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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #5822
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    National Rally
    line
    There is a National Rally of the Campaign on March 24th, in the National Stadium on the South Circular Rd, Dublin. It is open to all, and there will be buses coming from right across the country. This Assembly will bring together the campaign right across the country, and launch the final push before the registration deadline. Make sure to be there!


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    #5823
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Ghandee wrote: »
    I'll give mine towards the upkeep of my estates greenery and shrubbery yearly fee, that the council don't tend to thanks very much (if I ever get it back, its now almost April and I've yet to see this refund)

    Sounds posh ;)
    Ghandee wrote: »
    They bought at a price they could afford at the time your quite right though, no one forced them, but bar property speculators, most people bought with the intention of having a family home, not an investment, perhaps some now, give years down the line have a few kids, and have out grown their start up homes?

    I made reference to Meath, simply because to buy in Dublin was simply out of the question to some, due to the over inflated prices in the capital at the time.

    Renting was the alternative.
    demanufactured wrote: »
    National Rally
    line
    There is a National Rally of the Campaign on March 24th, in the National Stadium on the South Circular Rd, Dublin. It is open to all, and there will be buses coming from right across the country. This Assembly will bring together the campaign right across the country, and launch the final push before the registration deadline. Make sure to be there!

    How many will turn up? As the no side proclaim 85% refusal to pay, expect hundreds of thousands at least to appear at the rally?


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    #5824
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    mconigol wrote: »
    Don't be so sure.

    This is even more certain than death or taxes - the numbers don't support an ability to repay in any possible scenario.

    I wasn't saying you were looney left but that's the impression somebody who suggests it would be enjoyable to see the Taoiseach get shot is not going to be considered centrist I'm afraid to tell you.

    How about extreme looney centrist? I can appreciate the entertainment value of stringing up a dictator even while doing the mundane work of trying to defeat the dictatorship :cool:

    We need to get serious about the recent destruction of Irish democracy; it is no trivial matter and undermines the moral and legal legitimacy that supports the State.

    We see this happening across the globe.

    Don't try and pretend that getting to scribble a vote once in five years; on a matter of existential importance in the case of the last election - which is then simply ignored by the political establishment - is "democracy".

    Russia's democracy is much more legitimate (in terms of the Regime representing the people) than ours.

    So let's not be too precious about our own illegitimate rulers.


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    #5825
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    This is even more certain than death or taxes - the numbers don't support an ability to repay in any possible scenario.




    How about extreme looney centrist? I can appreciate the entertainment value of stringing up a dictator even while doing the mundane work of trying to defeat the dictatorship :cool:

    We need to get serious about the recent destruction of Irish democracy; it is no trivial matter and undermines the moral and legal legitimacy that supports the State.

    We see this happening across the globe.

    Don't try and pretend that getting to scribble a vote once in five years; on a matter of existential importance in the case of the last election - which is then simply ignored by the political establishment - is "democracy".

    Russia's democracy is much more legitimate (in terms of the Regime representing the people) than ours.

    So let's not be too precious about our own illegitimate rulers.

    The turkeys voted for Christmas. There's nothing recent about it. The majority of the population continually voted in FF and have to accept the consequences of those actions now.

    In hindsight people may not like the decisions successive coalition governments made however at the time they were more than happy to send them back in for consecutive terms. If that is not an endorsement of the policies and principles of the people who made the decisions which brought the country to its current juncture I don't know what is.

    This rubbish that all of a sudden the country was being ruled undemocratically needs to be banished because it's simply not true. The signs were there, they weren't subtle.

    A large part of the population hold responsibility for electing these officials. They could have chose not to but they didn't.


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    #5826
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    mconigol wrote: »
    The turkeys voted for Christmas. There's nothing recent about it. The majority of the population continually voted in FF and have to accept the consequences of those actions now.

    Completely irrelevant to the point I'm making.
    Last year we voted to destroy FF and replace it with parties who would "burn the bondholders".
    Instead we got FF policy as if they had been re-elected.
    That is NOT democracy; we get another chance in 4 years when the exact same thing could happen again. That is NOT democracy.
    This rubbish that all of a sudden the country was being ruled undemocratically needs to be banished because it's simply not true.

    It is not rubbish - what I outlined above is a simple fact. We were voting on an existential issue and the political establishment ignored the electorate. Democracy in the EU is in crisis. You can ignore the facts - but that won't make them go away; nor will it remove the need to call those who have usurped democracy to serious account.

    After the bail-out collapses most likely - thus the sooner it comes the better for both economic recovery and for democracy. :cool:

    If something needs to be "banished" it is denial of the death of democracy in Ireland and other parts of Western Europe.


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    #5827
    CajunOnTour
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭CajunOnTour


    Wild Bill wrote: »

    It is not rubbish - what I outlined above is a simple fact. We were voting on an existential issue and the political establishment ignored the electorate. Democracy in the EU is in crisis. You can ignore the facts - but that won't make them go away; nor will it remove the need to call those who have usurped democracy to serious account.

    After the bail-out collapses most likely - thus the sooner it comes the better for both economic recovery and for democracy. :cool:

    If something needs to be "banished" it is denial of the death of democracy in Ireland and other parts of Western Europe.

    Democracy in Ireland maybe isn't dead, yet - but it's legitimacy has taken a serious knock after the last election.


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    #5828
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Completely irrelevant to the point I'm making.
    Last year we voted to destroy FF and replace it with parties who would "burn the bondholders".
    Instead we got FF policy as if they had been re-elected.
    That is NOT democracy; we get another chance in 4 years when the exact same thing could happen again. That is NOT democracy.



    It is not rubbish - what I outlined above is a simple fact. We were voting on an existential issue and the political establishment ignored the electorate. Democracy in the EU is in crisis. You can ignore the facts - but that won't make them go away; nor will it remove the need to call those who have usurped democracy to serious account.

    After the bail-out collapses most likely - thus the sooner it comes the better for both economic recovery and for democracy. :cool:

    If something needs to be "banished" it is denial of the death of democracy in Ireland and other parts of Western Europe.


    What do you think would happen exactly after we burn the bondholders?

    I suppose the people who are lending us the money to fund the day to day running of the state would just shrug their shoulders and say, 'fair enough'.

    People like you don't have a clue about the logical consequences for this country for the course of action you outline.

    A collapse in the bailout which you so fervently wish for will make the household charge look like the Teddy Bears picnic.

    The only people who will benefit in such a scenario is the loony left (most of whom seem to have joined in the anti-property tax cheerleading in the last few days), who sniff the opportunity to tap into people's disaffection and make a grab for power.

    Gold help us if they get it.


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    #5829
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    demanufactured wrote: »
    DONT REGISTER, DONT PAY!

    Don't register, pay later.

    That's about the extent of it. Regardless what number are registered in time, this tax is happening. They have the will, the means, and the need.


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    #5830
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,823 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    alastair wrote: »
    Don't register, pay later.

    That's about the extent of it. Regardless what number are registered in time, this tax is happening. They have the will, the means, and the need.

    To be honest, i don't think anyone is really disputing that it will have to be paid at some stage, but it's the flat tax with no guarantee that it won't increase that people are saying no to. If the Government was to sit down and make a tax which is fair and taxes wealth rather than ownership, then i can't see who would have an issue.

    Until that day, or until i get a personalised bill outlining what the charge is for and what services i'm getting for it, i won't be paying.


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    #5831
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    To be honest, i don't think anyone is really disputing that it will have to be paid at some stage, but it's the flat tax with no guarantee that it won't increase that people are saying no to. If the Government was to sit down and make a tax which is fair and taxes wealth rather than ownership, then i can't see who would have an issue.

    Until that day, or until i get a personalised bill outlining what the charge is for and what services i'm getting for it, i won't be paying.

    There's more than enough people posting here who clearly don't like the proposed (higher) tiered payments, rather than the short gap flat €100. I don't think the main concern is the flat tax aspect of it. Personally I'm opposed to flat taxes, but the reality is that €100 is small enough that it doesn't pose any real moral problem, and I'm not going to assume that they'll banjax the tiered system until/unless they do (at which point I'll campaign to revise the system).

    Most people objecting in this thread just don't want to pay any more taxes. And it's worth repeating that this just isn't going to happen. Increased taxation is part of digging ourselves out of this mess. Stamp duty windfalls are a thing of the past.


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    #5832
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    To be honest, i don't think anyone is really disputing that it will have to be paid at some stage, but it's the flat tax with no guarantee that it won't increase that people are saying no to. .

    There's no guarantee that any tax won't increase in the future, in fact I'll pretty much guarantee that they all will increase.

    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    If the Government was to sit down and make a tax which is fair and taxes wealth rather than ownership, then i can't see who would have an issue. .

    So as long as they tax someone else you're in favour of new taxes.

    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    Until that day, or until i get a personalised bill outlining what the charge is for and what services i'm getting for it, i won't be paying.

    Yep, we should look at increasing numbers in the ps so we can provide every citizen with a personalised bill.

    Maybe we could introduce a new tax to fund this?


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    #5833
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    black francis wrote: »
    There's no guarantee that any tax won't increase in the future, in fact I'll pretty much guarantee that they all will increase.
    Obviously they will. We've been clearly told they will - no one disputes that.


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    #5834
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Taxing wealth is an incentive against making life better for oneself, like a tax on success. It will increase dependency on welfare.

    The govt should really withdraw part or all of Mortgage Interest Relief from those who receive it and refuse to pay, they have the database already via Revenue Commissioners.


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    #5835
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    To be honest, i don't think anyone is really disputing that it will have to be paid at some stage, but it's the flat tax with no guarantee that it won't increase that people are saying no to. If the Government was to sit down and make a tax which is fair and taxes wealth rather than ownership, then i can't see who would have an issue.

    Until that day, or until i get a personalised bill outlining what the charge is for and what services i'm getting for it, i won't be paying.


    Your telling that to the wrong poster. He firmly believes all home owners are wealthy. Look through the posts.


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    #5836
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gurramok wrote: »
    Taxing wealth is an incentive against making life better for oneself, like a tax on success. It will increase dependency on welfare.

    Well some of your associates believe taxing the family home is taxing wealth.


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    #5837
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Your telling that to the wrong poster. He firmly believes all home owners are wealthy. Look through the posts.

    I'm not sure if you've comprehension issues or are just obtuse, but you don't seem to understand that there's wealth in assets - and if you have a property with equity (and the vast majority of home owners are in this position) then you have the potential to liquidate that wealth. If you don't own your property you can't. Simple as that. I'm not a wealthy individual - far from it. But if I had to, I could sell my home and walk away with a nice profit - same as anyone else with equity in their home.


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    #5838
    jack67
    Registered Users Posts: 181 ✭✭jack67


    gurramok wrote: »
    Sounds posh ;)



    Renting was the alternative.



    How many will turn up? As the no side proclaim 85% refusal to pay, expect hundreds of thousands at least to appear at the rally?


    you sound like a really nice person:eek:


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    #5839
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm not sure if you've comprehension issues or are just obtuse, but you don't seem to understand that there's wealth in assets - and if you have a property with equity (and the vast majority of home owners are in this position) then you have the potential to liquidate that wealth. If you don't own your property you can't. Simple as that. I'm not a wealthy individual - far from it. But if I had to, I could sell my home and walk away with a nice profit - same as anyone else with equity in their home.

    You dont walk away with that profit tax free alastair.

    You are also forgetting, the equity in houses at current market value is there due to the owners repayments. Its there own money that is the equity. Does that also need to be explained?

    If they just saved them mortgage repayments in a bank, they would not pay 20% tax on withdrawing them.


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    #5840
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    You dont walk away with that profit tax free alastair.

    You are also forgetting, the equity in houses at current market value is there doe to the owners repayments. Its there own money that is the equity. Does that also need to be explained?

    If they just saved them mortgage repayments in a bank, they would not pay 20% tax on withdrawing them.

    And? It's still a profit. It's still wealth in equity.


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    #5841
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    And? It's still a profit. It's still wealth in equity.

    Owner buys house 200k.

    They pay off 30k in repayments.

    Equity 30k asuming house is at least equal to original price (optomistic)

    Sell house. Tax 6k. Owner gets 24k

    But they paid in 30k of their own money.

    If they saved 30k in an account, they pay nothing to withdraw it.


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    #5842
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Well some of your associates believe taxing the family home is taxing wealth.

    Who? I'm not a member of FG or Lab or some looney left party.
    jack67 wrote:
    you sound like a really nice person

    I am ;) I say it as it is, a realist :)


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    #5843
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gurramok wrote: »
    Who? I'm not a member of FG or Lab or some looney left party.

    Look 3 posts back.


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    #5844
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Owner buys house 200k.

    They pay off 30k in repayments.

    Equity 30k asuming house is at least equal to original price (optomistic)

    Sell house. Tax 6k. Owner gets 24k

    But they paid in 30k of their own money.

    If they saved 30k in an account, they pay nothing to withdraw it.

    If you're pitching that property isn't always the best investment then you'll get no argument here. But that's not really the point, is it?


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    #5845
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,823 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    black francis wrote: »
    There's no guarantee that any tax won't increase in the future, in fact I'll pretty much guarantee that they all will increase.

    That's what i was saying, the tax will increase so that's why there's stiff opposition to it, the uncertainty of what we will be paying in a couple of years coupled with the knowledge that it could go into the thousands if left unchecked and unchallenged.
    So as long as they tax someone else you're in favour of new taxes.

    So long as they tax fairly. I pay my taxes, nearly half and sometimes more than half of what i earn i pay in taxes. I'm not against taxes, i'm against unfair and unjustified taxes.
    Yep, we should look at increasing numbers in the ps so we can provide every citizen with a personalised bill.

    Maybe we could introduce a new tax to fund this?

    Do you regularly pay bills without actually getting a break down of the bill? I certainly don't. And if they want to introduce a new bill, then they ahve to explain and send the bill. Anyone who pays something without an invoice or agreed paperless direct debit is a fool. And if they don't have the facilites to create and send the bills, then they don't have a right to charge it.


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    #5846
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Snake Plisken wrote: »
    Is there potential even remotely to be hauled in front of the courts for non-payment? If not then I'm not paying!
    There is a possibility for you to be brought to court. The fine is between €1000 and €2500.

    Its a slim possibility imo. I'd say they would give you a final opportunity to pay up before going to court, but it is a possibility nonetheless.


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    #5847
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Look 3 posts back.

    Post number?


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    #5848
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    Do you regularly pay bills without actually getting a break down of the bill? I certainly don't.
    TV licence.
    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    And if they want to introduce a new bill, then they ahve to explain and send the bill. Anyone who pays something without an invoice or agreed paperless direct debit is a fool. And if they don't have the facilites to create and send the bills, then they don't have a right to charge it.

    They don't have to send a bill and they do have a right to charge it.
    If you think that the Household Charge is illegal, I'm afraid you have your head in the sand.


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    #5849
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    I'm not against taxes, i'm against unfair and unjustified taxes.

    What makes this particular tax any more unfair or unjust than, say, motor tax?


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    #5850
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    This is extraordinary but it appears from the response to a Dail question on 13 March that government Ministers don't have to pay the Household Tax. Here is the official Dail record of the response to a question about exemptions

    The Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 provides for a number of exemptions and waivers from payment of the household charge. The exemptions from payment of the household charge are -
    ...
    · Residential property owned by a Minister of the Government, a housing authority or the Health Service Executive,

    See http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/03/13/00247.asp for the full response


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    #5851
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    If you're pitching that property isn't always the best investment then you'll get no argument here.
    Im not pitching about investment. Im countering your cliam that equity = wealth. And your claims that thats whats being taxed.
    But that's not really the point, is it?

    You claimed home owners are wealthy. Thats False.

    You claimed there is equity in a home that has a bigger mortgage than market value. Thats True. But its negative.

    You now claim all houses with equity have wealth. It has been very clearly been pointed out to you that equity can = house price - repayments. But this is taxed if sold. So you believe in taxing the potential of selling the family home, and tax the actual equity as well, if sold. An equity that is likely brought about by the owners own money, in the current market.

    You hinted at it yourself, without realising it, by claiming negative equity owners will have positive equity soon, therefore,,, wealth. But this positive equity will come about by virtue of the owners own money reducing the lien.

    In my own house, there is equity of 20k maybe (although no one realy knows the value, people cant sell).

    I have however paid off 40k. So is 20k wealthy? Even though i paid back a principal amount of 40k? This means i have a 20k equity from 40k of input.

    So i dont see that as wealth. You of course, do.


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