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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #5282
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    zumi wrote: »
    They can pass all the legislation and laws they like, I will never pay house tax. They can put all the attachment orders they like and send every sherriff in the country. I'll gladly go to jail, and there will be plenty more like me. I pay plenty of tax as it is and the last thing the Government needs is more money to waste.
    I don't think you get it. An attachment order can involve a sheriff seizing goods, but it can also mean the money simply being transferred from your bank account or your employer taking it directly from your wages.

    There is no need for a sheriff and no jail. That's the beauty of it.


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    #5283
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    zumi wrote: »
    They can pass all the legislation and laws they like, I will never pay house tax. They can put all the attachment orders they like and send every sherriff in the country. I'll gladly go to jail, and there will be plenty more like me. I pay plenty of tax as it is and the last thing the Government needs is more money to waste.

    I'm betting you'll pay up well before the prospect of jail time - forum heroics notwithstanding.


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    #5284
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    dvpower wrote: »
    I don't think you get it. An attachment order can involve a sheriff seizing goods, but it can also mean the money simply being transferred from your bank account or your employer taking it directly from your wages.

    There is no need for a sheriff and no jail. That's the beauty of it.


    So have you googled yet??

    I dont think you get it...as you still havent answered me on FG/Labour climb down and u-turns when faced with people power and mass public anger.



    And it looks like you wont admit it either.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Endas arse must smell and taste nice,does it?


    PS-Do you know anything about a persons constitunional rights and their European rights too??

    Because you are talking absolute shyte in most of your avoiding meandering waffling posts

    You would do well on the FG front bench so.


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    #5285
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm betting you'll pay up well before the prospect of jail time - forum heroics notwithstanding.

    How many people will be facing jail time?
    Amazing cost to the state / tax payers if they were to jail even 5 % of defaulters.


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    #5286
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gurramok wrote: »
    Eh, how? Though your main argument was that it was a flat charge?

    Well unless the money comes out of the equity filled bricks alastair mentions, presumably it will be peoples income that pays it.


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    #5287
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    galwayrush wrote: »
    How many people will be facing jail time?
    Amazing cost to the state / tax payers if they were to jail even 5 % of defaulters.

    It isn't going to happen - no need in the majority of cases, and there's sod all evidence of any number of defaulters in any case. What makes you think there's any significant number of people prepared to ignore a summons? 5% of what?


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    #5288
    zumi
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭zumi


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm betting you'll pay up well before the prospect of jail time - forum heroics notwithstanding.

    Fair enough, I'll take that bet....


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    #5289
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Well unless the money comes out of the equity filled bricks alastair mentions, presumably it will be peoples income that pays it.

    All taxes come out of income in the final analysis - this one would be no different - it does have the advantage of not promoting a shift of revenue into the black economy, and of offering little scope of evasion.


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    #5290
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    zumi wrote: »
    Fair enough, I'll take that bet....

    Forum posturing - how unexpected!


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    #5291
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,507 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    galwayrush wrote: »
    How many people will be facing jail time?
    Amazing cost to the state / tax payers if they were to jail even 5 % of defaulters.

    I doubt anyone will go to jail. Very few on the Revenue Commissioners defaulters lists go to jail, they just finish up paying interest and penalties often much more than the orginal tax.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/2012/pr-130312-defaulters-list.html

    The Revenue Commissioners will probably go after people who owe this new tax as they are given a role in it by the legislation. They like doing revenue audits.

    local authority shall, at such intervals as the Revenue
    Commissioners may specify, provide the Revenue Commissioners
    with such information obtained by the local
    authority pursuant to this Act, including tax reference
    numbers, as the Revenue Commissioners may reasonably
    require for the purpose of enabling them to perform their
    functions under a specified enactment.


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    #5292
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Hey. Did a bit of research. Longford, where i live has a town mayor, county mayor and Granard, a 1 street glorified village has a mayor. All 3 offices have 'offices', secretaries and all the accompanying expenses, perks etc. Then you read about the head cook in BOI receiving 800 000 odd despite there being a cap on such salaries of 500 000.
    Explain again why any local or national authority need me to pay on the double for services????:confused:


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    #5293
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Hey. Did a bit of research. Longford, where i live has a town mayor, county mayor and Granard, a 1 street glorified village has a mayor. All 3 offices have 'offices', secretaries and all the accompanying expenses, perks etc. Then you read about the head cook in BOI receiving 800 000 odd despite there being a cap on such salaries of 500 000.
    Explain again why any local or national authority need me to pay on the double for services????:confused:

    Those figures are just absurd!
    And what about the amazing administrative doubling up of Tipperary north and south?

    Public money, however collected is very easily spent............

    Also a lot of talk about this tax going to provide local services, I already pay for mine, bin collection, motor tax and medical fees.

    Free education is a misnomer too.

    And I do not want to pay for the excesses mentioned above.


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    #5294
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    I doubt anyone will go to jail. Very few on the Revenue Commissioners defaulters lists go to jail, they just finish up paying interest and penalties often much more than the orginal tax.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/2012/pr-130312-defaulters-list.html

    The Revenue Commissioners will probably go after people who owe this new tax as they are given a role in it by the legislation. They like doing revenue audits.

    local authority shall, at such intervals as the Revenue
    Commissioners may specify, provide the Revenue Commissioners
    with such information obtained by the local
    authority pursuant to this Act, including tax reference
    numbers, as the Revenue Commissioners may reasonably
    require for the purpose of enabling them to perform their
    functions under a specified enactment.

    This is going to be a major deciding factor in whether to pay or not for those in business in any capacity, from a self employed electrician who needs a tax clearance cert to a corner shop owner.


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    #5295
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Going Forward wrote: »
    Those figures are just absurd!
    And what about the amazing administrative doubling up of Tipperary north and south?

    Public money, however collected is very easily spent............

    Also a lot of talk about this tax going to provide local services, I already pay for mine, bin collection, motor tax and medical fees.

    Free education is a misnomer too.

    And I do not want to pay for the excesses mentioned above.

    This is a major issue with me just now. My place of work has had a funding cut and may not last the year. The funding cut is slightly lower than the phone expenses paid to the county mayor for 2010. This is an employer of 8 and quite unique to the town and it may close for the equivalent of a councillors phone bill... and they want me to volunteer 100 euro. f.uck that


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    #5296
    The_Thing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭The_Thing


    Going Forward wrote: »
    Also a lot of talk about this tax going to provide local services, I already pay for mine, bin collection, motor tax and medical fees.

    Lies from the blue-shirted bastards, pure and simple.

    The money that would normally have been allocated to local authorities is being used to pay off bond holders and they want us to facilitate this by introducing a property tax.

    How those fcukers have the nerve to show their face in public after all the pre-election promises they made is beyond me.

    Here's one of the liars in action last year:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LTCT7QIeP8


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    #5297
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    This is a major issue with me just now. My place of work has had a funding cut and may not last the year. The funding cut is slightly lower than the phone expenses paid to the county mayor for 2010. This is an employer of 8 and quite unique to the town and it may close for the equivalent of a councillors phone bill... and they want me to volunteer 100 euro. f.uck that

    I would love to see the TOTAL accrued expenses (from ink to mileage, to dry cleaning, to make-up, coffee machines etc. etc.) from every county councillor, up to the taoiseach and ALL of those in between in one single figure.


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    #5298
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dvpower wrote: »
    The Revenue currently have the power to make an attachment order on the authorisation of a Principal Officer in the Collector General's office, without any court order. Its quite an inexpensive process..

    Do you have a link for this one?

    Because you seem to be contradicting yourself again.
    dvpower wrote: »
    Fines, interest and penalties. They've also said that they will be seeking legal costs for any court cases.

    Besides, I thought we had seperation between the government and our judicial system in the country.


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    #5299
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    The_Thing wrote: »
    Lies from the blue-shirted bastards, pure and simple.

    The money that would normally have been allocated to local authorities is being used to pay off bond holders and they want us to facilitate this by introducing a property tax.

    How those fcukers have the nerve to show their face in public after all the pre-election promises they made is beyond me.

    Gonna be great craic at the Fine Gael Ard Fheis
    They will need a five point plan to even get into the conference......
    There will also be a mass picket at the Fine Gael Ard Fheis in the Dublin Convention Centre on March 31st, more details to follow.

    http://nohouseholdtax.org/national-assembly-march-24th/


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    #5300
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    I give the local authorities great credit for the water infrastructure in Dundalk. From a situation where 100 year old installations meant water rationing every summer in the 1970's to what we have now. People turn on their taps and get unlimited free water without even thinking about it. And the waste water treatment facilities were upgraded also as you know.

    Where did the finances come from for this great work, it didn't happen over night, it has already been paid for. Without this new tax that "we need for local services".


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    #5301
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    mikom wrote: »
    Gonna be great craic at the Fine Gael Ard Fheis
    They will need a five point plan to even get into the conference......

    :D


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    #5302
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    black francis wrote: »
    Nothing to do with the budget deficit then?

    The budget deficit and the banking debt are two separate issues. If you bother reading the thread there are detailed replies. Not surprised you don't understand the difference though.:rolleyes:


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    #5303
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    There's no such thing here as road tax.

    You're copping on fast.:D


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    #5304
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    It's to do with an ongoing shortfall in tax revenues - bank bailout or no bank bailout. That the rest of the world generally see the benefits of property taxes is a pretty clear indication that it has some merit.

    "BENEFITS OF PROPERTY TAX".:rolleyes: Mods can we PLEASE have a facepalm icon? It has been explained to you - several times - the causes of this deficit. From your lack of response I can only assume that you are a FG/Lab activist - who, as usual, puts party propaganda before country.


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    #5305
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    Gosh - another conspiracy! Enda's agents are everywhere!

    Have you considered the possibility that some of us just see the need to sort out the revenue income gap, and the logic of a property tax as part of a sustainable new model?

    How about the logic of reducing public sector pay and the SW to a level which reflects what this country is actually able to afford without borrowing?


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    #5306
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,507 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Slick50 wrote: »
    Where did the finances come from for this great work, it didn't happen over night, it has already been paid for. Without this new tax that "we need for local services".

    The new supply from Lough Muckno in Co Monaghan cost IR£20 million in 1990 according to this report.

    http://www.argus.ie/news/no-relief-in-Swater-crux-2240163.html

    That would have to have been a special grant from central government. Since 1977 local authorities have had to depend much more on the Local Government Fund administered by central government following their loss of domestic rates.

    However, up until the mid 1970s at least, Local Authorities commanded greater discretion over their revenue generating capabilities. For instance, in 1976 local authorities generated sixty-two per cent of their revenues locally and were only dependent on government grants for thirty-eight per cent of their overall revenue. The situation changed dramatically following the removal of the onus of paying domestic rates, a liability which was transferred to central government. The subsequent decade witnessed a very high degree of reliance on central funding by local authorities. By 1982 local authorities were dependent on government funding for sixty-seven per cent of their revenue with other sources and rates making up thirty-three percent.

    This system was always going to leave local authorities short since central government were using the same sources of tax (mainly PAYE) for all other spending as well. Which led to local authorities having to introduce bin charges which eventually led to the privitisation of waste collection. The failed water charges of the 1990's were another attempt to plug the expenditure gap.

    The Household Charge will go into the Local Government Fund so you could say it is ringfenced from the bankers. But other moneys which would have gone into the Fund may now go to the bankers so that potentially makes all taxation unjust and unfair (if paying bankers and bondholders is the criterion).

    Regardless of the bankers, spending exceeds taxation and necessitates borrowing. So a new tax which for years ahead will produce a guaranteed stream of income will help to narrow the gap. On the expenditure side one of the big ticket items is Child Benefit. Most likely some of the people here complaining about having to pay €100 are getting €1700 tax free for each of their children. That could be done away with or reduced to achieve considerable savings.


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    #5307
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    "BENEFITS OF PROPERTY TAX".:rolleyes: Mods can we PLEASE have a facepalm icon? It has been explained to you - several times - the causes of this deficit. From your lack of response I can only assume that you are a FG/Lab activist - who, as usual, puts party propaganda before country.

    Assume away. It's just another notch on your 'doesn't really get it' belt.
    Property taxation, properly configured, is a progressive and sustainable model for revenue - just the kind of thing we need to get the country on a solid footing. Entertain yourself with delusions of cutting the dole and PS payments down to poverty levels, but that won't actually help matters.


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    #5308
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    You're copping on fast.:D

    To the fact you don't know what you're talking about? 'Road Tax'?


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    #5309
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    Assume away. It's just another notch on your 'doesn't really get it' belt.
    Property taxation, properly configured, is a progressive and sustainable model for revenue - just the kind of thing we need to get the country on a solid footing. Entertain yourself with delusions of cutting the dole and PS payments down to poverty levels, but that won't actually help matters.

    And your support of the notion to tax already shrinking wage packets is better? sweet Jesus. OK - you are in charge of a household budget. You are earning €32k a year, but you're spending €50k a year. You're borrowing €18k every year. And into the bargain two lads down the road backed a horse which lost, and YOU are handed the debt?

    Are you beginning to grasp this now? The 'delusion', as you put it, of 'cutting the dole and PS payments to poverty levels' show how out of touch you and people like you actually are.

    That delusion will soon become a reality. Do you really think the Troika are in the business of keeping Irish PS pay levels and dole way above what is paid elsewhere?:rolleyes:

    For example, Spain, (with 10 times our population), limited the amount paid to the heads of state bodies to a maximum of €105k. Now, some of the dimwits in Dail Eireann are earning more than that. And we paid the head of a defunct bank €803k last year. FFS it is truly stupidity of the highest order. We reward people for failure.

    Do you REALLY believe that we are that high up on their list of priorities? It matters little how many do or do not pay this immoral tax. It is a pin prick; as will rates be.

    There is no doubt that this will come crashing down around us. And it will be soon. Economic forces will dictate it. This is a certainty.

    And yet, people like yourself just want to see a gravy train continue, indeed actually support it. Is it any wonder this country is in the state that it is in?


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    #5310
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    To the fact you don't know what you're talking about? 'Road Tax'?

    You can be as pedantic as you like, but it changes nothing. Slip back under the sand there now.:)


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    #5311
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Regardless of the bankers, spending exceeds taxation and necessitates borrowing.

    We cannot borrow forever. That is the one certainty here.


This discussion has been closed.
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