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Will the 'Troubles' ever happen again in N.Ireland?

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    #32
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Not true- the Ulster British are their own ethnic group, their own nation and as such entitled to the same right to self determination as the Irish.
    At the time of partition they were not a nation. Initially Ulster was going to be kept by Britain buy surveys showed that 3 counties (Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan) had a significant Catholic majority so they were dropped.
    Partition happened along sectarian lines. "Northern Ireland, a protestant state for a protestant people".


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    #33
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    At the time of partition they were not a nation. Initially Ulster was going to be kept by Britain buy surveys showed that 3 counties (Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan) had a significant Catholic majority so they were dropped.
    Partition happened along sectarian lines. "Northern Ireland, a protestant state for a protestant people".

    On the contrary the reason partition happened was because the Ulster British were clearly a separate nation to the Southern Irish. Religion did serve as a significator though for nationality- thats not to say that Northern Ireland wasnt governed terribly by the essentially Anglo-Irish elite that ceased control of it after partition.


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    #34
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Everything in N.I is sectarian. Our power sharing agreement is built on sectarianism, our schools are sectarian. We have no opposition in stormont and will always have a Unionist or Nationalist party working with each other.

    People either vote Orange or Green. Doesn't matter what policies the parties have. Saying the Orange Order is sectarian when the whole country involves it isn't a good argument like I said. It is basic cherry picking.

    Keith its possible to a Unionist or Loyalist without being sectarian but its not possible to be an Orange man without being sectarian.

    I dont think Sinn Fein is a sectarian organization as such also- they dont hate your people because of religion but because you are not pure blooded gaels.


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    #35
    Border-Rat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Border-Rat


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Everything in N.I is sectarian. Our power sharing agreement is built on sectarianism, our schools are sectarian. We have no opposition in stormont and will always have a Unionist or Nationalist party working with each other.

    People either vote Orange or Green. Doesn't matter what policies the parties have. Saying the Orange Order is sectarian when the whole country involves it isn't a good argument like I said. It is basic cherry picking.

    Two schools I had experience with - the Catholic one never mentioned the troubles or Protestantism. The 'mixed'/majority Protestant one had an unhealthy obsession with Roman Catholicism and the Pope. The actual Pope. I found it disturbing and very unsettling. No, everything isn't sectarian. Maybe thats how things are forced on your end.

    Are there tricolours flying inside Chapels? No, but the same can't be said for Union Jacks inside Protestant Churches. Which explains a lot about my school experiences TBH.


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    #36
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Keith its possible to a Unionist or Loyalist without being sectarian but its not possible to be an Orange man without being sectarian.

    I dont think Sinn Fein is a sectarian organization as such also- they dont hate your people because of religion but because you are not pure blooded gaels.
    I know that. I know the problem Sinn Fein has with the Ulster people loyal to the Union. But what I was saying is the whole set up in Northern Ireland is built around politics. Orange or Green.


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    #37
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    junder wrote: »
    And yet we have a young girl and het father laying in intensive care because somebody decided to rake thier car with gun fire and this only after a couple of weeks after somebody was murdered by gun men
    I would echo the sentiment of other posters who make the point that it can't be known what the motive behind this attack was.

    Also while the incident is horrific and the family have my every sympathy I don't think it can be compared to the full scale carnage brought by 'The Troubles'.

    Tell that to the family. as for the motive initial reports suggest dissident republicans targeting an alleged drug dealer


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    #38
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    Two schools I had experience with - the Catholic one never mentioned the troubles or Protestantism. The 'mixed'/majority Protestant one had an unhealthy obsession with Roman Catholicism and the Pope. No, everything isn't sectarian. Maybe thats how things are forced on your end.

    Are there tricolours flying inside Chapels? No, but the same can't be said for Union Jacks inside Protestant Churches. Which explains a lot about my school experiences TBH.
    The Tri colour was used during the Troubles on IRA coffins being moved into Chapels. So yes, it does happen. I don't see the big issue regarding the Union flag being in Protestant churches in the United Kingdom. Perhaps you might not like it but then again, that isn't up to you.


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    #39
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Everything in N.I is sectarian. Our power sharing agreement is built on sectarianism, our schools are sectarian. We have no opposition in stormont and will always have a Unionist or Nationalist party working with each other.

    People either vote Orange or Green. Doesn't matter what policies the parties have. Saying the Orange Order is sectarian when the whole country involves it isn't a good argument like I said. It is basic cherry picking.


    I agree, Bit like the way things where in the south between FG/FF back in the day, Eventually this bitterness will slide away and hopefully new parties might emerge in the not so distant future one hopes.


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    #40
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Everything in N.I is sectarian. Our power sharing agreement is built on sectarianism, our schools are sectarian. We have no opposition in stormont and will always have a Unionist or Nationalist party working with each other.

    People either vote Orange or Green. Doesn't matter what policies the parties have. Saying the Orange Order is sectarian when the whole country involves it isn't a good argument like I said. It is basic cherry picking.

    Keith its possible to a Unionist or Loyalist without being sectarian but its not possible to be an Orange man without being sectarian.

    I dont think Sinn Fein is a sectarian organization as such also- they dont hate your people because of religion but because you are not pure blooded gaels.

    I know plenty of orange men who are not sectarian met a few republicans who would love to see the ethnic cleansing of the unionist community


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    #41
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    The 'mixed'/majority Protestant one had an unhealthy obsession with Roman Catholicism and the Pope. The actual Pope. I found it disturbing and very unsettling.

    I have found this too and yes it is disturbing- it is very off putting for a lot of people on mainland UK who otherwise would sympathetic to the Loyalist cause. A lot of Ulster Protestants seem actually to see hedonistic liberal secularism as being a much prefered option to Roman Catholicism (and one has to wonder even Anglo-Catholicism?- something that the Orange Order in England have been militantly opposed for years, even picketing pilgrimages to Walsingham).


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    #42
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    under wrote: »
    I know plenty of orange men who are not sectarian met a few republicans who would love to see the ethnic cleansing of the unionist community


    So your point being that there are sectarian republicans as there are sectarian loyalists/unionists, Nothing new there.


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    #43
    Border-Rat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Border-Rat


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The Tri colour was used during the Troubles on IRA coffins being moved into Chapels. So yes, it does happen. I don't see the big issue regarding the Union flag being in Protestant churches in the United Kingdom. Perhaps you might not like it but then again, that isn't up to you.

    Those are one-offs. The Union Jack hanging inside a Church is a permanent fixture and inadvertently or deliberately makes the religion a political one. Having grown up in two mixed schools during the troubles I can say that sectarianism was a definite feature - including bald-faced sectarianism towards minors from teachers. At least three times I was approached by a teacher and asked to confirm my religion.

    Drumcree, Holycross and McGuinness becoming Minister for Education were for my fellow Catholic pupils and I 'defensive' in nature, to put it one way in state schools.


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    #44
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    junder wrote: »
    I know plenty of orange men who are not sectarian met a few republicans who would love to see the ethnic cleansing of the unionist community

    Im well aware than the Provisional movement wants the Ulster British off the island and that is something that I find unjust to put it mildly- I support the right of self determination for your people, but please be honest how can someone be a member of the Orange Order, who's very reason for being is to oppose Catholicism and to celebrate the taking away of Religious liberty from British Catholics and not be sectarian?


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    #45
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    Those are one-offs. The Union Jack hanging inside a Church is a permanent fixture and inadvertently or deliberately makes the religion a political one. Having grown up in two mixed schools during the troubles I can say that sectarianism was a definite feature - including bald-faced sectarianism towards minors from teachers. At least three times I was approached by a teacher and asked to confirm my religion.

    Drumcree, Holycross and McGuinness becoming Minister for Education were for my fellow Catholic pupils and I 'defensive' in nature, to put it one way in state schools.
    I don't see what you find so wrong about hanging a flag in a church which is attended by Unionists?


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    #46
    tfitzgerald
    Registered Users Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭tfitzgerald


    I think that the main thing is that the killing has stopped. In time I think new parties will spring up and the old sectarian politics will die out I think a lot of the younger people want all this hatred put behind them.


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    #47
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Im well aware than the Provisional movement wants the Ulster British off the island
    Where did you get that idea?
    Noone logically thinks that unionists can somehow be repatriated to their ancestoral homes! The main focus is on including them in Irish society and not excluding them in an enclave in the north east.


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    #48
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    ........... but because you are not pure blooded gaels.

    And what do you base that on?


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    #49
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Where did you get that idea?
    Noone logically thinks that unionists can somehow be repatriated to their ancestoral homes! The main focus is on including them in Irish society and not excluding them in an enclave in the north east.

    The PIRA knew that if the British state withdrew their would be a communal blood bath- and yet they carried out a terrorist campaign for long years to get the British state to do just that. Given their insistence on a 32 county Republic what other conclusions can we draw?


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    #50
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,460 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    It all depends on whether SF can continue to garner support of the younger generations of nationalists within Northern Ireland who wish to see the creation of a United Ireland - and that all depends on whether the GFA can actually deliver a United Ireland. If SF were to lose support of such adolescents to the likes of the 32CSM and RSF then the likelihood of violence in the future increases, in my view.


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    #51
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    The PIRA ..........can we draw?

    Sorry, could you get back to me on this.....
    I dont think Sinn Fein is a sectarian organization as such also- they dont hate your people because of religion but because you are not pure blooded gaels.

    What is that statement based on?


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    #52
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Nodin wrote: »
    Sorry, could you get back to me on this.....



    What is that statement based on?

    The use of the term planters when most of the Ulster British did not come over as part of the plantation. The fact that Republicans will state that the Ulster British presence on this island was an Imperialist ploy.


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    #53
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    The use of the term planters when most of the Ulster British did not come over as part of the plantation..

    You might point out where in Sinn Fein policy documents "planters" are referred to, or where discrimination/hatred against same is advocated. You might look for any reference to "full blooded gaels" or similar phrase while you're at it.
    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    The fact that Republicans will state that the Ulster British presence on this island was an Imperialist ploy.

    We're talking about Sinn Fein specifically because thats who you referred to, so please don't start to use vague phrases like "Republicans".

    Stating that an "Ulster British presence" was an "imperialist ploy" is rather different than stating that there is a "full blooded.." gaelic race, or that the "Ulster British" must be hated etc.


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    #54
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...What is that statement based on?

    if you go to some of the more, err...'interesting' republican websites you'll see comments and attitudes that would not have been out of place during the Balkan wars, or indeed during the crusades.

    you will also, to be strictly fair, see others condemn such comments with great force and more than a little republican ideology, but if anyone were to believe that republicanism has not been 'infected' with a strain of hiberno-catholic-nationalism that views ethnic cleansing as a sensible, and indeed desirable policy, then they'd be sorely disapointed.


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    #55
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Nodin wrote: »

    We're talking about Sinn Fein specifically because thats who you referred to, so please don't start to use vague phrases like "Republicans".

    Stating that an "Ulster British presence" was an "imperialist ploy" is rather different than stating that there is a "full blooded.." gaelic race, or that the "Ulster British" must be hated etc.

    Anyone who celebrates the terrorist campaign of the Provisional IRA must also hate the Ulster British- that stands to reason and to deny that is as childish as Junder's fib about knowing non-sectarian Orange men.

    Go to Ulster and chat with Sinn Fein activists- yes their public announcements are all very PC and rosy but its a different story on the ground.


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    #56
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    OS119 wrote: »
    if you go to some of the more, err...'interesting' republican websites you'll see comments and attitudes that would not have been out of place during the Balkan wars, or indeed during the crusades.

    you will also, to be strictly fair, see others condemn such comments with great force and more than a little republican ideology, but if anyone were to believe that republicanism has not been 'infected' with a strain of hiberno-catholic-nationalism that views ethnic cleansing as a sensible, and indeed desirable policy, then they'd be sorely disapointed.

    There are always idiots who seek to attach themselves to ideologies they believe can justify their own pre-existing bigotries. It's rather ridiculous to suggest that such nonsense as described is widely held in the republican community, or within Sinn Fein specifically. Otherwise we can find the lowest denominator supporting any given party and tar them accordingly.


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    #57
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Anyone who celebrates the terrorist campaign of the Provisional IRA must also hate the Ulster British- that stands to reason and to deny that is as childish as Junder's fib about knowing non-sectarian Orange men..

    I supported the PIRA campaign, and I do not "hate the Ulster British". Nor do I have any belief in this "full blooded gael" guff.
    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Go to Ulster and chat with Sinn Fein activists- yes their public announcements are all very PC and rosy but its a different story on the ground.

    So you've no evidence whatsoever with regards Sinn Fein policy then?


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    #58
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    junder wrote: »
    I know plenty of orange men who are not sectarian met a few republicans who would love to see the ethnic cleansing of the unionist community

    Im well aware than the Provisional movement wants the Ulster British off the island and that is something that I find unjust to put it mildly- I support the right of self determination for your people, but please be honest how can someone be a member of the Orange Order, who's very reason for being is to oppose Catholicism and to celebrate the taking away of Religious liberty from British Catholics and not be sectarian?

    The battle of the boyne which is the primary thing the orange order celebrates was not a Protestant vrs catholoc war I am afraid however the orange order is a Protestant orginization that by that definition celebrates the reformation, you can not be a roman catholic and celebrate the reformation since the reformation was a rejection of the very ideals that the roman catholic faith is founded on which is why the whole argument about the orange order not letting roman Catholics join is nonsense, you may as well accuse womens group of being sexist for not letting men join. I am not in the orange but I am in a flute band, one that is 130 Years old and I am very much looking forward to the 12th this year, espically as we will be wearing our new uniforms and trust me the only thing on my mind that day will be my sore feet as it's a very very long walk


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    #59
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    junder wrote: »
    The battle of the boyne which is the primary thing the orange order celebrates was not a Protestant vrs catholoc war I am afraid however the orange order is a Protestant orginization that by that definition celebrates the reformation

    The "Glorious Revolution" or "Inglorious coup" sold itself on the basis of King James II's Catholicism. King James II had given religious freedom not only to Roman Catholics but also to puritans which gave his enemies the justification for importing King William. Its victory meant the denial of Religious liberty to British Catholics. Also if the Orange Order was simply there to celebrate Protestantism I wouldnt have any major problems- but the fact is that its primary objective is not that but to oppose Catholicism.


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    #60
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    Those are one-offs. The Union Jack hanging inside a Church is a permanent fixture and inadvertently or deliberately makes the religion a political one. Having grown up in two mixed schools during the troubles I can say that sectarianism was a definite feature - including bald-faced sectarianism towards minors from teachers. At least three times I was approached by a teacher and asked to confirm my religion.

    Drumcree, Holycross and McGuinness becoming Minister for Education were for my fellow Catholic pupils and I 'defensive' in nature, to put it one way in state schools.

    I was not aware of any sectarianism from either of the schools I attended, although I can't speak for all state or majority-Protestant schools. I do remember as a 10-year old being called a "Fenian" (EDIT: By a fellow pupil) because I came to school with a rugby scarf which said "Ireland" on it. I hadn't heard the word before although I did explain to him that it wasn't a football scarf and that Rugby was an all-Ireland sport.

    But I think in return for NI remaining part if the UK, people have to accept that Britishness shouldn't always be expressed in the same way as in England. Let's keep it low-key. In fact there is something "British" about being reserved about nationality. Sticking union flags all over the place or in churches isn't the way to do it.


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    #61
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    junder wrote: »
    The battle of the boyne which is the primary thing the orange order celebrates was not a Protestant vrs catholoc war I am afraid however the orange order is a Protestant orginization that by that definition celebrates the reformation, you can not be a roman catholic and celebrate the reformation since the reformation was a rejection of the very ideals that the roman catholic faith is founded on which is why the whole argument about the orange order not letting roman Catholics join is nonsense, you may as well accuse womens group of being sexist for not letting men join. I am not in the orange but I am in a flute band, one that is 130 Years old and I am very much looking forward to the 12th this year, especially as we will be wearing our new uniforms and trust me the only thing on my mind that day will be my sore feet as it's a very very long walk
    Why were people kicked out of the order for associating or socialising with catholics? Why is/was there a ban on a protestant married into a catholic family from joining?


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