it still supports my point.
    The 22-year-old is charged with five offences including assault causing harm, violent disorder, possession of a knife and two public order offenses

    What about attempted murder? You stab someone in the head or through vital organs and you can't really argue you were trying to tickle them. With 22 previous convictions (at least) the fella shouldn't have been at the concert, he shouldn't have been on the street.

    As well as this case being a current example, of which I'm sure there are many, I was in the area in the day and witnessed the gangs of drunk topless youths (popping pills and doing coke in public) on the way to the event. It was obvious there would be trouble. The park and surrounding areas were thrashed. There is quickly becoming an anti-social criminal class in this country that the judiciary ignore and the government have tried to hide with regeneration.


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    #4
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Laminations wrote: »
    While there are hundreds of examples of insufficient sentences and leniency on the part of judges to serious violent crime, this case is current and I think it still supports my point.
    The 22-year-old is charged with five offences including assault causing harm, violent disorder, possession of a knife and two public order offenses

    What about attempted murder? You stab someone in the head or through vital organs and you can't really argue you were trying to tickle them. With 22 previous convictions (at least) the fella shouldn't have been at the concert, he shouldn't have been on the street.

    As well as this case being a current example, of which I'm sure there are many, I was in the area in the day and witnessed the gangs of drunk topless youths (popping pills and doing coke in public) on the way to the event. It was obvious there would be trouble. The park and surrounding areas were thrashed. There is quickly becoming an anti-social criminal class in this country that the judiciary ignore and the government have tried to hide with regeneration.

    As I say, I don't disagree with your sentiments.

    There has to be a strong political will to change these things. There is no one solution. By the way, I think regeneration is part of the solution. Along with education, social inclusion, State intervention at an early stage when a child is in a negative environment. But also there needs to be a move towards zero tolerance for criminal activity. We're not there nor do I think we are ready for that yet. Political will for a holistic approach is badly needed and urgent.


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    #5
    troposphere
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 174 ✭✭troposphere


    I bet he will get less time than that guy that imported garlic without paying full tax


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    #6
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Uriel. wrote: »
    As I say, I don't disagree with your sentiments.

    There has to be a strong political will to change these things. There is no one solution. By the way, I think regeneration is part of the solution. Along with education, social inclusion, State intervention at an early stage when a child is in a negative environment. But also there needs to be a move towards zero tolerance for criminal activity. We're not there nor do I think we are ready for that yet. Political will for a holistic approach is badly needed and urgent.

    Definitely agree that regeneration should be done and believe universal access to education is hugely important but you captured my sentiments in bold.

    I see the effects of regeneration and while they are positive they paint over the people who were responsible for a lot of the trouble and grottoness of the area. Still a huge litter problem, still open drug dealing, theft and vandalism of property, no respect for the gardai, defacing new and old facilities. We need to continue with the carrots but we need a bigger stick.
    • Revisiting the range of consequences for non violent crime / non payment of fines including deductions at source.
    • A stronger focus on rehabilitation in prisons with release being contingent on engagement with the education and skills program's during ones sentence.
    • A proper multiplying effect in sentencing of repeat offenders
    • A public justification of sentence length from judges, in language the public can understand.
    • More prison space (cheap and temporary if necessary - like Tent city)
    • Earlier and stronger intervention in disfunctional families where children are being neglected and parents are not engaging, possibly based some entitlement on the behaviour of ones kids too


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    #7
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Will this lad be at another concert within the next five years.......... watch this space....


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    #8
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    Well, you have a point, and one I agree with. It's a predictable path, guys graduating to more and more serious crimes finally ending in something heinous, like raping grannies.
    It seems to me the judiciary should be raising hell if there isn't enough resources for them to do their job correctly. Instead there is silence, and a form of enforced criminality on the taxpayers instead of having a right to safe streets they paid for.
    Look at FF legacy, 20 million for that flippin farm in north dublin as the spread for the new prison. How was that ever value? It's building in failure into the system EVEN BEFORE YOU BUILD IT.
    Corruption has a price, parish politics has a price, and staying silent has a price.
    Letting scum out on the street has a price in social unrest decreased quality of life (or no life) , raised home and health insurance cost, garda and judicial resources being re-used over and over. But yeah rather than ship these people to some cheap and cheerless prison they are housed in very expensive accomadation.


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    #9
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Giving a guy two years for smashing a barrier and then owning up to it would be ridiculous OP.


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    #10
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    I believe that primary schools are uniquely placed to catch problem kids and work with them to try to prevent them from becoming a drain on every other service in the future.

    Imagine every primary school with expert services, a SNA in every classroom, 20 kids per classroom total, a school based social worker, a nutritionist to educate the children on healthy eating/lifestyle etc.

    Of course teachers would have to be rigorously vetted for performance - perhaps peer reviewed for the first 3 years or something to ensure a high level of competence.

    I truly believe wider society would reap huge benefits if such a system were implemented.


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    #11
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,796 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    I believe that primary schools are uniquely placed to catch problem kids and work with them to try to prevent them from becoming a drain on every other service in the future.

    Imagine every primary school with expert services, a SNA in every classroom, 20 kids per classroom total, a school based social worker, a nutritionist to educate the children on healthy eating/lifestyle etc.

    Of course teachers would have to be rigorously vetted for performance - perhaps peer reviewed for the first 3 years or something to ensure a high level of competence.

    I truly believe wider society would reap huge benefits if such a system were implemented.

    Even if Croke Park were shredded and teachers pay and conditions reduced, the state would probably still have to increase funding for the education system (edit: pre "Depression/Recession" public spend on education across EU as % of GDP) to covers costs of such a comprehensive welfare-state approach to education.

    Irish people already believe they pay far too much tax and do not want to shell out for this.


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    #12
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Something has to be done but what or how is difficult
    the state has massive debt so the money isn't there
    also actually tackling the problem is hard

    i think we should have zero tolerance for repeat offenders and focus on preventing youths from getting involved in crime by getting them involved in the community


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    #13
    bear_hunter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 87 ✭✭bear_hunter


    troposphere wrote: »
    I bet he will get less time than that guy that imported garlic without paying full tax

    or the woman who took pocket change off adam clayton


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    #14
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    bear_hunter wrote: »
    or the woman who took pocket change off adam clayton

    Originally Posted by troposphere viewpost.gif
    I bet he will get less time than that guy that imported garlic without paying full tax




    Between them two cases they robbed nearly ten million euro, Its funny the way some people try to play down some crimes to castigate other just as serious ones.


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    #15
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Giving a guy two years for smashing a barrier and then owning up to it would be ridiculous OP.

    I agree, also the OP does not say that the 22 previous are for road traffic offences, "The court heard he had 22 previous convictions related to "boy racing" but none for criminal damage." I assume boy racing is issues with tax, nct, insurance, licence and speeding. If we lock up everyone with "boy racer" convictions on the off chance they will do what it is alleged this guy did, then there would be no room in prison.


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    #16
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,301 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Laminations wrote: »
    Raymond Donnan, 22, from Greenfort Crescent in Clondalkin, Dublin, faces five charges in connection with a stabbing at the Swedish House Mafia concert last Saturday night.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0709/man...-in-court.html

    Denied bail

    What hasn't been reported in the media, yet, is his laundry list of previous criminal convictions.
    You can start with this from when he was 20 (which says he had 22 previous convictions then)

    And it won't be reported either.
    As he has been charged the case is now 'sub-judice', and in theory any jury (which incidentally anyone who reads this thread is now inelligible for) should know absolutely nothing about any priors.
    So any media who reported it would be in contempt of court.


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    #17
    troposphere
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 174 ✭✭troposphere


    realies wrote: »
    Originally Posted by troposphere viewpost.gif
    I bet he will get less time than that guy that imported garlic without paying full tax




    Between them two cases they robbed nearly ten million euro, Its funny the way some people try to play down some crimes to castigate other just as serious ones.

    He was in the process of paying back the money and had already paid back €900,000 of the €1.6m he tried to evade. Ireland has a very funny justice system where they seem to come down hard on nonviolent offenders.


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    #18
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Giving a guy two years for smashing a barrier and then owning up to it would be ridiculous OP.
    He got no years for it though, and he's had time to clock up 22 convictions. How many times must you be charged to get 22 convictions? How many times must you be caught before you are charged? How many crimes must you commit before you are caught?

    It's not unreasonable to suggest that for every conviction, there is on average 5 or 10 or 20 (choose a number) undetected crimes that the culprit gets away with.

    22 convictions, even for minor offences, suggests somebody with no respect at all for the law, or - by extension - the rights of others.


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    #19
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    troposphere wrote: »
    He was in the process of paying back the money and had already paid back €900,000 of the €1.6m he tried to evade. Ireland has a very funny justice system where they seem to come down hard on nonviolent offenders.


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77513906


    That topic has been done to death here already,Another Interesting read :)


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    #20
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Giving a guy two years for smashing a barrier and then owning up to it would be ridiculous OP.

    Yes 2 years may be excessive. You make it sound like a minor collision though. It was definitely a case of dangerous driving with intent to cause harm. But he got no jail time. He got probation. On top of 22 previous convictions. And these convictions were road traffic related, which makes me wonder how he was still on the road.


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    #21
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    I agree, also the OP does not say that the 22 previous are for road traffic offences, "The court heard he had 22 previous convictions related to "boy racing" but none for criminal damage." I assume boy racing is issues with tax, nct, insurance, licence and speeding. If we lock up everyone with "boy racer" convictions on the off chance they will do what it is alleged this guy did, then there would be no room in prison.


    The nature of the offences isn't the point of the thread, it's the recurrent iffending - by such a young age.

    But 22 convictions for driving offences by the age of 20 is no mean feat. While I know plenty of people with points and warnings for speeding, parking offences and general bad driving, the only people I know with convictions were caught drunk-driving. Either way I'd imagine the offences would need to be pretty serious to warrant convictions. And this road rage incident was a serious offence. I think you're naive to suggest his 22 convictions relate to tax discs or late ncts.

    It makes me wonder how a 20 year old can rack up AI many driving offences and not be out off the road by the courts or not be able to afford to drive due to insurance. Road traffic related offences is a typical area where the courts hand down impotent sentences. Breaching a driving ban is punished by another driving ban? 22 convictions at 20 is a red flag to me, the road rage incident was his 23rd conviction and he gets the probation act.

    I would hazard a guess that in the last two years he has committed more offences and breached his probation, the current charges, if proven, are definitely a breach but I doubt he'll get a lengthy sentence. He isn't even being charged with attempted murder.

    The point of the thread is to highlight, once again, how a violent crime was committed by someone who should've been dealt with by the courts on one of his many previous convictions.


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    #22
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    troposphere wrote: »
    He was in the process of paying back the money and had already paid back €900,000 of the €1.6m he tried to evade. Ireland has a very funny justice system where they seem to come down hard on nonviolent offenders.

    We need harsh penalties for white collar crime but I agree it is enraging when we don't have similarly harsh penalties for violent crime (where people can lose their life). What's also enraging is the inconsistency in the courts /DPP. Begleys sentence was harsh, Mick Wallaces prosecution (for a similar offence and larger amount which he'll never repay) is non-existent. But this is all for another thread.


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    #23
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    troposphere wrote: »
    He was in the process of paying back the money and had already paid back €900,000 of the €1.6m he tried to evade. Ireland has a very funny justice system where they seem to come down hard on nonviolent offenders.

    Don't see the point of this argument at all. He was only paying it back because he was caught out deliberately falsifying customs declarations over an extended period. It was not a voluntary disclosure nor was it an isolated one-off offence.

    If I go into my local supermarket and get caught shoplifting a bottle of vodka, should I be treated more leniently if I offer to return the one I stole last week?


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    #24
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Laminations wrote: »
    The nature of the offences isn't the point of the thread, it's the recurrent iffending - by such a young age.

    But 22 convictions for driving offences by the age of 20 is no mean feat. While I know plenty of people with points and warnings for speeding, parking offences and general bad driving, the only people I know with convictions were caught drunk-driving. Either way I'd imagine the offences would need to be pretty serious to warrant convictions. And this road rage incident was a serious offence. I think you're naive to suggest his 22 convictions relate to tax discs or late ncts.

    It makes me wonder how a 20 year old can rack up AI many driving offences and not be out off the road by the courts or not be able to afford to drive due to insurance. Road traffic related offences is a typical area where the courts hand down impotent sentences. Breaching a driving ban is punished by another driving ban? 22 convictions at 20 is a red flag to me, the road rage incident was his 23rd conviction and he gets the probation act.

    I would hazard a guess that in the last two years he has committed more offences and breached his probation, the current charges, if proven, are definitely a breach but I doubt he'll get a lengthy sentence. He isn't even being charged with attempted murder.

    The point of the thread is to highlight, once again, how a violent crime was committed by someone who should've been dealt with by the courts on one of his many previous convictions.

    It is very easy to pick up multiple driving offences, say a guy is stopped for speeding, no seat belt, non production on demand licence, non production of licence in 10 days, non production in 10 days insurance, non display of tax. While he has insurance and tax and licence he has still got 7 convictions there. Add a conviction for tinted windows and loud exhaust and no NCT in one court sitting he could get 10 convictions, which could have all happened in the one court sitting. I have even seen RTA convictions for being drunk in charge of an animal drawn vehicle.

    I have seen many a usually law abiding citizen with a few RTA convictions from the one event.


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    #25
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    It is very easy to pick up multiple driving offences, say a guy is stopped for speeding, no seat belt, non production on demand licence, non production of licence in 10 days, non production in 10 days insurance, non display of tax. While he has insurance and tax and licence he has still got 7 convictions there. Add a conviction for tinted windows and loud exhaust and no NCT in one court sitting he could get 10 convictions, which could have all happened in the one court sitting.

    Is there a difference between penalty points and a conviction? So after one such unlucky court sitting like this, you are implying that poor Ray Donnan, then went out and did it all again? You might think all of those minor but it shows to me complete disregard for the law and not learning ones lesson. How many convictions do you have to rack up to have your licence withdrawn?
    I have even seen RTA convictions for being drunk in charge of an animal drawn vehicle.

    Rightly so, I've just spent over 100 euros getting my car through the NCT because of a tear in a CV boot, and leaving the centre I see a guy sat on a plank being pulled by a horse, no tax, no insurance, no safety tests, it doesn't even have a CV boot to tear. Road worthy vehicles should apply to every road user, and being drunk on a road with a horse is pretty dangerous.
    I have seen many a usually law abiding citizen with a few RTA convictions from the one event.

    Do you want to wager that in the two years since this road rage incident, that Donnan has been law abiding? right up until he bottled and stabbed numerous people?

    22 convictions means you can't claim to be 'a usually law abiding citizen'


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    #26
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Laminations wrote: »
    Is there a difference between penalty points and a conviction? So after one such unlucky court sitting like this, you are implying that poor Ray Donnan, then went out and did it all again? You might think all of those minor but it shows to me complete disregard for the law and not learning ones lesson. How many convictions do you have to rack up to have your licence withdrawn?



    Rightly so, I've just spent over 100 euros getting my car through the NCT because of a tear in a CV boot, and leaving the centre I see a guy sat on a plank being pulled by a horse, no tax, no insurance, no safety tests, it doesn't even have a CV boot to tear. Road worthy vehicles should apply to every road user, and being drunk on a road with a horse is pretty dangerous.



    Do you want to wager that in the two years since this road rage incident, that Donnan has been law abiding? right up until he bottled and stabbed numerous people?

    22 convictions means you can't claim to be 'a usually law abiding citizen'

    I have avoided and will continue to avoid comment on a person who currently the subject of a serious criminal investigation as to comment on such matters could possible lead to serious issues.

    I have kept my comments to the OP's contention that 22 previous for RTA offences in some way should warn the criminal justice system about a person. I have pointed out that it is easy if you break the law to get multiple minor convictions for RTA offences.

    BTW in relation to any of the incidents that happened over the weekend no one has been convicted as yet.


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    #27
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    I have kept my comments to the OP's contention that 22 previous for RTA offences in some way should warn the criminal justice system about a person. I have pointed out that it is easy if you break the law multiple minor convictions for RTA offences.
    Driving without insurance, or dangerous driving are not minor issues though. And having so many convictions shows complete contempt for the courts, the rule of law, and the rights of others.


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    #28
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    I have kept my comments to the OP's contention that 22 previous for RTA offences in some way should warn the criminal justice system about a person. I have pointed out that it is easy if you break the law to get multiple minor convictions for RTA offences.

    Ok so we'll not talk about a specific case.

    So it is not alarming that a 20 yr old racks up 22 RTA convictions? Can you explain the difference between penalty points and a conviction as most people I know with driving offences never went to court and got convictions, they were dealt with through penalty points. Even with your bizarrely unlucky hypothetical case of racking up 10 convictions all in one go, you'd need to be that utterly stupid twice to make it to 22.

    And how many convictions does it take to get a ban?


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    #29
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Driving without insurance, or dangerous driving are not minor issues though. And having so many convictions shows complete contempt for the courts, the rule of law, and the rights of others.

    Can you point to your source that the convictions are for no insurance or dangerous driving.

    My post related to convictions for non production etc. if a I get stopped tonight and am asked to produce in ten days my licence and insurance but I forget, I have both but I can be convicted of 3 separate offences 1 non production on demand licence, 2 non production in 10 days licence and 3 non production of insurance in 10 days.


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    #30
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    Can you point to your source that the convictions are for no insurance or dangerous driving.

    My post related to convictions for non production etc. if a I get stopped tonight and am asked to produce in ten days my licence and insurance but I forget, I have both but I can be convicted of 3 separate offences 1 non production on demand licence, 2 non production in 10 days licence and 3 non production of insurance in 10 days.
    I have as much reason to think that 'boy racer offences' refers to dangerous driving as you do to believe it relates to not producing a licence. I'm not demanding you provide evidence for your speculation, but for some reason you feel you should demand it of me? :confused:


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    #31
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Driving from 17 at the earliest, penalty points stay on your licence for 3 years. With 22 convictions for 'boy racer' offences (a description I imagine his solicitor gave to downplay their seriousness) he should have been banned.

    From your hypothetical

    guy is stopped for speeding, 2-4 points
    no seat belt, 4 penalty points
    non production on demand licence,
    non production of licence in 10 days,
    non production in 10 days insurance, 5 penalty points
    non display of tax.
    conviction for tinted windows
    loud exhaust
    no NCT 5 penalty points

    source

    So just those ones rack up 18 points (automatic ban at 12 points) - how was he driving at the time of the road rage incident? what was the consequence of this incident for his licence?

    Are you arguing that breaches of driving bans are not dealt with by a further driving ban? essentially the judge saying 'we'll try this again'


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