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Cardinal Brady - holed and sunk, but does he know it?

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    #122
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    Ironically, if he doesn't go, it will deal a swifter death blow to the power of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

    Imagine the reception he will get parading up and down O'Connell Street in his full dress and silly hat at next months congress when the Catholic Church was hoping for a bit of triumphalism. I wonder how many politicians will line up to bend the knee and kiss his ring.


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    #123
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    Happy Monday wrote: »
    Religious orders are just that - orders.
    Ah, the so-called "Nuremberg defense".


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    #124
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    Well they are certainly not religious.


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    #125
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Banbh wrote: »
    Ironically, if he doesn't go, it will deal a swifter death blow to the power of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

    Imagine the reception he will get parading up and down O'Connell Street in his full dress and silly hat at next months congress when the Catholic Church was hoping for a bit of triumphalism. I wonder how many politicians will line up to bend the knee and kiss his ring.

    Do you know if anybody is planning to protest at this, because I would like to lend my support to it.


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    #126
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    Great idea.


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    #127
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    who will organise the "Down with this sort of thing" and "Careful Now!" placards?


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    #128
    LittleBook
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭LittleBook


    recedite wrote: »
    here we have a faithful priest who rose up through the ranks, to the top job, by doing everything according to the book. Always following correct procedure and obeying them fully. And now pretty much the whole Irish population is calling for his resignation.
    How can the Vatican condemn him? On the other hand, he has become a liability. I think he's going to be shafted, its the only way out for them. He'll be getting a parcel from Rome soon containing the proverbial revolver and a bottle of whiskey.
    Banbh wrote: »
    Ironically, if he doesn't go, it will deal a swifter death blow to the power of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

    There was an interesting theory mentioned on the radio this morning (sorry, can't remember by who) that the Vatican may have taken an executive decision to cut their losses with Ireland.

    On a global scale they stand to lose more (money ... obviously) by the publicity that would surround the international scandal of a(nother) cardinal being forced to resign, than they do by leaving Brady where he is for another two years (when he retires at 75). So feck us! They've had enough of Ireland's shenanigans anyway ... tribunals, reports, closing our embassy (the cheek) ... so they'll excise this tiny island in order to prevent the spread of the disease to their global interests.

    What does Ireland really contribute to the coffers these days anyway? And there's the tiniest possibility that the Irish CC will one day be forced to hand over their assets to the state as restitution. I mean, heaven forbid the Vatican itself may be called upon to put it's hand in it's pocket for the victims of the abuse ... better distance ourselves from that scenario as soon as possible!

    And since I've only ever viewed them as I would any mult-national money-making corporation, this makes perfect sense to me.


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    #129
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    kbannon wrote: »
    who will organise the "Down with this sort of thing" and "Careful Now!" placards?

    and the stones! :D


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    #130
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    and the stones! :D

    You know the Rolling Stones!?


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    #131
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    You know the Rolling Stones!?

    Don't be taking the Mick!


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    #132
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    In fairness,he did highlight it to other higher ranking officials when he heard about it,and he said he beleived the boy..something i suspect a lot of other religious officials in his position mightnt have done..
    the fact he went public is like shooting himself,once journalists have a go you are finished.
    having said all that though,i do think the religious order in ireland was put on such a high pedastel that they were untouchable,people did not question them,they could do no wrong,they were once a huge authority in ireland,and the morality of even their priests was without question,which is why abusers could get away with it for so long


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    #133
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    In fairness,he did highlight it to other higher ranking officials when he heard about it,and he said he beleived the boy..something i suspect a lot of other religious officials in his position mightnt have done..
    I don't think him believing the boy's tale of rape is something that should be a redeeming factor.
    He could have followed up on this but didn't. He was the then bishop's part time secretary. He, of all people, possibly had ample opportunity do follow up on the case to make sure that justice was done. He failed to do so for wahtever reason you choose to believe.
    christmas2012 wrote: »
    the fact he went public is like shooting himself,once journalists have a go you are finished.
    When exactly did he go public? My understanding is that he has been firefighting all along and the revelations were because the victims are slowly becoming brave enough to come forwards.


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    #134
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    LostinKildare wrote: »
    See Patsy McGarry's piece in the Times today about Bruno Mulvihill, a priest who complained many times to different church officials about Brendan Smyth, to no avail. Sickening stuff.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0504/1224315592493.html


    He recalled seeing at Kilnacrott a “stiff decree” issued by the Vatican’s Congregation for Religious in 1968 concerning Fr Smyth. It said Fr Smyth was not to leave there without permission or without being accompanied by a trustworthy person for the rest of his life
    Am I reading that bolded part right?? For all the talk about strict deference to Church hierarchy, it seems that perhaps the problem was too little deference (to the Vatican's restriction of Smyth).

    If the Norbertines had complied with the decree, then the cover-up would have been effective. Smyth's earlier crimes would have gone unpunished, but his subsequent crimes would have been prevented. From a purely "church" point of view, you could say the Nuncio was at fault there for not checking up on the Norbertines, and similarly Brady and his boss, the Bishop, could have had a look in later on, just to see what Smyth was up to.
    But from a "common human decency" point of view, Smyth should have been turned over to the courts immediately. Social services could have been there to help the abused kids as they grew up.
    Interesting that Mulvihill who chose to speak out, ended up leaving the priesthood. While Brady, who stayed silent, went on to become cardinal and primate.


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    #135
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    he went public recently,yes i know its been in the public eye,but if he didnt agree to be interviewed again,all that stuff mightnt have been thrown up so intensely over the last coming days..

    i think he did do what he believed was the best of his ability to remedy the situation,its a pity that the higher ranking officials didnt do anything about it,as it was effectively in their hands..


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    #136
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    LittleBook wrote: »
    On a global scale they stand to lose more (money ... obviously) by the publicity that would surround the international scandal of a(nother) cardinal being forced to resign, than they do by leaving Brady where he is for another two years (when he retires at 75).
    The Vatican isn't so concerned about cash, as it is about reputation -- hence the text in the cardinal's oath above. The Vatican trades heavily upon its reputation a provider of moral-and-other-certainity, and that's very appealing to a lot of people. Stuff like this makes their certainty look a lot less certain.

    The Vatican and Brady have paddled themselves up a creek with this one -- they can't fire him and he can't resign without looking like minds are being changed and people admitting, by implication, that the Vatican's rules and regulations are less than perfect (hence Brady's insistence on the Nuermberg Defense). The implication of imperfection is a bigger threat to their business model than anything arising from the abuse inquiry.

    It would be so much easier if Jesus were to gather Brady unto himself over the weekend, but he's showing little sign of doing that. Not to add that it would have been easier still if Jesus had told Brady that raping children was bad, and leave Brady to do this decent thing 40 years ago, but Jesus seems to have forgotten to do that too.


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    #137
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    he went public recently,yes i know its been in the public eye,but if he didnt agree to be interviewed again,all that stuff mightnt have been thrown up so intensely over the last coming days..

    i think he did do what he believed was the best of his ability to remedy the situation,its a pity that the higher ranking officials didnt do anything about it,as it was effectively in their hands..
    He was effectively the second highest ranking member involved, being the bishop's secretary etc at the time.


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    #138
    Jimmy Bottlehead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,118 ✭✭✭✭Jimmy Bottlehead


    Listen, if I was told by a young lad that he was being abused, I'd PERSONALLY make sure that the abuser was confronted, that the child's parents were informed, and that the authorities were informed.

    I don't care what position or religion you are - if you're told a CHILD is being sexually abused, all the other details go out the window.

    There is not one person alive today who has a valid excuse not to do their best to make sure child abuse is stopped immediately when they have that knowledge.


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    #139
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    he went public recently,yes i know its been in the public eye,but if he didnt agree to be interviewed again,all that stuff mightnt have been thrown up so intensely over the last coming days..

    i think he did do what he believed was the best of his ability to remedy the situation,its a pity that the higher ranking officials didnt do anything about it,as it was effectively in their hands..
    When did he come out? He has responded to claims made against him but he never came out with anything. He never went public with anything.
    The only reason that we are discussing this is because the BBC with the help of some victims of abuse told us of what went on. Had it not been reported within the media about brady's disappointing inactions in the seventies, this information probably would have followed him to his grave.

    As for what he did to remedy the situation, what exactly did he do to remedy the situation? He took notes and made a vulnerable child swear an oath of secrecy? Is that what you call remedying a situation? He could have done so much more but did not. The reasons for this are unclear but the only thing that I can think of is that he couldn't be bothered because it was hassle and would have been very embarrassing for his employers.


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    #140
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    Three men call a boy into a room. Tell him he's not to tell his parents. Make him sign his name to an oath to tell nobody what goes on and then ask him about having erections and more. That alone is child abuse.


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    #141
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    I woudlnt for a minute say that wasnt wrong..I PERSONALLY THINK IT VERY MUCH IS MORALLY AND LEGALLY WRONG..I find it hard to think about it in a good light..What i was trying to say or understand is why it didnt get out,it was because priests were wrongfully put on pedastels by the irish public back then,nothing was said about the magdalene laundrys until recently too,thats because the church was seen as an authorative figure.I do think that the cardinal did what he thought in his head was right,eventhough myself i would struggle to not bring it out in the open personally myself..


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    #142
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    I woudlnt for a minute say that wasnt wrong..I PERSONALLY THINK IT VERY MUCH IS MORALLY AND LEGALLY WRONG..I find it hard to think about it in a good light..What i was trying to say or understand is why it didnt get out,it was because priests were wrongfully put on pedastels by the irish public back then,nothing was said about the magdalene laundrys until recently too,thats because the church was seen as an authorative figure.I do think that the cardinal did what he thought in his head was right,eventhough myself i would struggle to not bring it out in the open personally myself..

    So it's the Irish people's fault now?
    You say you would have had the moral strenght to intervene....have it now and call this what it is.
    The cardinal did what anybody who wanted to progress in the church would do....he shut up, and concealed it. And furthermore he concealed it up until the BBC did us all a favour and revealed it. That is despicable, he became one of the people he criticises for doing nothing back then and what did he do when he got into the most powerful position in the Irish Church? HE TOO DID NOTHING.


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    #143
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,350 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Banbh wrote: »
    Three men call a boy into a room. Tell him he's not to tell his parents. Make him sign his name to an oath to tell nobody what goes on and then ask him about having erections and more. That alone is child abuse.
    and asked him if he enjoyed it, i have heard. can anyone verify this?


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    #144
    ironingbored
    Registered Users Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭ironingbored


    @rtenews
    Aoife Kavanagh, the reporter on the Mission to Prey programme which libelled Fr Kevin Reynolds, has resigned from RTÉ.


    I wonder if Cardinal Brady has taken note. Not likely.


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    #145
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    and asked him if he enjoyed it, i have heard. can anyone verify this?

    ....and if he had enjoyed that type of thing with anybody else.
    Shocking that they sought an excuse for Smyth's evil, maybe they where gonna suggest it was because of the way he was dressed!


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    #146
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    and asked him if he enjoyed it, i have heard. can anyone verify this?

    He said it on the new programme I was watching last night, although I havent seen it written down anywhere.


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    #147
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,350 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Doctor DooM wrote: »
    He said it on the new programme I was watching last night, although I havent seen it written down anywhere.
    brady said it? which program?


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    #148
    Fortyniner
    Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭Fortyniner


    For me, one of the most distressing parts of the BBC programme was near the end, when the poor man who had reported that bastard Smythe all those years ago was reunited with his friend, a fellow victim, who doesn't want to be identified (understandably). He hugged his friend and said 'I thought I'd saved you, you know'.

    Anyone not moved by this has a heart of stone. Doesn't seem to have affected the cardinal or his mates though, does it?


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    #149
    Chiliroses
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Chiliroses


    All the priests, cardinals and "holy men" involved in this ongoing scandal are all evil and I believe it goes right to the top, to the pope, I'm not saying all priests etc. are bad but the pope has a responsibility to all the members of the of the catholic church, there needs to be an external investigation into this issue with full co-operation from the RCC.


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    #150
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    the irish public back then didnt put up a moral fight either,if you said anything you could be whipped away to the bold boys school,or if you got pregnant your own family would disown you,and that was from the public..people looked up to these religious figures and gave them a lot more authority than they should have had..
    as far as im concerned what the cardinal did was wrong and he shouldnt have just left it at that,but what i was saying was that by his moral logic he thought he had done all he could,which i dont think he did personally myself..


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    #151
    palmcut
    Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭palmcut


    The abuse of children was and is a horrible crime.

    The cover up and denial of this abuse was and is a horrible crime.

    The continued denial of this abuse using the mantra that it was a tiny minority was and is a horrible crime.

    The continued protection of the abusers was and is a horrible crime.


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