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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #7982
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    smash wrote: »
    Perhaps you hadn't noticed but I asked what services they're actually providing that we're not already paying for and why they need extra money.
    The services they're currently providing are the ones they need extra money for. We don't have enough money to cover our existing costs, this isn't an exercise in profit-making.
    I'm not talking about the public service bill. Most services in my area are with private companies that I pay for from my post tax income.
    You are talking about the public service bill.

    Unfortunately your private costs only fund very immediate services. They don't fund services in the wider jurisdiction of which you are a part.

    I live in a managed development, so I too also pay a significant chunk of money to private companies to maintain facilities in my immediate locality. But I'm also living in the SDCC area, and however much or little I use them, there are SDCC facilities which I have access to and which need to be maintained.
    I would oppose paying a household charge if I never left my estate and never used water from the public mains.


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    #7983
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    seamus wrote: »
    The services they're currently providing are the ones they need extra money for. We don't have enough money to cover our existing costs, this isn't an exercise in profit-making.
    You are talking about the public service bill.

    Unfortunately your private costs only fund very immediate services. They don't fund services in the wider jurisdiction of which you are a part.

    I live in a managed development, so I too also pay a significant chunk of money to private companies to maintain facilities in my immediate locality. But I'm also living in the SDCC area, and however much or little I use them, there are SDCC facilities which I have access to and which need to be maintained.
    I would oppose paying a household charge if I never left my estate and never used water from the public mains.

    So you agree that rural dwellers with private water supplies should be exempt.


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    #7984
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    mconigol wrote: »
    So you agree that rural dwellers with private water supplies should be exempt.
    If they never leave their homes, ever. Yes.


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    #7985
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    seamus wrote: »
    If they never leave their homes, ever. Yes.

    Well you just said you would be against it if you never left your estate and didn't use public water.

    Rural dwellers don't live in estates.

    Likewise they don't have access to any of the services available to lucky people who do live in estates.


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    #7986
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    seamus wrote: »
    I would oppose paying a household charge if I never left my estate and never used water from the public mains.

    So the only service you can think of is water then? Because there's a separate charge coming in for that next year!


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    #7987
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    stevenmu wrote: »
    It's not strange at all. The government used to make a ton of money from stamp duty on house and property sales, rezoning levies and lots of other stuff associated with the property boom. This money funded a lot of things, including being distributed to the councils to pay for all the services they provide.

    When the property market collapsed all of that income disappeared. People aren't willing to give up the services, so the money to pay for them has to come from somewhere.

    You seriously believe that? Did we see a sudden huge increase in public parks during the boom that we can't afford now?


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    #7988
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    smash wrote: »
    So the only service you can think of is water then? Because there's a separate charge coming in for that next year!

    Soon there'll be a seperate charge for everything. Forget about income tax, vat and other taxes. I think the government are looking at what they provide to the public, and if it doesnt have a tax named after it, it will soon.


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    #7989
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    Soon there'll be a seperate charge for everything. Forget about income tax, vat and other taxes. I think the government are looking at what they provide to the public, and if it doesnt have a tax named after it, it will soon.
    So when do you think it should stop then? When do you think people should just say no?

    By looking at it right now with the results of this property tax, people are putting their foot down!


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    #7990
    j3r0me
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭j3r0me


    The government are taking back anything that they seemingly "provide", and charging for the perceived service then. Ahhhh, we can discuss the technicalities of it till the cows come home, all I can do is decide I won't be paying it and depend on people like Mick Wallace to express my reasons. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmAw0ueUxbs&list=PL0DFB1476BD0C208F&index=1&feature=plcp


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    #7991
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    mconigol wrote: »
    Well you just said you would be against it if you never left your estate and didn't use public water.

    Rural dwellers don't live in estates.

    Likewise they don't have access to any of the services available to lucky people who do live in estates.
    smash wrote: »
    So the only service you can think of is water then? Because there's a separate charge coming in for that next year!
    Wow, two people who managed to miss the point so massively. If I didn't leave my estate, the only public service I would be consuming is water.

    Once I step outside of the estate, suddenly there are roads, paths, grass verges, street lighting, parks and a hundred thousands other little things which wouldn't exist if everybody just looked after themselves.

    So in order to ethically claim you shouldn't pay, you would have to consume no public services, which means not leaving your property (and not having anyone access it either, in reality).


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    #7992
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    You seriously believe that? Did we see a sudden huge increase in public parks during the boom that we can't afford now?

    Maybe, maybe not but we did see a massively improved road network during the boom more social housing constructed than before or since.


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    #7993
    crusher000
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    alastair wrote: »
    You own the house now. Ulster bank has a lien on the house to secure the mortgage. They don't own the house.


    Great so they can't take it off me . :rolleyes:


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    #7994
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    smash wrote: »
    So when do you think it should stop then? When do you think people should just say no?

    By looking at it right now with the results of this property tax, people are putting their foot down!

    No surprise, there's 100's of thousands of middle and working class people that are sick of paying for the mistakes of others.


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    #7995
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    keithob wrote: »
    What is the Sinn Féin stance on the House Hold Charge?

    Who cares


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    #7996
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    smash wrote: »
    I'd love a breakdown of the "services" that the councils provide and how they're currently funded. Because as far as I'm aware, they're currently funded through our taxes. So why exactly do they need the extra money?
    Don't forget rates. Which is a figure the council pull out of their arse.


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    #7997
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    Don't forget rates. Which is a figure the council pull out of their arse.

    Indeed. And for which business (and from next years householders) get nothing in return.

    Ones to ponder:

    1. We are currently paying for our refuse collection.

    2. Water rates will be introduced next year.

    3. The Fire Department charges for callouts.

    4. The HSE charge for EVERYTHING.

    Can someone explain WHAT precisely these local services are, for which we are being asked to contribute €100 per year? Is the money going to pay for admin, the majority of which is now conducted electronically?


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    #7998
    howamidifferent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭howamidifferent


    iPhones for councillers...

    8000 posts!


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    #7999
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Indeed. And for which business (and from next years householders) get nothing in return.

    Ones to ponder:

    1. We are currently paying for our refuse collection.

    2. Water rates will be introduced next year.

    3. The Fire Department charges for callouts.

    4. The HSE charge for EVERYTHING.

    Can someone explain WHAT precisely these local services are for which we are being asked to contribute €100 per year? Is the money going to pay for admin, the majority of which is now conducted electronically?
    1. Streetlighting
    2. Streetcleaning
    3. Parks and playgrounds
    4. Library services including mobile Libraries.
    5. Public area landscaping.
    7.road and footpath maintainance.
    etc...
    And before anyone tells me "We already pay for these", actually we dont, we pay towards them but the arguement is we dont pay enough , it's a bit like going into a shop and expecting €50 worth of goods for €70, paying towards does not equal paying for.
    that said I still believe that what is needed is a fundemental reform of the whole tax system to make it fit for the 21st century and an end to public service and administrative waste.


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    #8000
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    lividduck wrote: »
    1. Streetlighting
    2. Streetcleaning
    3. Parks and playgrounds
    4. Library services including mobile Libraries.
    5. Public area landscaping.
    7.road and footpath maintainance.
    etc...
    And before anyone tells me "We already pay for these", actually we dont, we pay towards them but the arguement is we dont pay enough , it's a bit like going into a shop and expecting €50 worth of goods for €70, paying towards does not equal paying for.
    that said I still believe that what is needed is a fundemental reform of the whole tax system to make it fit for the 21st century and an end to public service and administrative waste.
    How did we pay for these before though? Lets be honest, we're paying towards the countrys debt, thanks to the mismanagement of the economy by the previous government. Don't give us this public park and mobile libraries crap.


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    #8001
    Newaglish
    Registered Users Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭Newaglish


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    lividduck wrote: »
    1. Streetlighting
    2. Streetcleaning
    3. Parks and playgrounds
    4. Library services including mobile Libraries.
    5. Public area landscaping.
    7.road and footpath maintainance.
    etc...
    And before anyone tells me "We already pay for these", actually we dont, we pay towards them but the arguement is we dont pay enough , it's a bit like going into a shop and expecting €50 worth of goods for €70, paying towards does not equal paying for.
    that said I still believe that what is needed is a fundemental reform of the whole tax system to make it fit for the 21st century and an end to public service and administrative waste.
    How did we pay for these before though? Lets be honest, we're paying towards the countrys debt, thanks to the mismanagement of the economy by the previous government. Don't give us this public park and mobile libraries crap.

    I'm not sure if you noticed but we are running a deficit in this country, our tax take is about 15bn less than our income per annum.


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    #8002
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Who cares

    Well as they are now the second largest party in Ireland, I'd say quite a lot of people Donal.

    Official Figures......


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    #8003
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Newaglish wrote: »
    I'm not sure if you noticed but we are running a deficit in this country, our tax take is about 15bn less than our income per annum.

    So tackle the causes of it: high public sector wages & "entitlements" and an overly-generous SW system which is being widely abused.


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    #8004
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    seamus wrote: »
    Wow, two people who managed to miss the point so massively. If I didn't leave my estate, the only public service I would be consuming is water.

    Once I step outside of the estate, suddenly there are roads, paths, grass verges, street lighting, parks and a hundred thousands other little things which wouldn't exist if everybody just looked after themselves.

    So in order to ethically claim you shouldn't pay, you would have to consume no public services, which means not leaving your property (and not having anyone access it either, in reality).

    Not really.

    If you live in a town (or estate) you have access to public water supplies, footpaths, street lighting, parks and a thousand other things.

    If you live in the countryside you generally don't. Mostly all you have is a poorly maintained road.

    Would you agree that rural dwellers do not consume and do not have the opportunity to consume these services to the same extent as urban dwellers?

    Edit: Also the charge is not to pay for ALL public services, just to pay for some or to contribute more money for the same. At least I hope the plan isn't to spend only €200 million on public services for the entire country next year. People also pay other taxes which go into the public service provision pot.


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    #8005
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    lividduck wrote: »
    1. Streetlighting
    2. Streetcleaning
    3. Parks and playgrounds
    4. Library services including mobile Libraries.
    5. Public area landscaping.
    7.road and footpath maintainance.
    etc...
    And before anyone tells me "We already pay for these", actually we dont, we pay towards them but the arguement is we dont pay enough , it's a bit like going into a shop and expecting €50 worth of goods for €70, paying towards does not equal paying for.
    that said I still believe that what is needed is a fundemental reform of the whole tax system to make it fit for the 21st century and an end to public service and administrative waste.

    Reality is, though, that these were already being paid for, and the money is being used to pay off banking debt, while support a lavish Public sector and SW system, so the money is going towards.......banking debt.

    Street cleaning? I can live without it.

    Parks? Likewise.

    Public area landscaping - give me a break.

    Library services. Of no use - given the proliferation of the internet.

    Road and footpath maintenance? Equally - give me a break. Have you seen the state of footpaths - and not just lately.

    The reality is that we are living beyond our means. And the solution is not to tax the already heavily-burdened taxpayer - but to tackle the root causes.


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    #8006
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    mconigol wrote: »
    Would you agree that rural dwellers do not consume and do not have the opportunity to consume these services to the same extent as urban dwellers?
    No disagreement in general, but I know your next idea to dispute whether a flat-rate charge is fair.

    There is an argument that density plays a part. If you have a density of (say) 250 homes/sq.km., then that council will bring in €25,000/sq.km. from this charge, allowing scope to maintain facilities in that square kilometre to the tune of €25,000 per year.
    On the other hand a rural council may have 10 properties per sq.km. (probably actually way too big a figure), giving them €1,000 per square kilometre and therefore giving them scope to do very little but the most basic maintenance in that area.

    The rural dwellers will always have the freedom to attend more urban areas and make use of the facilities for free, so it evens out across all areas.

    €100 is the most basic charge possible, and while I don't disagree with the concept of equity in this regard, if we were all paying our "fair share", we'd all be paying a whole lot more than €100/year, so I see no reason to dispute it on the fairness basis.


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    #8007
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    mconigol wrote: »
    Not really.

    If you live in a town (or estate) you have access to public water supplies, footpaths, street lighting, parks and a thousand other things.

    If you live in the countryside you generally don't. Mostly all you have is a poorly maintained road.

    Would you agree that rural dwellers do not consume and do not have the opportunity to consume these services to the same extent as urban dwellers?

    I would - and I live in a City. The Government rolled out some junior Minister on the Late Late last week. It was truly pathetic to watch. Given that Enda or Happy Gilmore don't have the balls to do it themselves.

    http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1141910

    Watch at 00:25:25


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    #8008
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    From householdcharge.ie:

    These services are essential to your community.

    They include:

    fire and emergency services; - who charge for their services accordingly

    maintenance and cleaning of streets; - we can live without this as very little is done anyway.

    planning and development; - my hole. Who charge through the teeth.

    public parks; - likewise we can do without these.

    street lighting; - OK necessary service.

    libraries; - overtaken by technology.

    open spaces - my hole; again.

    leisure amenities. - and these would be?

    These facilities benefit everyone. - no they don't.


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    #8009
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    For anyone that didnt see it already.
    Fast forward to 25 mins or so

    http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1141910


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    #8010
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Well as they are now the second largest party in Ireland, I'd say quite a lot of people Donal.

    Official Figures......

    Ah I wouldnt think too many care about their stance, sure arent they the opposition so their stance is pretty much predetermined anyway. As for where they actually stand well who knows, as they would need to be in power first. Something which should be relatively easy for them to do if they are the second largest party in Ireland


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    #8011
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Not paying, wont pay, and will not pay penalties, thats me sorted, and they can take me to court if they wish, I won't be going either! I predict that this charge (registration fee) will befall the same fate as the Poll Tax in Britain and as such will be abandoned, (that is, if enough people hold fast and don't give in to the mounting pressure). As of today less than 30% of Irish house holders have paid, lets hope it stays that way to the end of the week.


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