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New Household Tax - Boycott
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If nobody is charged or arrested, people scream "corruption". When somebody is charged or arrested, people scream "corruption".
That's because in both cases it's evident that some level of corruption is occurring. In one, justice is being denied and delayed, in the other, the machinery of the state (the Gardai) is being instructed to time high profile arrests to give the maximum political benefit to their paymasters.
Now if the banking investigation was to continue apace by our law enforcement authorities, without any kind of involvement or influence from politicians whatsoever, and high profile arrests were announced when they were announced, instead of coincidentally being announced the evening before a bad news day for the presiding government, just in time to make the deadline for the next day's papers and morning radio shows, i might claim there was less corruption going on.
But a REAL separation of powers, and trusting that our politicians could just do their job and leave our law enforcement agencies to do theirs?? That's just wishful thinking in Ireland, isn't it.....the fact that this tax is being introduced without any widespread campaign to root out wastage and inefficiencies in local government in the country, will just entrench higher rates of property tax than would be necessary if we stamped out the waste first............
They will chase the ordinary Joe to the gates of hell over a small sum, but to those that helped cause our downfall, no sign of legal action, fines or penalties against them, even several years later.
Justifying the introduction of a property tax through comparison with other countries, as the government has done, is a dangerous road to go down...............
Virtually all the countries mentioned also have a lower cost of living than we do here.......
Well done on an excellent post. I really can't argue with you much, as i feel that every point you made is valid, and highlights the very many concerns i have around the lack of social justice in Ireland today, which for me is what makes this regime of levies and tax hikes unpalatable.
It's not being asked to pay to fix this mess which galls me though, it's being asked to pay while a culture of greed and waste is still tolerated, as you pointed out, and the elite who caused the problem not only remain unpunished, but in many cases are getting away without any financial sanction or burden as part of the redress of the issues while everybody else is picking up their tab.
The point of my post though, was along the lines of: Aren't these other inequities and social injustices not for more worthy of protest than a tax which would appear to be being earmarked for local authority spending (albeit not in a perfect manner, as you pointed out)??
I don't like having to pay a local authority tax, on top of all the other taxes i have to pay which are spent inefficiently, and i especially don't like how every time a new tax is trotted out, the old excuse of "ah sure everybody else has been doing this for years" follows it without comparing apples with apples and admitting that the tax regime in the relevant countries is fundamentally different.
I fundamentally dislike this, but i dislike it a lot less than i do using taxpayers money to pay goldman sachs 100% of a €1billion bond that they bought for 20 cents in the euro from scared bondholders just months earlier.
I am more inclined to protest that there are children dying in chronically under-resourced pediatric hospitals which can't afford to give their patients a half decent level of service, and hundreds of patients lying on trollies in corridors up and down the country, and there's no money to improve things because the HSE is stuffed with overpaid middle managers with jobs for life, protected by trade union leaders who all still have their snouts in the celtic tiger trough.
It annoys me more that the chief architects of this disaster, all who have been found to be complicit and corrupt, are still swanning around in state cars paid for by hard pressed taxpayers, drawing down enormous pensions while the rest of us struggle to pay basic bills and make ends meet.
My point was this: Sure the household tax is far from ideal, but a small tax being paid to fund local authority services, as imperfect as they are, more or less directly helping the people who are paying it, surely is less worthy of protest than the issues we've both raised here? When you look at the various straws that the camel has been asked to bear up until this point, it seems strange to me that this is the one that has broken it's back.0 -
Yes, yes, yes, we know, everything was the fault of the bankers and politicians and they should be made pay for everything....where is the evidence of the same tough and speedy approach being applied to the pursuit of bankers, building society chiefs, property developers, businessmen and corrupt/incompetent politicians etc, whose behaviour led to the collapse of our economy ?
Someone, please, change the record.
All of which is completely irrelevant. Ireland is spending more than it is receiving in income. End of story.Justifying the introduction of a property tax through comparison with other countries, as the government has done, is a dangerous road to go down, most of the named countries did not have the same high rates of stamp duty, do not have VRT, in many cases have much lower rates of excise duty on beer, wine and cigarettes and in the case of the US, they have far lower taxes on fuel and much lower VAT rates. Virtually all the countries mentioned also have a lower cost of living than we do here.0 -
Unless you’ve get some evidence to support this, it’s just hearsay.Deleted User wrote: »That's because in both cases it's evident that some level of corruption is occurring. In one, justice is being denied and delayed, in the other, the machinery of the state (the Gardai) is being instructed to time high profile arrests to give the maximum political benefit to their paymasters.
When are we going to move away from this idea that this €14 billion hole in Ireland’s finances is exclusively the fault of “the elite”? It’s really, really simple – Ireland is paying far more than it can afford to on welfare and public sector salaries. “The elite” have nothing to do with it.Deleted User wrote: »It's not being asked to pay to fix this mess which galls me though, it's being asked to pay while a culture of greed and waste is still tolerated, as you pointed out, and the elite who caused the problem not only remain unpunished, but in many cases are getting away without any financial sanction or burden as part of the redress of the issues while everybody else is picking up their tab.0 -
The Household Charge is the straw that broke the camel's back, in of inself its true that it isn't significant, but it is the forerunner of a property tax regime that is sure to be far more expensive and the fact that this tax is being introduced without any widespread campaign to root out wastage and inefficiencies in local government in the country, will just entrench higher rates of property tax than would be necessary if we stamped out the waste first.
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Let us be fair to local authorities. Take the 2012 budget for Fingal County Council:
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/YourLocalCouncil/AboutFingal/OtherServices/Finance/AnnualBudget/Annual%20Budget%202012.pdf
Have you read the bit that says: "The Council’s payroll costs for 2012, exclusive of pensions and travelling expenses is estimated at €66.5m. The equivalent cost in 2009 was €82.9m, a reduction of over 19.8% in the three years."
Or this bit "I am recommending a further reduction of 2% in commercial rates for 2012. A similar reduction was applied in 2011."
In total the budgeted expenditure for 2012 is 11% less than 2011. 11% IN ONE YEAR!! How much more efficiency do people want????
We are still getting rants on these boards about public services which ignore the facts that there have been huge efficiencies in many parts of the public service - local authorities, higher education, central civil service - while it is other areas such as the health service and primary and second-level education that have failed to deliver. The debate should be moving on from ill-informed rants to actual examination of figures, trends and statistics to determine where the reform has failed to date.
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Unless you’ve get some evidence to support this, it’s just hearsay.
Really? Is this Bertie, posting under a nom de plume?
It doesn't suit your argument to acknowledge my point, so you rubbish it for lack of evidence even though the dogs in the street can see what's going on here?
Give people some credit and stop hiding behind the same tired old "you can't prove anything" line. Government ministers and secretaries are not in the habit of leaving phone transcriptions and paper trails behind them when they assert improper influence over the "independent" state institutions they should be staying well away from.
That doesn't mean that a blind man couldn't see that the timing of populist high profile arrests on the eve of expected bad press for the government is at the very least giving the impression of collusion. This in itself is grounds enough for sanction, even if there's absolutely nothing untoward going on (and that's a BIG "if")Yes, yes, yes, we know, everything was the fault of the bankers and politicians and they should be made pay for everything.
Someone, please, change the record...
No. No i absolutely will not change the record. Not until they ARE made to pay, which none of them have been made to do so far, because people with your frame of mind would have us believe that it's all OK to brush it under the carpet, forget it, and move on.
"We are where we are, and there's no point in looking back now". That's the classic fallacy that has us in this mess. We have zero visible deterrent against corruption, mismanagement, and criminal negligence in public life. No matter what happens, what's reported, how many millions are spent, nobody is brought to justice, and yet we're puzzled as to why it just keeps on happening to us.....
The more noise people like me make about injustices like this, the more difficult that brushing it all under the carpet becomes, and that's fine by me. I demand accountability for the crimes still going unpunished here, which have brought so much misery to so many people, and until i see it i will keep playing the same old record, and annoying people with attitudes like yours as much as i can.0 -
For real?In total the budgeted expenditure for 2012 is 11% less than 2011. 11% IN ONE YEAR!! How much more efficiency do people want????[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
How many city, county, borough and town councils do people want?
By the time I drive out my parents' gateway in Tipperary and arrive at my aunt's house on the far side of that great shire, I will have passed through no less than seven different town or borough council areas, and two county council areas for that one county.
The latter arrangement is at last coming to an end, but is being maintained elsewhere. This sort of rubbish is an historical artifact of the Victorian era. It is not an efficient system of governance. I would absolutely reject its being propped up by household taxes in its current format on that principle alone.0 -
I don’t agree with your reasoning, but it makes a change from “I’m not paying until we stop bailing out the IMF, or something”.This post had been deleted.
And also increasing salaries and/or employment opportunities, through public sector employment, for a sizeable chunk of the same public and therein lies the conflict of interest.This post had been deleted.
I don’t think Irish people could be described as victims of anything – they’re reaping what they’ve sewn by repeatedly re-electing governments who implement unsustainable, populist policies.This post had been deleted.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your general point – I do think there is scope for huge reduction in public expenditure. But, not without massive public opposition which would likely bring the country grinding to a halt.0 -
Ah, “the dogs on the street” – the last vestige of a baseless argument.Deleted User wrote: »It doesn't suit your argument to acknowledge my point, so you rubbish it for lack of evidence even though the dogs in the street can see what's going on here?
I’m sorry, you’re saying it should be punishable under law for someone to give the impression that they are doing something illegal?Deleted User wrote: »That doesn't mean that a blind man couldn't see that the timing of populist high profile arrests on the eve of expected bad press for the government is at the very least giving the impression of collusion. This in itself is grounds enough for sanction, even if there's absolutely nothing untoward going on
I have said no such thing. Quite the opposite in fact – anyone suspected of illegal activity should be prosecuted.Deleted User wrote: »No. No i absolutely will not change the record. Not until they ARE made to pay, which none of them have been made to do so far, because people with your frame of mind would have us believe that it's all OK to brush it under the carpet, forget it, and move on.
However, what I am pretty much sick and tired of hearing over the last number of years is this line that “the elite” are responsible for everything and we should all sit around and wait until they have been punished before moving forward and getting Ireland’s finances in order. Building cases against white collar criminals can take decades – Ireland doesn’t have that kind of time to kill.
Because people keep electing **** politicians. Case in point: Michael Lowry is probably the most crooked TD in the country, yet he consistently tops the polls in Tipperary North. As I said above, people reap what they sow.Deleted User wrote: »"We are where we are, and there's no point in looking back now". That's the classic fallacy that has us in this mess. We have zero visible deterrent against corruption, mismanagement, and criminal negligence in public life. No matter what happens, what's reported, how many millions are spent, nobody is brought to justice, and yet we're puzzled as to why it just keeps on happening to us.....0 -
For real?
How many city, county, borough and town councils do people want?
By the time I drive out my parents' gateway in Tipperary and arrive at my aunt's house on the far side of that great shire, I will have passed through no less than seven different town or borough council areas, and two county council areas for that one county.
The latter arrangement is at last coming to an end, but is being maintained elsewhere. This sort of rubbish is an historical artifact of the Victorian era. It is not an efficient system of governance. I would absolutely reject its being propped up by household taxes in its current format on that principle alone.
One thing at a time. Budgets are being slashed, the evidence is clear, there are savings to the taxpayers.
There is a process of amalgamation already under way in respect of the VECs. You don't have to be Einstein to realise that as that starts to work, a similar process will begin with the councils. It is easier to start with the VECs because there is less of a political problem in dealing with them.
Finally, amalgamations usually cost money in the short-term (one to two years), just examine accounts of large publicly-quoted firms.0 -
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of all the posters on this thread how many have since paid the household charge?.
and how many more shall be paying it on here since tomorrow is the 31st march deadline,go on dont be afraid to say you paid it after all your macho ranting waffle about you were,nt gonna pay it.0 -
For starters what? I'm really not arsed reading through blog posts and/or a thread on another site - what's your point?
My point, and the point that several others are trying to put accross, is that everytime there is a payout to bondholders there is a coincidental arrest of a banker or, as in the case of Callaly, a politician that the public detest.On the three occasions that the Irish Government made controversial payments of billions of Irish taxpayers money to international unsecured unguaranteed bondholders for Anglo Irish Bank debt (€29 billion in total bailout and now owned by the State) , this is also what happened either on the eve or the same day:
1st November 2011: former Anglo finance director, Willie McAteer was re-arrested. That was on the eve of the controversial payment of USD 1bn (€730m) to unsecured, unguaranteed bondholders.
9th December 2011: former Anglo chairman, Sean Fitzpatrick was re-arrested.
25th January 2012: Ivor Callely taken in for questioning over bogus mobile phone expense claims.
Yesterday, a couple of days before the latest round of bondholder payouts were due to be made, we see Fingleton is going to be charged. Considering Alan Dukes was promising these charges would be forthcoming several months ago, do you not think it is more than coincidental that these events always seem to coincide?0 -
Yes, but I'm talking about local government itself. Revenue raising measures make it easier for governments to shirk on expenditure cuts. I'd rather the cuts came first, especially when the need for efficiency in the area of local government is so staggeringly obvious.There is a process of amalgamation already under way in respect of the VECs.
I'm not sure if I would liken the merger of North and South Tipperary County Councils to the merger between Exxon and Mobil. The above statement is hardly an argument against amalgamating councils. There is no justifiable reason to maintain so many local government bodies.Finally, amalgamations usually cost money in the short-term (one to two years), just examine accounts of large publicly-quoted firms.0 -
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Completely agree Permabear, but the government will not take on the public service unions. They're terrified of them. But they're quite happy to hack away at everyone else's incomes particularly the most disadvantaged.
But that day will arrive, no doubt when the troika turn their eyes onto the massive wages bill and also note that other countries have slashed their bloated public service bills.0 -
Ah, “the dogs on the street” – the last vestige of a baseless argument
The level of disrespect you show to posters with contradictory opinions on this forum is staggering, particularly as you are someone in a position of moderation who is well aware of the kind of standard of debate which boards.ie aspires to. I'm going to ignore your mudslinging from this point on. My point is valid and relevant, despite your "baseless argument" allegation.I’m sorry, you’re saying it should be punishable under law for someone to give the impression that they are doing something illegal?
When did i mention punishment under law?. I merely mentioned that it was grounds enough for sanction or criticism of the minister or party in question, which it is. There is a difference between a sanction and a criminal sanction.
To quote myself:Deleted User wrote: »the timing of populist high profile arrests on the eve of expected bad press for the government is at the very least giving the impression of collusion. This in itself is grounds enough for sanction, even if there's absolutely nothing untoward going on
Government ministers who are in a privileged position of power should know better than to interfere, or to give the impression of having interfered with independent state instruments or institutions tasked with carrying out their duties in an impartial manner without bias or favour. They are expected to be incontrovertibly impartial to the activities of such bodies, and when they are not, there are grounds for sanction.
Have we not just seen the Mahon report criticising several senior ministers from our last government for doing exactly this? I fail to see how this point is arguable.Michael Lowry is probably the most crooked TD in the country, yet he consistently tops the polls in Tipperary North....
To quote you:Unless you’ve get some evidence to support this, it’s just hearsay....
Oh, and you had probably better not come back with the old "dog's on the street" argument. Apparently that doesn't fly here....;)0 -
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I agree with all of this. However if we want to protest then these are things we should be protesting about. Not about a 100 euro charge that no matter what we are going to need. We don't have a sustainable tax base right now so we need to sort the things above and make our tax base more sustainable. It could take years to sort out the inefficiencies and in the meantime we'd have to borrow even more money.
There was massive waste during the bubble years and very few people protested. We were very happy to take the tax cuts we received without a complaint, no matter how inefficient the government was. Even though things are much more efficient now it's a big problem for us as we are getting tax increases. Honestly people made their beds and now don't want to lie in them. So while I do want efficiencies I'm not remotely inclined to support the household charge protests.0 -
Agreed - I’m not disputing that we’re talking about a (very) vocal minority. But I think people are over-stating the level of sympathy felt among the general public for the “plight” of so-called “front line” workers (nurses, gardaí, firemen, etc), especially when they we will be perceived as being unfairly targeted ahead of “the elite”.This post had been deleted.
Fair enough, but there’s always a least worst option. Furthermore, had the general public protested en masse against the extortionate levels of VRT and stamp duty that were being levied, it is not entirely inconceivable that the government may have been forced to reconsider its revenue streams, possibly resulting in a more sustainable tax system. Not only that, but it’s likely that taxation revenue would not have climbed anywhere nearly as high as it did, meaning welfare payments and public sector salaries would have remained at a more modest level.This post had been deleted.0 -
I’m not disrespecting anyone. I am questioning your logic. Correlation does not imply causation. I’m not even convinced that there is a correlation.Deleted User wrote: »The level of disrespect you show to posters with contradictory opinions on this forum is staggering...
“Give the impression” to whom? You? Me? The dogs on the street?Deleted User wrote: »Government ministers who are in a privileged position of power should know better than to interfere, or to give the impression of having interfered with independent state instruments or institutions tasked with carrying out their duties in an impartial manner without bias or favour.
I am not arguing against the sanctioning of TD’s who have been shown, beyond reasonable doubt, to have transgressed. What I am arguing against is the idea that sanctions should be imposed where a TD has “given the impression” of transgressing, because that is just plain ridiculous.Deleted User wrote: »Have we not just seen the Mahon report criticising several senior ministers from our last government for doing exactly this? I fail to see how this point is arguable.
Where to start...Deleted User wrote: »Oh, and you had probably better not come back with the old "dog's on the street" argument. Apparently that doesn't fly here....;)
It was revealed at the McCracken Tribunal that Ben Dunne paid almost IR£400,000 for an extension to Lowry’s house – that is one hell of an extension. The tribunal also concluded that Lowry was guilty of tax evasion, forcing him to resign from Fine Gael.
The Moriarty Tribunal found that Lowry, in his capacity as Minster for Communications in the mid 90’s, assisted Denis O’Brien’s Esat Digiphone in acquiring a mobile phone licence, describing his intervention as “disgraceful and insidious”. The tribunal tallied the known payments from O’Brien to Lowry at almost GBP£800,000 and also found that Lowry held four offshore accounts for the purpose of tax evasion – he had previously claimed at the McCracken tribunal that he didn’t have any.0 -
Regarding blaming the Irish people, posted this on another thread:I agree with all of this. However if we want to protest then these are things we should be protesting about. Not about a 100 euro charge that no matter what we are going to need. We don't have a sustainable tax base right now so we need to sort the things above and make our tax base more sustainable. It could take years to sort out the inefficiencies and in the meantime we'd have to borrow even more money.
There was massive waste during the bubble years and very few people protested. We were very happy to take the tax cuts we received without a complaint, no matter how inefficient the government was. Even though things are much more efficient now it's a big problem for us as we are getting tax increases. Honestly people made their beds and now don't want to lie in them. So while I do want efficiencies I'm not remotely inclined to support the household charge protests.KyussBishop wrote:Additionally, while there is a societal influence that allows much of this mismanagement and corruption in government, it is completely disingenuous to say or imply that this is the fault of the Irish people.
Without a functioning source of unrestrained information and decent investigative journalism, the population can't be kept informed, and can't really do a whole lot about government corruption they're unaware of.
Reports of backhanders, property rezoning fraud, nepotism etc. etc. are confined to anecdotal, unsubstantiated pub talk, and not being broadcast to the population at large like they should be.
That is not the fault of the populous, and blaming it on the Irish people without opposition, opens up a lot of other disingenuous arguments that e.g. Irish people deserve what they get, are at fault for their own suffering, and various other ridiculous arguments like that.
It's a very peculiar thing to be honest, that there is that kind of accepted nationalistic self-loathing in Ireland; I don't understand that at all, and it is highly in the governments interest to promote that (can't think of anyone else who can gain from it), so it kind of baffles me how it is accepted uncritically.
As for the Household Tax boycott, right now it is the most effective way for the Irish people to protest; protesting just involves a certain level of inaction rather than action (e.g. going to a protest march), which is the easiest way to protest, and it's pretty roundly putting pressure on government.
To me, it seems a pretty apt way of venting public anger and bringing greater public attention to various issues, particularly in light of the final Mahon report, and the endemic ongoing corruption and mismanagement.
Most people will pay up in the end, but in the meantime, it is a very effective method of protest and raising (much needed) dissatisfaction with government.0 -
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Yes, but I'm talking about local government itself. Revenue raising measures make it easier for governments to shirk on expenditure cuts. I'd rather the cuts came first, especially when the need for efficiency in the area of local government is so staggeringly obvious.
I'm not sure if I would liken the merger of North and South Tipperary County Councils to the merger between Exxon and Mobil. The above statement is hardly an argument against amalgamating councils. There is no justifiable reason to maintain so many local government bodies.
It might be easier to understand if you used my full post rather than quoting selectively from it.One thing at a time. Budgets are being slashed, the evidence is clear, there are savings to the taxpayers..
You don't quote this first part of my post so I take it you are in full agreement with this statement.There is a process of amalgamation already under way in respect of the VECs. ..
In response you say "Yes, but I'm talking about local government itself". Believe it or not, I knew that you were talking about local government which is why I went on to say:You don't have to be Einstein to realise that as that starts to work, a similar process will begin with the councils. It is easier to start with the VECs because there is less of a political problem in dealing with them. ..
You see the very next sentence of my post mentioned "councils" but you chose to leave it out making the snide comment that you were talking about local government. It also allowed you (like many posters on here) to continue pontificating from on high about how they would use their crayons to reorganise the public service and ignore the realities that such change is rarely achived overnight and requires co-operation from those on the ground. "Smash the unions" sounds good from behind a computer keyboard or typing on a smartphone but the reality for public service management is how do you juggle maintaining and improving services, cutting costs, placating staff and at the same time undergoing major organisational change while at the same time you have politicians who will mouth that they are in favour of change yet resist it all the way. Change is coming, there is no doubt about that but amalgamating the VECs is a useful dry run exercise for doing the same with local councils.Finally, amalgamations usually cost money in the short-term (one to two years), just examine accounts of large publicly-quoted firms.
Find me a private sector publicly quoted company that has undergone amalgamation without incurring significant one-off exceptional charges relative to their size. Doesn't matter whether they are big or small, amalgamations cost money in the short run.
Finally, where in any of my posts have I sought to justify maintaining so many local government bodies. All I have done, which you have chosen to ignore because it doesn't suit the anti-public service rant (which is now allied to the won't pay the household charge rant), is to state that amalgamations will come, they won't happen overnight, the VEC amalgamations will provide a useful dry run and there will be short-term costs. Maybe it does take Einstein to understand my posts.0 -
KyussBishop wrote: »the endemic ongoing corruption.
I will return to the rest of your post later but where is the evidence for endemic ongoing corruption?0 -
That is, with all due respect, utter bull****. Are honestly you trying to say that the electorate in North Tipp are unaware of Lowry’s dodgy past?KyussBishop wrote: »Regarding blaming the Irish people, posted this on another thread:KyussBishop wrote:Without a functioning source of unrestrained information and decent investigative journalism, the population can't be kept informed, and can't really do a whole lot about government corruption they're unaware of.
Reports of backhanders, property rezoning fraud, nepotism etc. etc. are confined to anecdotal, unsubstantiated pub talk, and not being broadcast to the population at large like they should be.
What has the final report from the Mahon tribunal told us that we didn’t already know? For example, in late 2006, Bertie admitted to receiving various unsolicited payments – it was widely publicised. You cannot tell me the electorate was unaware of this when he was re-elected in 2007 and again in 2011.KyussBishop wrote: »To me, it seems a pretty apt way of venting public anger and bringing greater public attention to various issues, particularly in light of the final Mahon report, and the endemic ongoing corruption and mismanagement.
Tribunal after tribunal after tribunal has shown up the culture of corruption in Irish politics (and nobody is going to convince me that these tribunals are not well-covered by the media), but the electorate keep returning the same guys to the Dáil time and time again.0 -
Those earning over 200k per year should stop paying tax, including from any businesses they run, in solidarity. Actually hopefully not..... Of course anyone earning over 200k but deciding they don't want to pay a particular tax would be subject of the mob's ire rather than the mob's sympathy.0
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Yes, yes, yes, we know, everything was the fault of the bankers and politicians and they should be made pay for everything.
Someone, please, change the record.
All of which is completely irrelevant. Ireland is spending more than it is receiving in income. End of story.
I wish somebody would change the record, but it seems the latest DJ is playing the same old tune. The last government didn't chase after the architects of our collapse and the current government aren't going to either, but they will chase after the ordinary man and woman.
As for the statement that the fact that 'almost every other country has a form of property tax' is completely irrelevant, I would say that it is being made relevant by being used at every possible opportunity by those defending the Household Charge, to justify its introduction. If it is truly irrelevant what other countries are doing, then why do they bring it up to support their argument, I could just as easily bring up the fact that these other countries don't have Vehicle Registration Tax, to claim that we shouldn't have it either. Only the pro Household Charge advocates have sought to introduce what happens in other countries into the discussion.0 -
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Well we are not going to get any if Phil Hogan just stops any real investigation into County Councils. Afraid of what he may find?
The use of the word endemic suggests that it is prevalent across all of society in Ireland. Suggestions that 5 out of 33 county councils may have some planning applications that were dealt with incorrectly or corruptly is not equivalent to saying that corruption is endemic.0 -
KyussBishop wrote: »Additionally, while there is a societal influence that allows much of this mismanagement and corruption in government, it is completely disingenuous to say or imply that this is the fault of the Irish people.
Without a functioning source of unrestrained information and decent investigative journalism, the population can't be kept informed, and can't really do a whole lot about government corruption they're unaware of.
Reports of backhanders, property rezoning fraud, nepotism etc. etc. are confined to anecdotal, unsubstantiated pub talk, and not being broadcast to the population at large like they should be.
That is not the fault of the populous, and blaming it on the Irish people without opposition, opens up a lot of other disingenuous arguments that e.g. Irish people deserve what they get, are at fault for their own suffering, and various other ridiculous arguments like that.
Sorry but I'm not buying your argument at all. The really amazing thing is Fianna Fail did pretty much tell people exactly what they were going to do. For the most part they did those things. The problem is the majority of the Irish people didn't ask any questions nor did they stop to consider the consequences. Worse still people had a very good idea FF were corrupt and often inept but they still voted for them. So yes we do deserve what we got.KyussBishop wrote: »It's a very peculiar thing to be honest, that there is that kind of accepted nationalistic self-loathing in Ireland; I don't understand that at all, and it is highly in the governments interest to promote that (can't think of anyone else who can gain from it), so it kind of baffles me how it is accepted uncritically.
We do have a self-loathing in this country, a leftover from empire I'd safely say. But the bigger issue here is another thing that's probably also left over from empire, a love of people who get one over on 'the man'. Unfortunately for us we're now doing it to ourselves and not to the British.KyussBishop wrote: »As for the Household Tax boycott, right now it is the most effective way for the Irish people to protest; protesting just involves a certain level of inaction rather than action (e.g. going to a protest march), which is the easiest way to protest, and it's pretty roundly putting pressure on government.
Sorry but it's really not. We have an unsustainable tax base from the populist policies of mostly FF. So we can try to punish the government all we want for whatever ill we think they are responsible for, but it won't change the reality. I've called people out on the reasons they won't pay the household charge and they just switched to a different crappy reason. It's not very convincing.KyussBishop wrote: »To me, it seems a pretty apt way of venting public anger and bringing greater public attention to various issues, particularly in light of the final Mahon report, and the endemic ongoing corruption and mismanagement.
As I keep saying corruption and inefficiency was far worse but hardly anyone protested. Nor did they protest about the large amounts of stamp duty they were paying. But now they realise the consequences of just what they were really voting for all those years they want to protest. Too little and too late.KyussBishop wrote: »Most people will pay up in the end, but in the meantime, it is a very effective method of protest and raising (much needed) dissatisfaction with government.
I've spent quite a considerable amount of time listening to anti-household charge protesters. And if the campaign was about making the government more efficient in a meaningful and sensible way I'd support it. But most the the reasons involve shouting about banks and other myths that people think are happening. They usually do not address at all how we save 14 billion this year alone. They usually will not listen even when it's shown to them that in fact most of the money we're borrowing is not for the banks. So to me this protest is the same populist rubbish which got FF elected repeatedly and I truly hate that.0 -
When someone doesn't quote you I think you can assume they are in agreement with what you are saying or acknowledge that there is simply a difference of opinion, or feel that there would be no relevance to the point at hand.It might be easier to understand if you used my full post rather than quoting selectively from it.
Yes, I don't deny savings being made with respect to the VECs. Great. But I was talking about something a lot broader: namely county, city, town and borough councils.You don't quote this first part of my post so I take it you are in full agreement with this statement.
Sorry, but this is a rant. I have no idea where it's come from. I'm not anti public sector, you'd have to trawl through an awful lot of my posts to find the last time I complained about someone in the public sector. I have no interest in criticisng or defending public sector workers whatsoever.You see the very next sentence of my post mentioned "councils" but you chose to leave it out making the snide comment that you were talking about local government. It also allowed you (like many posters on here) to continue pontificating from on high about how they would use their crayons to reorganise the public service and ignore the realities that such change is rarely achived overnight and requires co-operation from those on the ground. "Smash the unions" sounds good from behind a computer keyboard or typing on a smartphone but the reality for public service management is how do you juggle maintaining and improving services, cutting costs, placating staff and at the same time undergoing major organisational change while at the same time you have politicians who will mouth that they are in favour of change yet resist it all the way.
I'm not interested in this public vs private sector divide quite frankly. If you want to get into a trench about it, do it with someone else. I'm talking about cuts to public expenditure on a broad basis in this thread, including welfare, because it's an economically wiser route to take to consolidation. The local government issue just has more resonance because the subject of the thread is essentially a local government charge.
I'm not saying they do or don't. I'm saying that short term costs might well arise. That's not a serious justification for maintaining such a high number of public bodies relative to the country's size.Find me a private sector publicly quoted company that has undergone amalgamation without incurring significant one-off exceptional charges
Bizarre.Maybe it does take Einstein to understand my posts.0 -
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