A dublin orange parade?

K-9 · 05-07-2012 10:46pm

getzls wrote: »

No, not a move to expel. Just an inquiry.

What's there to inquire about?

doopa · 05-07-2012 11:04pm

K-9 wrote: »

What's there to inquire about?

You can see how people get confused when that bastion of anti-Orangism the BBC has headlines like:
Orangeman: 'Expel Tom Elliott over Ronan Kerr funeral'

And lines like this in the text:
"However, we were greatly dismayed to see some members of the Orange Order and so-called evangelical Protestants attend his funeral Mass, which is explicity forbidden in the rules of our institution."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-13064956

But of course it isn't explicity forbidden since it would have been political suicide for it to have been so. Expelling known loyalist paramilitaries have similarly proved to be difficult.

woodoo · 05-07-2012 11:11pm

K-9 wrote: »

Wasn't there an Orange Order move to expel the UUP leader for attending the funeral of Ronan Kerr, the PSNI officer?

That was the sandy row lodge. Just shows how dark their hearts are when they would object to members attending the funeral of a NI police officer because he was a catholic. It wasn't very christian of them. Makes a mockery of Nelsons claim that it was a religious organisation and not a political one.

christmas2012 · 05-07-2012 11:27pm

getzls wrote: »

Who do you think would riot? Not the Orange Lodge members. Riot provoking eh? Would this be similar to a man hitting a woman then saying she made me do it?

The orange men will try their very best to actively provoke a riot,(granted there will be a lot of our own scummers out in force,this is precisely why we should not allow the march)they want to cause damage and cost,its something of a recreating for the young apprentice boys,its kinda like football hooliganism,and the whole culture that goes with it..

poeticseraphim · 05-07-2012 11:31pm

chalkitdown wrote: »

I don't have any names. The republican ideals that were originally fought for were never represented after Dev got to power. The Irish National school system was supposed to be non sectarian and inclusive.

I feel you on the School front.....i know many parents feel treated differently and have difficulties dealing with the Christian and Catholic ideology. These shoold are still owned by the church though as i understand it. They should have been handed over to the state.

I have friends who feel the church pushes it on to their children even when they are explicitly asked not to..not just protestants but athiests and secularists Jews Muslims etc.

There are now options available such as the educate together movement.

To be honest these are private organisations church, orange order etc it is time they bow to secularism.

As regards refusing to allow people march because the behaved horribly over a funeral ..well unfortuantely there is no law against being an ass.

As a non christian ....i think religion is too involved in state affairs ....abortion etc .....it is never realy about inclusivness for these organisations and secularism....it is including THEM and them trying to get power and influence ..it's never promotion of secularism and including all..merely THEIR rights and traditions...

Catholics and orangemen tout a fair society when it suits...but really to someone on neither side it seems they don't support a separation of church and state at all. Not on issues like Gay marriage etc...would the orange order support the rights of the Gay community to march and support the rights of Pride etc ??

chalkitdown · 05-07-2012 11:47pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

I feel you on the School front.....i know many parents feel treated differently and have difficulties dealing with the Christian and Catholic ideology. These shoold are still owned by the church though as i understand it. They should have been handed over to the state.

I have friends who feel the church pushes it on to their children even when they are explicitly asked not to..not just protestants but athiests and secularists Jews Muslims etc.

There are now options available such as the educate together movement.

To be honest these are private organisations church, orange order etc it is time they bow to secularism.

As regards refusing to allow people march because the behaved horribly over a funeral ..well unfortuantely there is no law against being an ass.

As a non christian ....i think religion is too involved in state affairs ....abortion etc .....it is never realy about inclusivness for these organisations and secularism....it is including THEM and them trying to get power and influence ..it's never promotion of secularism and including all..merely THEIR rights and traditions...

Catholics and orangemen tout a fair society when it suits...but really to someone on neither side it seems they don't support a separation of church and state at all. Not on issues like Gay marriage etc...would the orange order support the rights of the Gay community to march and support the rights of Pride etc ??

Well put, pity they can't keep up with society.

getzls · 05-07-2012 11:51pm

christmas2012 wrote: »

The orange men will try their very best to actively provoke a riot,(granted there will be a lot of our own scummers out in force,this is precisely why we should not allow the march)they want to cause damage and cost,its something of a recreating for the young apprentice boys,its kinda like football hooliganism,and the whole culture that goes with it..

What a load of old men mostly. Will the 90 year old ones being driven in the cars be throwing things out the window? Where will the all singing inclusiveness be in the brave new Ireland for Unionists? None! No wonder we don't want any part of it.

junder · 05-07-2012 11:53pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

chalkitdown wrote: »

I don't have any names. The republican ideals that were originally fought for were never represented after Dev got to power. The Irish National school system was supposed to be non sectarian and inclusive.

I feel you on the School front.....i know many parents feel treated differently and have difficulties dealing with the Christian and Catholic ideology. These shoold are still owned by the church though as i understand it. They should have been handed over to the state.

I have friends who feel the church pushes it on to their children even when they are explicitly asked not to..not just protestants but athiests and secularists Jews Muslims etc.

There are now options available such as the educate together movement.

To be honest these are private organisations church, orange order etc it is time they bow to secularism.

As regards refusing to allow people march because the behaved horribly over a funeral ..well unfortuantely there is no law against being an ass.

As a non christian ....i think religion is too involved in state affairs ....abortion etc .....it is never realy about inclusivness for these organisations and secularism....it is including THEM and them trying to get power and influence ..it's never promotion of secularism and including all..merely THEIR rights and traditions...

Catholics and orangemen tout a fair society when it suits...but really to someone on neither side it seems they don't support a separation of church and state at all. Not on issues like Gay marriage etc...would the orange order support the rights of the Gay community to march and support the rights of Pride etc ??

I am not an orange man but I am in a flute band and the apprentice boys, personnly have no issues with gay pride parades we have one every year in Belfast, not my cup of tea so do not attend but that's my choice. Not sectarian, racist, homophobic in fact rather ironically I am one of the few posters on this thread that isn't being a bigot. Are orange order perfect, for from it, is there room for improvement, of course there is, is every orange man a raging bigot , of course not.

K-9 · 05-07-2012 11:57pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

As regards refusing to allow people march because the behaved horribly over a funeral ..well unfortuantely there is no law against being an ass.

Fair point and I don't think anything came of it.

As a non christian ....i think religion is too involved in state affairs ....abortion etc .....it is never realy about inclusivness for these organisations and secularism....it is including THEM and them trying to get power and influence ..it's never promotion of secularism and including all..merely THEIR rights and traditions...

Catholics and orangemen tout a fair society when it suits...but really to someone on neither side it seems they don't support a separation of church and state at all. Not on issues like Gay marriage etc...would the orange order support the rights of the Gay community to march and support the rights of Pride etc ??

Indeed the GAA would come in for criticism as sectarian but even it has moved on and allows PSNI and British Army officers to field teams. I wouldn't be comfortable with Opus Dei wanting to march down O'Connell Street either, even if it was named in honour of the leader of the Catholic Emancipation movement! I'm hardly going to welcome a group that discriminates against Catholics either.

dlofnep · 06-07-2012 12:12am

junder wrote: »

Again, you speak for unionism?

I'm not speaking for Unionism. I'm making a statement of fact. The Orange Order does not speak on behalf of the Unionist population. The majority of Unionists couldn't give a monkeys about it. It's membership has dwindled over the years. Most Unionists just want to get on with their life, like anybody else. The only difference is they want to do it as part of the union.

You're insulting the Unionist population by claiming that the Orange Order speaks on their behalf. It's just simply incorrect.

charlemont · 06-07-2012 12:19am

If they want to march let them march, As much as I personally disagree with Orange ideology I still think they should be able to march, There's no point in wanting a Reunited Ireland if we can't tolerate other traditions, A third of the flag is Orange for a reason.

But unfortunately I can picture more trouble if a parade happens on O'Connell St, It would probably be used as an excuse for causing trouble rather than anything well organised.

poeticseraphim · 06-07-2012 12:39am

junder wrote: »

I am not an orange man but I am in a flute band and the apprentice boys, personnly have no issues with gay pride parades we have one every year in Belfast, not my cup of tea so do not attend but that's my choice. Not sectarian, racist, homophobic in fact rather ironically I am one of the few posters on this thread that isn't being a bigot. Are orange order perfect, for from it, is there room for improvement, of course there is, is every orange man a raging bigot , of course not.

Glad to see such opinions:)....i was not suggesting every orange man is a bigot or that every catholic is one....but the INSTITUTIONS themselves of the Roman Catholic church and the orange order are from an outsiders point of view ..not just to each other but to other sections of society.

The best way to defend your own rights is to defend the rights of all. Some of the actions of both communities seem not to defend the rights of all but of their own ideologies.

I don't want to paint anyone with the same brush.

Some individuals have acted badly on both sides and to be honest i see protectionism and discrimmination on both sides not just to each other but many.

It is great you see attitudes like yours.

I actually think shifting the debate from the catholic/orange /unionist paradigm to a broader discussion for the rights of all in Ireland and how institutions treat all is an approach that is more relevant for today.

And that approach also takes the heat off the old silly Nationalist /Unionist thing by making it a wider question and challenging BOTH communities and the wider society about how groups and individuals are treated in civil life and by organisations.To fight bigotry you have to fight it accross the board...unfortunately not all attitudes are as yours in the RC orange order and indeed in civil life and other communities.

You are right the Orange order may have it's discrimmination as an order as the Catholic church as an intitution is extremely sexist and bigoted..but not every orangeman or catholic priest is a bigot...but it is sometimes difficult to then understand why they are a member of such organisations. But i in know way want make blanket assumptions. One can change institutions from the inside it's true.

Another question...how do the Orange women feel about all this??? And the female priests .....oh wait....dang.....are there any orange feminists male or female??

And are there minorities in the orange order ?? Like protestants of other ethnicities ???? I know the freemasons have other ethnicities. Still no women..not that we are fighting to join any of these organisations i suppose.

I really do not think all orange men are alike or all priests ...it just sometimes seems like two victorian white men's clubs sometimes, who only think discrimination happens to them. When infact they are possibly the least discriminated against. Groups like those with disabilities , women Gays , other ethnicities face it it also in a very real way.

..

SMASH THE UNIONS · 06-07-2012 12:43am

Irish citizens from the Republic want to parade through their capital and I think they should be permitted. If there was an Irish Nazi group and they wanted to do likewise I should hope we are mature and reasonable enough to allow them exercise their rights.

I may not agree with what they stand for but whats the point of a Republic if certain sections of society aren't permitted to exercise their rights as citizens provided they are not breaking the law.

Have certain conditions in place, no paramilitary flags or banners etc and allow them march.

At some point in time we are going to have to move forward. Why not now?

TOMASJ · 06-07-2012 12:49am

junder wrote: »

A leading orange man recently spoke in your dail about improving relations with not only the wider unionist community but also residents of your own country that counted themselves as part of the orange community, his suggestion was allowing the local Dublin and Wicklow orange lodge being allowed to parade in thier capital city Dublin without fear of intimidation and violence which thus far as prevented them parading.

That sounds like a good idea,
would these Irish orange men be proud and confident enough carry the flag of their country namely the Irish tricolor, "after all it includes their favourite colour" or a foreign flag
and would there be orange arches across the streets of whatever town, for the natives to bow under whatever drivel was painted on that

SMASH THE UNIONS · 06-07-2012 12:55am

TOMASJ wrote: »

That sounds like a good idea,
would these Irish orange men be proud and confident enough carry the flag of their country namely the Irish tricolor, "after all it includes their favourite colour" or a foreign flag
and would there be orange arches across the streets of whatever town, for the natives to bow under whatever drivel was painted on that

The Orangemen are native too.

poeticseraphim · 06-07-2012 1:05am

K-9 wrote: »

Fair point and I don't think anything came of it.

Indeed the GAA would come in for criticism as sectarian but even it has moved on and allows PSNI and British Army officers to field teams. I wouldn't be comfortable with Opus Dei wanting to march down O'Connell Street either, even if it was named in honour of the leader of the Catholic Emancipation movement! I'm hardly going to welcome a group that discriminates against Catholics either.

Exactly...infact it is embarrassing that croke park allowing football was even news to be honest.To be honest i have given up hope on RC institutions in general.....they are centuries behind.

I do think this raises issues on civil rights FOR ALL in Ireland and perhaps that approach would take some heat out of the debate. It could really be hepful to widen the discussion to how these institutions treat the rights of women, homosexuals and minorities. I actually find it unacceptable howthe church handles sex ed for examlpe when it has such a monoploly on schools and it's thoughts on women and women's rights.

If we held a lot of these groups to more inclusive standards it might break down the nationalist/unionist barrier ..which really can only be dealt with by challenging all discrimination and protectionism.

K-9 · 06-07-2012 1:07am

SMASH THE UNIONS wrote: »

Have certain conditions in place, no paramilitary flags or banners etc and allow them march.

What paramilitary flag or banners would these be?

I'd think about these flags and banners or we could end up with a bunch of men marching with no drums, banners or sashes!

poeticseraphim · 06-07-2012 1:09am

Ok i don't want to be stoned..but well...I am a proud Irish Gal..but what is to be said for maybe making Irish a choice subject in schools??

You could still support the language ..but not inforce it??? Or would that just cause more agro???

I mean i am Irish and support Irish culture totally..but i don't want force it on anyone.

Would it set off too much trouble??

K-9 · 06-07-2012 1:16am

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Exactly...infact it is embarrassing that croke park allowing football was even news to be honest.To be honest i have given up hope on RC institutions in general.....they are centuries behind.

I do think this raises issues on civil rights FOR ALL in Ireland and perhaps that approach would take some heat out of the debate. It could really be hepful to widen the discussion to how these institutions treat the rights of women, homosexuals and minorities. I actually find it unacceptable howthe church handles sex ed for examlpe when it has such a monoploly on schools and it's thoughts on women and women's rights.

If we held a lot of these groups to more inclusive standards it might break down the nationalist/unionist barrier ..which really can only be dealt with by challenging all discrimination and protectionism.

The GAA is infuriatingly slow in moving with the times but they have made moves under pressure. The Orange Order making one or 2 changes would help in the build up to it, acknowledging changing the rules so that it is not wrong to attend a Catholic funeral would be a start.

My Freemasons example was poor, they wouldn't want to march after all

I don't see why the Orange Order should get a right to march without some recognition of how this state has moved on. I live in an area that has a trouble free 12th march but it's a tradition at this stage, marching down O'Connell Street is a different thing.

K-9 · 06-07-2012 1:20am

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Ok i don't want to be stoned..but well...I am a proud Irish Gal..but what is to be said for maybe making Irish a choice subject in schools??

You could still support the language ..but not inforce it??? Or would that just cause more agro???

I mean i am Irish and support Irish culture totally..but i don't want force it on anyone.

Would it set off too much trouble??

FG proposed something similar but mod brain on, that point is going off topic.

poeticseraphim · 06-07-2012 1:22am

K-9 wrote: »

What paramilitary flag or banners would these be?

I'd think about these flags and banners or we could end up with a bunch of men marching with no drums, banners or sashes!

Would be more of a stroll .....

Just thought of a slogan to go with this march

Orange flags over dub....'DUBLIN'S BEEN TANGOED'

Turn it into a huge party all invited ...rip this town up ..the good way...

FANTA or CLUB ORANGE could sponsor it....:D

Its a soft drink so the orange order won't mind!

Sober dry parades..............WOW....Ireland are we ready?

I think they would have to have their pagentry otherwise it is not really an Orange Order parade. It would just be a bit of a walk.

junder · 06-07-2012 12:28pm

dlofnep wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Again, you speak for unionism?

I'm not speaking for Unionism. I'm making a statement of fact. The Orange Order does not speak on behalf of the Unionist population. The majority of Unionists couldn't give a monkeys about it. It's membership has dwindled over the years. Most Unionists just want to get on with their life, like anybody else. The only difference is they want to do it as part of the union.

You're insulting the Unionist population by claiming that the Orange Order speaks on their behalf. It's just simply incorrect.

I think I am in a better position to speak for the unionist community by virtue of the fact I am actually a unionist. You are the one insulting MY community by pretending that you are in any posistion to speak for MY community. You are not a unionist, you may have spoken to some unionists, your best friend may even be a unionist but that will never give you the same insight into the unionist community so I will thank you not to lecture me on MY community.
So the orange lodge is not important to the unionist community then, so next week there will be nobody watching the 12th, there will hardly be any parades at all across northern Ireland

raymon · 06-07-2012 3:37pm

junder wrote: »

I think I am in a better position to speak for the unionist community by virtue of the fact I am actually a unionist. You are the one insulting MY community by pretending that you are in any posistion to speak for MY community. You are not a unionist, you may have spoken to some unionists, your best friend may even be a unionist but that will never give you the same insight into the unionist community so I will thank you not to lecture me on MY community.
So the orange lodge is not important to the unionist community then, so next week there will be nobody watching the 12th, there will hardly be any parades at all across northern Ireland

I would not like to see your orange order marching in my community.

Not because you are protestant ,unionist or British. I have many friends who are all three.

I would not like to see any sectarian group marching in Dublin.

My community consists of people of all religions.

golden lane · 06-07-2012 3:42pm

this is not the time for the orange order to march through dublin.......

it will take a long time for that to be acceptable.

TOMASJ · 06-07-2012 3:48pm

SMASH THE UNIONS wrote: »

The Orangemen are native too.

Yes they sure are, so will they carry our NATIVE flag, or some foreign one

dlofnep · 06-07-2012 4:46pm

junder wrote: »

I think I am in a better position to speak for the unionist community by virtue of the fact I am actually a unionist.

But you're not simply a Unionist. You're a loyalist, a drum-beating loyalist. You're making the claim that the Orange Order is a fundamental aspect of Unionist culture that speaks on behalf of Unionists. I put it to you that it isn't and doesn't.

junder wrote: »

You are the one insulting MY community by pretending that you are in any posistion to speak for MY community.

I have never once spoken on behalf of your community. Nor have I insulted your community. I made a factual claim that the Order Order does not speak on behalf of Unionists. It may be the voice of a small contingent within the Unionist community, but it does not speak on behalf of the community as a whole.

junder wrote: »

So the orange lodge is not important to the unionist community then, so next week there will be nobody watching the 12th, there will hardly be any parades at all across northern Ireland

You're creating a strawman. I at no point stated that it wasn't important to some elements of the Unionist community. What I stated was that it does not speak on behalf of the Unionist community, nor is it required for someone to be a Unionist to buy into all of their nonsense.

The Orange Order is a organisation built on bigotry, hatred and misinformation. If that's the image you want to project for the Unionist community, go for it - But I know many Unionists who are better than that.

junder · 06-07-2012 5:19pm

dlofnep wrote: »

junder wrote: »

I think I am in a better position to speak for the unionist community by virtue of the fact I am actually a unionist.

But you're not simply a Unionist. You're a loyalist, a drum-beating loyalist. You're making the claim that the Orange Order is a fundamental aspect of Unionist culture that speaks on behalf of Unionists. I put it to you that it isn't and doesn't.

junder wrote: »

You are the one insulting MY community by pretending that you are in any posistion to speak for MY community.

I have never once spoken on behalf of your community. Nor have I insulted your community. I made a factual claim that the Order Order does not speak on behalf of Unionists. It may be the voice of a small contingent within the Unionist community, but it does not speak on behalf of the community as a whole.

junder wrote: »

So the orange lodge is not important to the unionist community then, so next week there will be nobody watching the 12th, there will hardly be any parades at all across northern Ireland

You're creating a strawman. I at no point stated that it wasn't important to some elements of the Unionist community. What I stated was that it does not speak on behalf of the Unionist community, nor is it required for someone to be a Unionist to buy into all of their nonsense.

The Orange Order is a organisation built on bigotry, hatred and misinformation. If that's the image you want to project for the Unionist community, go for it - But I know many Unionists who are better than that.

Don't play the drum so no I am not a drum beating loyalist, although what my music ability has to do with anything I don't know. Furthermore at no point have I said the loyal orders speak for unionism only that they are an important part of the unionists culture. You on the other hand have taken the perverse posistion that you somehow know the unionist community better then me who is an actual unionist, even going as far as accusing me of insulting then unionist and by defernition myself. It is you that is creating straw man arguments by virtues of the fact you are not a unionist so cannot know the nuances of that community no matter how many unionsist you speak to. You claim the orange order is not important and yet next week there will be 100'000s of people across the uk taking part or watching orange parades. Two weeks ago i paraded with my band in London alongside 15000 orange men, women and bands including one from donegal. It is estimates that there was another 10'000 people watching the parade in London. And still you try and claim its not important.
But here is the thing, I welcome your attuitude, you are exactly the sort of republican I like to come across, because when ever I hear the argument that my culture will be respected in a united Ireland I just have to point to you. You make my argument of why I/we never want to be part of a united Ireland

tayto lover · 06-07-2012 5:31pm

junder wrote: »

Don't play the drum so no I am not a drum beating loyalist, although what my music ability has to do with anything I don't know. Furthermore at no point have I said the loyal orders speak for unionism only that they are an important part of the unionists culture. You on the other hand have taken the perverse posistion that you somehow know the unionist community better then me who is an actual unionist, even going as far as accusing me of insulting then unionist and by defernition myself. It is you that is creating straw man arguments by virtues of the fact you are not a unionist so cannot know the nuances of that community no matter how many unionsist you speak to. You claim the orange order is not important and yet next week there will be 100'000s of people across the uk taking part or watching orange parades. Two weeks ago i paraded with my band in London alongside 15000 orange men, women and bands including one from donegal. It is estimates that there was another 10'000 people watching the parade in London. And still you try and claim its not important.
But here is the thing, I welcome your attuitude, you are exactly the sort of republican I like to come across, because when ever I hear the argument that my culture will be respected in a united Ireland I just have to point to you. You make my argument of why I/we never want to be part of a united Ireland

So your whole point in coming on here with this thread is to get back-up for your argument and Unionist position. That's sad and you must feel the walls are closing in on you with all the progress in the North. Isolation is not good for anyone.

Broxi_Bear_Eire · 06-07-2012 5:35pm

K-9 wrote: »

Both are wrong, one seems more recent and was looking to punish a member for attending a Catholic funeral. I've a problem with sectarian policies. I'd have the same problem with the Freemasons looking to march!

As a matter of interest what sectarian policies do the Freemasons have ??

dlofnep · 06-07-2012 5:38pm

junder wrote: »

But here is the thing, I welcome your attuitude, you are exactly the sort of republican I like to come across, because when ever I hear the argument that my culture will be respected in a united Ireland I just have to point to you. You make my argument of why I/we never want to be part of a united Ireland

Yes - I am a Republican, one who has gone on record in this thread stating that I welcome a Unionist parade in Dublin, an inclusive parade to covers all aspects of Unionist culture, and not just an insignificant one built on bigotry and hatred. This is a much more balanced proposition than your suggesting of a parade which only highlights the worst aspects of Loyalist culture.

You seemed to have ignored that part, because it didn't sit well with your argument. I'm not interested in the least on whether or not you would support unification of the Ireland. This is a thread discussing a march by an openly sectarian organisation in the capital.

A dublin orange parade?

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