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Connor Murray - Kidney's new TOL?

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    #122
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Higher wrote: »
    Its not deliberately inflammatory its a valid point. The same arguments are being made for Murrays continued inclusion that used to be made for TOL i.e hes physical, he can make a break, hes like an extra backrower, we need him for defense. Its all a load of ****e.

    I wont bother responding to the rest of your statement.

    I'm with the general arguement, but the title is unnecessarily inflammatory, we aren't basing this assumption of very much, give the guy a chance.


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    #123
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    When exactly has Sexton played horribly? He has kicked poorly, but his play has generally been superior.

    "an outhalf's job is to kick goals"

    That's why Chris Patterson was the last Lions 10


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    #124
    Benny Cake
    Registered Users Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭Benny Cake


    Tox56 wrote: »
    I'm with the general arguement, but the title is unnecessarily inflammatory, we aren't basing this assumption of very much, give the guy a chance.

    My point exactly. Had the thread been titled "Who should start at 9 v France" there's no issue...


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    #125
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    MungBean wrote: »
    So its either play the full 80 or dont play at all ? There are such things as substitutions you know. If there going to be rotation you rotate the bench and release players back to the provinces to get game time if they are not match fit. You dont start them in crucial matches to get their match fitness for god sake.

    Personally I'd have Murray on the bench for Scotland and Italy and Reddan and Boss for all others.

    How does he cope with Healy, Ross, Heaslip, SOB, Darcy, Kearney all starting every competitive match ? Ideally they would have had a break week next week where some could rest and others would get game time with the provinces. But due to the French game being cancelled thats out the window. The entire team cant be rotated, rotation isnt an option at this level against these teams if you want any chance of winning.

    they can't let players back to their provinces to play because they are needed for the bench or do you think Omahoney should have played for Munster on friday and sat on the bench on saturday just in case someone got injured, because if they don't get gametime, if they are needed they won't be match fit.

    and i do feel for healy & ross (mostly ross, healy is being subbed (rotated;)) for court. he is going to be shattered when he gets back to leinster. paul o'connell will also have played that kind of time. the rest should have been subbed (rotated ;)) so shouldn't be too bad.

    that game was the game to start sexton and murray. pity it wasn't the first game where ireland had a good chance of winning - italy normally get the wooden spoon so they are obviously the easiest team to play against and the right time to be trying to develop a partnership between sexton and murray.


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    #126
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    If people want to develop players for the world cup then Murray should be starting. On one hand people on this forum knock Kidney for picking the same players and being incapable of building for the future yet on the other hand they want him to start a guy who's 30? People should be thankfully Kidney actually has this one right, just depressing that he got it right by mistake.


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    #127
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,719 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Higher wrote: »
    Take a look at Sextons MOTM to match starts ratio. Hes had 18 starts for Ireland and has gotten MOTM 6 times. Basically hes Irelands best player in one in every three games hes started! Hes gotten MOTM awards against Fiji, South Africa, NZ Maori, Australia, England and Italy. In fact, of those 18 games the only bad games he could be said to have had were England, Scotland and Wales in the 2011 6N where his kicking was hampered due to a quad injury. I dont recall any other bad games unless you know of any?

    Clutching at straws.


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    #128
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭nerd69


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    When exactly has Sexton played horribly? He has kicked poorly, but his play has generally been superior.

    kicking is very inportant for an international out half go back and look at his ratings from last years 6 nations and the autumn internationals before that people were calling for his head


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    #129
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    phog wrote: »
    Clutching at straws.

    Not really. Someone said Sexton's had only a couple of good games for Ireland.

    I responded that of 18 games he started hes been MOTM for 6 and been good in 9. Hes only actually had 3 poor games for Ireland and they were only poor from the boot.

    But this is about Murray. Can you give me one game where he was good in for Ireland?


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    #130
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Deleted User wrote: »
    "an outhalf's job is to kick goals"

    That's why Chris Patterson was the last Lions 10

    so who are ireland's halfpenny & hook when Priestland gets the yips?


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    #131
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    nerd69 wrote: »
    kicking is very inportant for an international out half go back and look at his ratings from last years 6 nations and the autumn internationals before that people were calling for his head

    No, it isn't. It's important for the designated kicker of an international team. Which, yes, at the time was Sexton. But his kicking performances have sweet all to do with his performance as an out-half.

    If Murray had some sort of extra responsibility like throwing in at line-outs, and that's what his flaw was and the rest of his game was good, then your point would be valid.


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    #132
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    If people want to develop players for the world cup then Murray should be starting. On one hand people on this forum knock Kidney for picking the same players and being incapable of building for the future yet on the other hand they want him to start a guy who's 30? People should be thankfully Kidney actually has this one right, just depressing that he got it right by mistake.

    developing players for the WC is doing things like giving POM 10 mins off the bench or giving O'Malley 20minutes at centre. Or even starting a younger player who is inches from being as good as the older player. Starting a poor player (Murray) over Reddan simply because hes young is not the same.

    I mean if were just going to select a player on purely potential for the world cup then lets throw in Luke McGrath right now. Its the same logic :rolleyes:


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    #133
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,719 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Higher wrote: »
    Not really. Someone said Sexton's had only a couple of good games for Ireland.

    I responded that of 18 games he started hes been MOTM for 6 and been good in 9. Hes only actually had 3 poor games for Ireland and they were only poor from the boot.

    But this is about Murray. Can you give me one game where he was good in for Ireland?

    Read the Irl V Italy match thread about the MOTM award.


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    #134
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭nerd69


    Hagz wrote: »
    No, it isn't. It's important for the designated kicker of an international team. Which, yes, at the time was Sexton. But his kicking performances have sweet all to do with his performance as an out-half.

    really whens the last time you saw anyone but an outhalf as irelands designated kicker and who would you have had kicking


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    #135
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jm08 wrote: »
    so who are ireland's halfpenny & hook when Priestland gets the yips?

    Circular argument

    Who is Ireland's playmaker when ROG starts at 10? Or do we plan to "Contain" our way to a competition victory?


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    #136
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭nerd69


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Circular argument

    Who is Ireland's playmaker when ROG starts at 10? Or do we plan to "Contain" our way to a competition victory?

    while rog started his career weak attacking hes come on a lot the real area sexton is superior is in defence


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    #137
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    phog wrote: »
    Read the Irl V Italy match thread about the MOTM award.

    O.K so take one MOTM away if it makes you feel better.

    Who was meant to be clutching at straws again?

    ;)

    Also you didnt answer my question, can you name one game where Murray was good for Ireland?


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    #138
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    nerd69 wrote: »
    really whens the last time you saw anyone but an outhalf as irelands designated kicker and who would you have had kicking

    ...what's your point. I just explained to you that kicking is not a reflection as to how an out-half is playing. It's not part of an out-halves responsibilities, it's part of a kickers responsibility.


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    #139
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Higher wrote: »
    developing players for the WC is doing things like giving POM 10 mins off the bench or giving O'Malley 20minutes at centre. Or even starting a younger player who is inches from being as good as the older player. Starting a poor player (Murray) over Reddan simply because hes young is not the same.

    I mean if were just going to select a player on purely potential for the world cup then lets throw in Luke McGrath right now. Its the same logic :rolleyes:


    Yes 10 minutes off the bench will really be very useful for a players development. Murray will either get better with games or he won't. The only way to find out is by letting him play in games.


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    #140
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭nerd69


    Higher wrote: »
    developing players for the WC is doing things like giving POM 10 mins off the bench or giving O'Malley 20minutes at centre. Or even starting a younger player who is inches from being as good as the older player. Starting a poor player (Murray) over Reddan simply because hes young is not the same.

    I mean if were just going to select a player on purely potential for the world cup then lets throw in Luke McGrath right now. Its the same logic :rolleyes:

    murray is not a poor player at all hes got a good pass just need to learn to pass first and is very good in defence and attack


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    #141
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    Guys can we keep this Connor Murray? I've noticed a trend that when players from a certain province are criticized some posters on this forum deliberately try to send the thread off topic to get it closed. No idea why but its something ive noticed.

    So, do people think Marshall deserves a chance ahead of Murray? Thats a travesty in my opinion that Marshall got no chance and Murray continues to start for Ireland!


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    #142
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Yes 10 minutes off the bench will really be very useful for a players development. Murray will either get better with games or he won't. The only way to find out is by letting him play in games.

    Correct. If only there was some way of getting him gametime, in possibly a league or cup of some sort, in which he could play many games per season under less pressure and intensity than the 6N. But alas.


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    #143
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭nerd69


    Hagz wrote: »
    ...what's your point. I just explained to you that kicking is not a reflection as to how an out-half is playing. It's not part of an out-halves responsibilities, it's part of a kickers responsibility.

    and in ireland the out half is the kicker


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    #144
    Benny Cake
    Registered Users Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭Benny Cake


    Funny thing is, if Leinster were playing France at the weekend, Schmidt would start Boss. Maybe he'll get a callup :p


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    #145
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Yes 10 minutes off the bench will really be very useful for a players development. Murray will either get better with games or he won't. The only way to find out is by letting him play in games.

    What? so we just continue to start a player whose played poorly for 8 games in the hope that he suddenly gets good? Murray has had 8 games to show hes up to it, I believe that Marshall deserves his chance at this stage.


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    #146
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Circular argument

    Who is Ireland's playmaker when ROG starts at 10? Or do we plan to "Contain" our way to a competition victory?

    you are the one who started the circular argument about patterson .:rolleyes:

    straight question - do you think getting your kicks can win a match and if you do, who is the designated kicker for ireland?


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    #147
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    nerd69 wrote: »
    and in ireland the out half is the kicker

    What has that got to do with Murray. You're talking about taking kicks when this is a thread about a scrum-half. They are two completely different things.


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    #148
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    nerd69 wrote: »
    and in ireland the out half is the kicker

    Christ, without derailing any further, ROG has had well documented horror shows with the boot too.

    If you want to start a ROG v Sexton thread, go nuts. Neither of those players play scrum half, the position of debate in this thread.


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    #149
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    jm08 wrote: »
    He hasn't been consistently bad. He came on against australia at 57 minutes (much the same time as reddan came on yesterday), and he actually made it across the whitewash for the try to be disallowed.
    Yes he has been. He was bad against the USA, he was poor against Australia when he came on (think I've watched that game about 20x at this stage!), he awful against Wales, he was poor against Castres and terrible against Northampton this season. He was poor against Wales a couple of weeks ago and was poor again against Italy last weekend.

    I think there are a number of contributing factors. Himself and Sexton do not suit each other at all. Sexton is the best out half in Europe but looks a shadow of that player when Murray is at 9.

    One factor is his decision making. The time available to half backs is even less at international level and it is showing him up big time. Peter Stringer was the master of moving the ball away from contact immediately. He would come into the contact area knowing exactly where his first receiver is so that by the time he gets to the ball he could play it away from the base immediately. Murray is slow to the breakdown because of his terrible judgement. This means that he has even less time to work out where everyone is and where the ball should be going. By the time he gets there he then has to stop and look for his first receiver, by which time the opposition defense can organise itself. At this point the first receiver has far fewer options. This suits O'Gara down to the ground because he has played a kicking game all his life. Sexton on the other hand is clearly getting frustrated by the number of opportunities this is costing him in his running game. Conversely to this, Reddan and Sexton are so used to each other that Reddan is far more comfortable with what he should be doing, and so when he arrives at the base (even if he is slow as he sometimes is) he knows exactly where to get the ball to. I think the familiarity issue and the decision making issue go hand in hand.
    jm08 wrote: »
    He had a good game against Italy in the world cup.
    With O'Gara, who is now the inferior 10, so we should really be looking at what he has done in our best combination.
    jm08 wrote: »
    If you think Murray was bad against wales, Ireland would have been destroyed by wales with Mike Phillips at scrum half.
    Really don't know where this has come from. I never compared anyone to Phillips, nor do I rate Phillips very highly.
    jm08 wrote: »
    I don't see Ireland doing anyway better with reddan at scrumhalf with their big scrumhalf and their big backs. In fact, they wouldn't have been in sexton's face quicker as they wouldn't have to think about defending around the fringes.
    We've only played well against top opposition with Reddan at scrum half and Sexton at out half since 2009. Possible exception being TOL/Sexton v. Wales in 2010.


    Why Murray ever started in the first place over a player with Reddan's talent and credentials is a mystery, although having spoken to Don Reddan it does seem there are personal issues there to some extent. I wouldn't like to think this would really affect selection but I really do not see any other reason for the mistakes up to this point.


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    #150
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    danthefan wrote: »
    Correct. If only there was some way of getting him gametime, in possibly a league or cup of some sort, in which he could play many games per season under less pressure and intensity than the 6N. But alas.



    As you said, less pressure and intensity which won't test him at the very highest level.


    Higher wrote: »
    What? so we just continue to start a player whose played poorly for 8 games in the hope that he suddenly gets good? Murray has had 8 games to show hes up to it, I believe that Marshall deserves his chance at this stage.


    Well yes. A player won't reach his full potential after just 8 games.


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    #151
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Higher wrote: »
    What? so we just continue to start a player whose played poorly for 8 games in my opinion that he suddenly gets good? Murray has had 8 games to show hes up to it, I believe that Marshall deserves his chance at this stage.

    fixed that for you.

    You didn't see marshall at the weekend then :D


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