PARAS OR ROYAL MARINES ???

twinytwo wrote: »

Lol at you my friend... the pathfinders are a specalist recon unit.... dont get me wrong they are there to do a specific task and they are excellent at what they do.

But ......they are not special forces in any form of the word.

Man some of the people on here live in fantasy land.

Just because you quote some garbage off the internet.... dosent make it correct.

They do alot more then a specific task.

They are selected and train in the same way as green role special forces they are trained in HALO/HAHO, long range/ISTAR patrolling, SOP training, demolition, driving/mobility skills, language skills, patrol skills,SOF communications, combat medicine, survival,Fwd air controller skills etc.

.....Infact their training is beyond that of most other nations special forces units. There training is practically the same as SAS air troop.

......Are you denying this ?


In Afghanistan they are doing, Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition And Reconnaissance , which is the same as what the SAS were founded to do. Classic special Forces tasks.


You make up for your ignorance by throwing insults.

The Special Reconnasiance Regiment are a recon regiment, they are still special forces you muppet.

The Pathfinders are not regarded as special forces simply because the MOD would have to pay them special forces rates of pay.

Other nations inc France regard such units as Special Forces.

discus wrote: »

Dude, I dont know what websites you've been reading, but they're not special forces. Even the Pathfinders themselves don't regard themselves as SF - I know this cause they were trying to persuade a few of us to put 7 Para as our regiment of choice a few weeks ago, and used pathfinders as a selling point.

Can you read ? They are not regarded by the MOD as special forces, because it would mean special forces rates of pay.

Also because the SAS like to have command over all other UK SOF units.

Other nations regard HALO trained ISTAR role units as Special forces.

They are selected as, trained as and perform a special forces role in Afghanistan.

They perform as green role special forces on 6 week patrols and engage the enemy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQX8maabntQ

discus wrote: »

I'll leave you to it mate, you're obviously more in touch with things than I am.

edit: and just as a closing, during our talk, we were told by the paras that pathfinders was a springboard for those looking to go special forces. QED as far as I'm concerned.

I dont dispute that, all am saying is other nations regard such units as Special Forces.

RMD wrote: »

What other nations regard as SF is irrelevant though in this case. By other nations standards the RM AW Cadre would also be considered SF but they're not. By other nations standard yes SAS SBS SRR would be T1 and PF / AW Cadre would be T2, but the BAF only operate a 1 tier system.

That may be the case in the UK but its political and inhouse reasons not due to their role.

They are trained as green Special Forces and operate in a green role SOF role in Afghanistan.....thats a fact.

The RM mountain leader training cadre do get some special forces pay.

The reason none of them are officially classed as special forces is because the SAS like to have command over all UK SOF units and put up huge resistance to the classification of other units as special forces, which is why they insisted the Special Recon Regiment is under their command.


Lets say for example a Pathfinders patrol performing an ISTAR role was captured during a future Iranian war, they would be regarded by their captors as special forces not conventional infantry........because thats the role in combat they are peforming.

Long range patrols, target acquisition, demolition etc.

.......So its highly relevent.


The original SAS would not have been regarded Special forces according to the modern UK MOD classification system. Either would most US navy seal units or the Green berets, which shows what a nonsense it is.

twinytwo wrote: »

Do you actually read what you write???

"They are not regarded by the MOD as special forces, because it would mean special forces rates of pay."

In the UK armed services to be considered special forces one must first pass UKSF selection.... the parthfinders do not do this. Only three units do the SAS, the SBS and the SRR. Do you see pathfinders in this list?

Rates of pay??.. Are you having a laugh. The are "not regarded as SF"... because they arnt SF.

"Also because the SAS like to have command over all other UK SOF units."

By SAS i take it you mean UKSF and by that i take you mean the director of SF??

"Other nations regard HALO trained ISTAR role units as Special forces"

We are not talking about other countries, we are talking about the UK.

"They are selected as, trained as and perform a special forces role in Afghanistan."

No, no and no

You live in a warped reality....You dont know what your talking about, and the "evidence" you have is comical at best. your actually the first person to ever go on my ignore list.

You really are full of s... are you seriously saying there ISTAR/long range patrol, target acquistion and air strike role combined is not a SOF one ? they go out on 6 week long range patrols ffs.

:rolleyes: What is it ? A conventional infantry role ? Its alot more then a recon role.

They do Brecon phase 1 muppet and are trained in Special Forces skills, special forces train in HALO, demolition, target acquisition, mobilty training, combat medicine, HALO etc etc.

Are you saying the PFs are not trained in the above ???????????????????



Their selection is alot more physically demanding then the SRR and they are classed as SOF.


Are you now ISTAR long range patrolling is not a tradional special forces role ?


Avoid direct answers and just spout crap.

Jesus wept.


What do you think the Iranians would regard a captured PF patrol as muppet ?

RMD wrote: »

The SAS don't have command over any UK SOF units other than that of their own regiment. SAS, SBS AND SRR all stand on an equal footing within UKSF.

Lol, the Director Special Forces (DSF) is nearly always a former SAS brigader or colonel. He is the director of all UKSOF.

The SAS control UKSOF forces beacuse commanders of UKSF are normally former SAS commanders, hence the SBS opposition to coming under that command/control when they became the Special Boat service in 87 and moved to Hereford, nowadays even their selection is run by the SAS.

The SRR are a continum of 14 Int coy an SAS creation with SAS command.


"UKSF was formed in 1987 to draw together the Army's Special Air Service (SAS) and the Special Boat Squadron Royal Marines (SBS), which was renamed the Special Boat Service at the same time, into a unified command, based around the former Director SAS who was given the additional title of Director Special Forces. The directorate has been expanded by the creation of the Joint Special Forces Aviation Wing, the Special Reconnaissance Regiment and the Special Forces Support Group."



.......It was the SAS reward from Mrs T for the Iranian embassy siege, the Falklands and NI. The control of all UKSOF units put under the control of a former SAS director general in 87.

RMD wrote: »

By your logic then, if a former SBS brigadier / colonel became the CO of UKSF, the SBS would control the UKSF at that time. See how skewed that is of a logic?

Every UKSOF Major General bar 1 (who was regular army) has been an ex SAS commander.

The UKSOF forces directorate is overwhelmingly staffed with SAS officers, their input into who becomes Major General is an overwhelming factor.

All UKSOF operations are run from Credenhill, where the SAS are based.

You guys really dont have a clue, Pathfinders ISTAR ops in Afghanistan are in the remit of Special forces ops, PFs have done long range patrols with the SAS there. We know they are not OFFICIALLY SOF but their role often is.

Pathfinders sometimes also serve with/alongside G sqn 22 SAS in other places, rumour is also in Libya.

18] The Pathfinders, alongside the UKSF,[19] oversaw the uneasy truce and were used to establish links between the warring factions and monitor any hostile activities.Operation Essential Harvest - With the rise in ethnic tension overspilling in to violence in Republic of Macedonia between ethnic Albanian, National Liberation Army (NLA) and Macedonian security forces, the British Government sent a force to oversee a NATO-led ceasefire.[18The Pathfinders, alongside the UKSF,[19] oversaw the uneasy truce and were used to establish links between the warring factions and monitor any hostile activities


^ Berry, Jessica; Lusher, Adam (19 August 2001). "Macedonia strife threatens Nato mission". The Daily Telegraph (London). http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/macedonia/1337938/Macedonia-strife-threatens-Nato-mission.html.



The 400-strong advanced British contingent, to be in position by tonight, includes a Pathfinder platoon trained in covert reconnaissance. They will assist members of the SAS who are already in Macedonia, mapping rebel positions and assessing the weaponry available to each side.


Operation Agricola - In June 1999, the Pathfinder Platoon was deployed to Kosovo. It operated behind enemy lines providing reconnaissance and forward air control(with the SAS). Once NATO forces entered Kosovo, the Platoon provided a defensive screen around Pristina International Airport prior to the arrival of the Russian forces.[17]



Operation Telic - In Iraq, The primary mission for the teams was to conduct mobile surveillance/fighting patrols behind enemy lines in support of UK and US forces. After the hostilities, the unit were redeployed on the Iran/Iraq border as well as carrying out "snatch squad" tasks on suspected Ba'athist war criminals in Maysan (Once again with 22 SAS)



.......Are posters still claiming they have no special forces role ?..........LOL

As for twintytwo I suggest you lay off the drink.

goldie fish wrote: »

Yet another wiki cut and paste from crusader...

Other wise you would simply say I made it up.

Like you guys do, lol


I actually also posted a link to an article on a SOF operation they did alongside the SAS. Why not pretend you never noticed.

IrelandDylan wrote: »

Honestly like, Wiki is written by normal people, it's not official. Articles from newspapers are true 5% of the time. They do RECONNAISSANCE, which if you hadf even read the articles, you would of known. The SF NEED Reconnaissance Operators to do their stuff for future operations. Doesn't mean they go in and do the operations with the SAS, they help with the pre-operational reconnaissance. Please go back to COD lad.

Why are you inventing bs ?

So the Daily Telegraph made this up ?

The 400-strong advanced British contingent, to be in position by tonight, includes a Pathfinder platoon trained in covert reconnaissance. They will assist members of the SAS who are already in Macedonia, mapping rebel positions and assessing the weaponry available to each side.


.................You people really are full of .....:rolleyes:


They are now on half SF pay, this pay was sanctioned by the MoD review body as an 'advanced parachutist pay(HAPC)' to cover the HALO/HAHO role.

IrelandDylan wrote: »

As I said, ASSISTING the SAS in Reconnaissance. You're some thick lad.

......If they are out on operations serving alongside the SAS......that makes it a SOF role, muppet :rolleyes:


Is this not a SOF role ?
Operation Agricola - In June 1999, the Pathfinder Platoon was deployed to Kosovo. It operated behind enemy lines providing reconnaissance and forward air control(with the SAS). Once NATO forces entered Kosovo, the Platoon provided a defensive screen around Pristina International Airport prior to the arrival of the Russian forces.[17]



Operation Telic - In Iraq, The primary mission for the teams was to conduct mobile surveillance/fighting patrols behind enemy lines in support of UK and US forces. After the hostilities, the unit were redeployed on the Iran/Iraq border as well as carrying out "snatch squad" tasks on suspected Ba'athist war criminals in Maysan (Once again with 22 SAS)

IrelandDylan wrote: »

The pathfinders aren't a part of the SAS. Are they under the command of the UKSF like the SAS, SBS, SRR and SFSG? I think not. They are a part of the PARAs. As the above said, if they're SF, shouldn't the Royal Marines Mountain Leaders be SF too? Although their selection is much like that of UKSF, they're primary role is reconnaissance, nothing else.

On operations where the Pathfinders serve with the SAS they come under the command of UK SOF.

Pathfinders practising Special Forces SOPs 2mins 15 seconds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvile3oxAjM&feature=related

IrelandDylan wrote: »

The PARAs assisted the SAS in the rescue operation in Sierra Leone, does that make them SOF? No. The PARAs brochure says ''The PARAs have strong links to the SAS'' Does that make them SOF? No. This lad here says he's a pathfinder. Obviously, we cant confirm that, but can you tell me where he says the Pathfinders are SOF? http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080127045017AA5LEQz







Boom.

Where did anyone say they were officially Special Forces ?

But the fact is they are selected as and train as Special Forces and sometimes take part in Special Forces operations alongside the SAS, they are under SAS command when they do so. They also train with 22 SAS on various exercises.


Operation Barras was an SAS recue operation which the PFs also took part in......Ie A special Forces operation for any slow learners.



Your link back ups what I said, including the fact they do SAS Phase 1 Brecon selection.



"The training is intense and we also train with th Special Air service ( in fact about 65% of the SAS come from the Parachute regiment).

The platoon is an element of the Brigade Headquarters and based in Colchester, Essex.

The platoon is formed of a number of which can operate independently or as part of a larger forward element under a Field Headquarters headed by a Captain, supported by a Sergeant.

The teams operate in with between 4-6 men and are commanded a by senior Patrol Commander whose rank can range from Sergeant to Private ( similar to the SAS).

Phase 1 begins with the standard British Army fitness tests including Battle Fitness Test and swimming proficiency and includes the tests undertaken during P Company; '2 Miler' (3 km), '8 Miler' (13 km) and '10 Miler' (16 km) speed marches carrying SA-80 rifle and Bergen but with more demanding time objectives and at greater weight loads.

Fitness and Navigation - Individual
The Brecon Beacons
Enlarge
The Brecon Beacons

Phase 2 is similar to the hill phase of UKSF(United Kingdom Special Forces) selection; a series of long, solo marches over the Brecon Beacons, Black Mountains and Elan Valley carrying personal equipment, leading to a heavy individual load. Routes are traversed at a minimum 4 km/h, covering an average of 29 km with a 60 pound bergen and rifle.


Performance is testing with progress hampered by frequent inclement weather and poor conditions underfoot. Foot injuries and blisters are common, adding to the psychological challenge of individual performance and the loss rate at this stage in training is high.

The final challenge in this phase is a 40 mile (60 km) tab taking in all the highest peaks in the Southern Wales region.




Security and secrecy

Pathfinders, along with UKSF( United Kingdom Special Forces), avoid the glare of publicity. Due to its guarded nature, many people (including serving officers and servicemen within HM Forces) are unaware to the units true role, tasks and missions. This has subsequently led to a number of security errors wherby names and photos of operators have been leaked to the media.

Pathfinders are granted an enormous amount of flexibility and autonomy. They do not maintain any general uniformed presence and civilian clothing is the norm on or off duty. Uniforms are rarely worn, if at all, with any markings, names, or branch names on them. Hair styles and facial hair are allowed to grow to civilian standards in order for the force to be able to blend in and not be immediately recognized as military personnel."

The Pathfinders were also involved in operation Barras as part of the JRRF.


Your link states the do the Hill phase of UK Special Forces selection, also known as Brecon Phase 1


"Phase 2(Pathfinder selection) is similar to the hill phase of UKSF(United Kingdom Special Forces) selection"...It ends with the same 40 miler/long drag the SAS do on selection.......read your link.


http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080127045017AA5LEQz



So lets get this right, they do the same Tabbing distances, inc the long drag and the selection course length, also the escape and evasion part, the course takes place in the same area with the same SAS instructors......but you are claiming its not the same as the SAS hill phase only similar.LOL

IrelandDylan wrote: »

Awh jeez, we'll be here all night at this rate. Quote from the Pathfinder: Phase 2 is similar to the hill phase of UKSF(United Kingdom Special Forces) selection;

Notice: Similar.

Also, where does it ever say the Pathfinders were there?

Why dont you bother to read your link ?

So If I run 100m on an athetics track and another person runs 100m on another part of the track, this is not the same but similar ?:rolleyes:

Jesus wept

twinytwo wrote: »

Crusader777

Until you can quote something other than here say and wikipedia... ill continue to laugh at you.

Unless you are infact in UKSF???... which i highly doubt, you have no way to actually prove other than the sources mentioned above any of the tripe you are spouting.

AT the end of the day no matter how hard you try to avoid the fact.. the Pathfinders are not SF... you can spout on about halo jumping and LRP and 6 week run outs or how hard they are... it still dosent make them SF's

You mentioned that there training is harder than the SRR??... can you prove this fact??... do you know from first hand experience????

As perviously stated while the pathfinders may be a highly trained unit, they have not passed the UKSF selection and are therefore not and never will be (no matter how much you wish it) Special forces.

By your very own logic...the RMML's would be SF right??... guess what... they arnt either.

Let me ask you.... what is the primary role of the pathfinders???

As regards your iran comment... they would be regarded as foreign soldiers, armed agressors who had breached international law by setting foot in a foreign state, without the prior approval of its government, which would then be considered an act of war.

Heres the role of the Pathfinders in Iraq, behind enemy lines, in a green role SOF role, just to prove the point.





Betrayed behind enemy lines: Army captain breaks silence on elite unit's fight for survival
Only outstanding valour and luck saved British soldiers trapped by Iraq's feared Republican Guard

British soldiers were abandoned behind enemy lines after a secret mission went disastrously wrong, their commander has revealed after almost a decade of silence.

For the first time, Captain David Blakeley, 33, has spoken of how his patrol of just nine men were surrounded by hundreds of Saddam Hussein’s most feared troops after being sent far ahead of the frontline during the initial invasion of Iraq.

Based on hopelessly inaccurate intelligence, the Pathfinders – an elite airborne specialist reconnaissance unit – had been dispatched to recce an airfield hundreds of kilometres north of the British position for a potential airborne insertion of paratroopers. The area, far from being “relatively benign” as they had been told, was swarming with Republican Guard and Fedayeen. Realising they were boxed in and out numbered, they called for air support only to be told none was available.

Alone and surrounded, they fought their way back through repeated ambushes, saved by incredible luck and valour that would earn the unit two Military Crosses.

t was just days into the Iraq invasion and the six Pathfinders and three Royal Engineers had been sent north of the American front line to recce Qalat Sikar airfield – 120km north of Nasiriyah.

On 23 March 2003 they reached Nasiriyah, where the US Marine advance had been stalled by unexpected resistance in a battle that would cost them 29 men. Aware they had just 12 hours to complete their mission, the British patrol of three land rover WMIKs, loaded with six machine guns, moved through the frontline at last light, passing “zombie like”, shell shocked marines still recovering their dead.

Relying on US intelligence, they were stunned to suddenly find themselves in the middle of an Iraqi camp, Capt Blakeley explained: “They didn’t do anything because it was so outrageous. They didn’t expect us to suddenly move through their position.”

Now 80km north of the frontline, sporadic fire turned intense, continued the former officer: “We started to hear the crack, it was getting closer and Tricky who was on the 50-cal (heavy machine gun) said he could hear mortars so we pulled off the road in a snap ambush, using the cover of some trees.”

They watched as the headlights of 15 pick up trucks, each carrying a dozen of Iraq's feared Fedayeen in their distinctive white uniforms, drive past and realised they were trapped behind enemy lines.

Unable to go north or south, they headed east towards their objective only to find themselves boxed in by a canal, shadowy armed figures in the near distance. Debating whether to finish the last 40km on foot, they decided their only advantage was the speed and firepower of their vehicles and agreed they would call in air support.

“I was told instantly by a senior officer there was no air. It was like swallowing acid. They didn’t say wait out, we were not told they would try. Tricky said ‘ask again for combat recovery’ but I was told again there was nothing available. It was crushing, devastating. We were totally on our own, abandoned.”


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/betrayed-behind-enemy-lines-army-captain-breaks-silence-on-elite-units-fight-for-survival-7715789.html]



In a fortnight's time Pathfinder – A Special Forces Mission Behind Enemy Lines – will reveal the entire operation as well as the ugly story of how they were left to possible capture or death by their senior commanders.


.....NOTE THE BOOK TITLE

Its so good to be proven right. :-)