Speedy Gonzales or Slowpoke Rodriguez?

T runner · 08-01-2012 7:23pm

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

Nice running T. Sick of the wind this week here too. Had to swap in a few treadmill runs rather than risk the wrath of the gales.

Its a great option to have: guaranteed good quality conditions.

Threatening the wind with clenched fist only makes the next gust more humiliating ive noticed.

thirstywork2 · 08-01-2012 11:28pm

savage long run there,running it on your own makes you strong mentally.find the long run by myself difficult.

T runner · 08-01-2012 11:39pm

thirstywork2 wrote: »

savage long run there,running it on your own makes you strong mentally.find the long run by myself difficult.

I know, was dreading it today TBH. I like doing loops when alone to break it up. Normally can pace it better though. Thats a handy one for the wind, usually on your back from Donore towards town but ill reverse the loop to get the wind at my back for that section. Same lenght as yours today more or less and no mountains!

T runner · 10-01-2012 12:31am

9/1/2002

19.5 k total

Two easy runs just under 10k. On grass mostly which countered any extra shock from strking the ground a little longer because of the slow pace.

Need to get my core routine up and running again. 3/4 into my long run yesterday i felt it hard to hold my hips forward. Something deep in my core was objecting when i tried so my gait was a little forward. When i was doing the consistant core work i felt solid, running upright my body strong directly above legs. To accelerate all i ahd to do was lenghten my stride slighly. Different ball game yesterday. If half an hour of core per week can make a significant difference to the important specific sessions (getting closer) then it would be very stupid not to do them.

eh starting tommorrow!

T runner · 10-01-2012 10:19pm

10/1/2012

Lunch: 9.5k v easy taking in Killiney Hill

P.M: Run home from work 12.5k again v easy.

Core session shortly

May put up some Special sessions (rather than specific) in the next day or two. Will only have time to do 4-5 id say.

T runner · 11-01-2012 9:14pm

11/1/2012

Lunch 6.5k

Regeneration run. Felt too slow and form was poor, so did some easy strides getting faster. Did about 10 mins core work.

PM 13k

Easy Fartlek: about 8-10 by 1 min with 1 min fast recovery.

13k in 53m pace 4.05 roughly

T runner · 12-01-2012 5:09pm

Heres some possibilities i may be choosing from:

Ive taken it for a 2:35 time which although possible is not probable.

The special ones are either long or intense, not both but as the special period gets closer the longer ones become more intense and the intense ones become more long. Ouch!

Special

7-10 by 2k @ 3:25-30 pace rec 2-3 mins jog
5-7 by 3k @ 3:33 pace 3 min jog.
3 by 5k @ 3:35 pace
20k continous @ 3:43

Alternations: 1k @ 3:23 1k @ 4:06 continous ave= 3:44-45 (increase fast k here and slow k in Special to reach ave of 3:41=marathon race pace.

Special:

20k hilly progression run ave 3:48

35k with speed variations: eg 15k at 4:05; 5k with 1 min fast 1 min slow; 10k at marathon race pace, 2k easy; 3k uphill all out.

AM 10k in 37m + 10k in 35:30 PM 10k in 37 + 10 by 1k in 3:20 (jog 2m)
25k hilly progression run ave 3:48
5 by 4k @ 3:36 rec 1k @ 4:06

AM 25k moderate progressive pace: 4m-3:43 pace
PM 25k faster Prog run: 3:55 -3:39 pace

34k of progressive running: 10k @ 38m; 10k @ 37m; 10k @ 36 m; 4k at 3:30 pace.

4 by 5k + 1 by 3k.

There are more but tahts enough for now. Taylored versions of some of the Specials above is probably all ill manage. My training will remain more aerobic than typical Canova schedules into tehse phases as im relatively underdeveloped there.

Krusty_Clown · 12-01-2012 5:42pm

Feck. I'm tired just looking at those sessions (and converting pace in kms to miles.

). That 35k with speed variations looks particularly nauseating.

T runner · 12-01-2012 6:00pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Feck. I'm tired just looking at those sessions (and converting pace in kms to miles. ). That 35k with speed variations looks particularly nauseating.

There is also a special run: 45-50k @1.14 times MP which i defo wont be doing.

I need to simplify some of these taking out parts that are irelevant for someone not as developed as the people these are designesd for. I wont be attempting any sessions that im not confident of completing so there will be big alterations.

TheRoadRunner · 12-01-2012 6:01pm

T runner wrote: »

34k of progressive running: 10k @ 38m; 10k @ 37m; 10k @ 36 m; 4k at 3:30 pace.

I'm with KC this session looks wicked. Average pace would be 5.55 per mile which is 2.36 marathon pace. 21 miles at MP (average) seems a big excessive to me. Would you be worried a session like that could blow a gasket or do you think you've done/will do the groundwork so that it should be doable?

thirstywork2 · 12-01-2012 7:20pm

T runner wrote: »

Heres some possibilities i may be choosing from:

Ive taken it for a 2:35 time which although possible is not probable.

The special ones are either long or intense, not both but as the special period gets closer the longer ones become more intense and the intense ones become more long. Ouch!

Special

7-10 by 2k @ 3:25-30 pace rec 2-3 mins jog
5-7 by 3k @ 3:33 pace 3 min jog.
3 by 5k @ 3:35 pace
20k continous @ 3:43

Alternations: 1k @ 3:23 1k @ 4:06 continous ave= 3:44-45 (increase fast k here and slow k in Special to reach ave of 3:41=marathon race pace.

Special:

20k hilly progression run ave 3:48

35k with speed variations: eg 15k at 4:05; 5k with 1 min fast 1 min slow; 10k at marathon race pace, 2k easy; 3k uphill all out.

AM 10k in 37m + 10k in 35:30 PM 10k in 37 + 10 by 1k in 3:20 (jog 2m)
25k hilly progression run ave 3:48
5 by 4k @ 3:36 rec 1k @ 4:06

AM 25k moderate progressive pace: 4m-3:43 pace
PM 25k faster Prog run: 3:55 -3:39 pace

34k of progressive running: 10k @ 38m; 10k @ 37m; 10k @ 36 m; 4k at 3:30 pace.

4 by 5k + 1 by 3k.

There are more but tahts enough for now. Taylored versions of some of the Specials above is probably all ill manage. My training will remain more aerobic than typical Canova schedules into tehse phases as im relatively underdeveloped there.

some savage sessions there but i can't get my head around km times

woodchopper · 12-01-2012 9:35pm

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I'm with KC this session looks wicked. Average pace would be 5.55 per mile which is 2.36 marathon pace. 21 miles at MP (average) seems a big excessive to me. Would you be worried a session like that could blow a gasket or do you think you've done/will do the groundwork so that it should be doable?

5.55 mile pace is 2.35 pace

T runner · 12-01-2012 9:39pm

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I'm with KC this session looks wicked. Average pace would be 5.55 per mile which is 2.36 marathon pace. 21 miles at MP (average) seems a big excessive to me. Would you be worried a session like that could blow a gasket or do you think you've done/will do the groundwork so that it should be doable?

That does seem excessive. Will look at the session and see if i have altered teh times correctly. Ok, just did. Should be 10k 38.40, 37.40, 36.40 + 4k in 14.24 (ish) which would be 6:02 ish. and possibly do-able with 3-4 easy days before. I do like this one though and may have a cut at it.

Heres the link to the schedule, a 2:26 female runner

Im cautious: and if theres any chance of blowing a gasket i wont be doing it. Looking at the sessions the Special phase ones are doable possibly including one long fast run of 40k. Can easily cut a rep of those ones too. Hilly progression runs are probably doable and worthwhile. Have done one of 15k ish although at a slower pace.

The aerobic work is working very well at the moment and im still progressing. My special and specific stages thus may only contain one session a week with a staple long continous fast run. So im erring on the aerobic side as a safety cushion. I wont be capable of most of these sessions but should be capable of some of them. For example the 5 by 4k with fast k recovery should be a good progression from the 2k or 3k special reps.

The special blocks are unknown and risky. Ill have to try one but i reckon it will be 9-10 weeks out and something simple of the form 10k @ 37.40 then 10k @ 36.40 .....AM and PM. If that works ill know how to construct the next one.

I looked at your build up to Berlin TRR and it was excellent and similar in structure to what ill be doing hopefully albeit with different sessions. ie, aerobic, LT, then marathon specific.

T runner · 12-01-2012 10:00pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Feck. I'm tired just looking at those sessions (and converting pace in kms to miles. ). That 35k with speed variations looks particularly nauseating.

It does. The worry is the nauseating might happen long before 35k!

I think the 3k is to use all your muscle power in very marathon specific circumstances. The twice weekly 10 by 100m max uphill leg numbers (as in cant feel them) have presumably been preparation for this horrible session end. This is a gasket blower if ever i saw one. Incidently, have you ever bonked very badly in training and does it take extra to recover physically than a similar non bonked session apart from restoring depleted energy?

thirstywork2 wrote: »

some savage sessions there but i can't get my head around km times

Ill convert some of the ones i might be doing and put times in both from now on.

Special:

6-10 by 2k @ 5.33 pace 2-3 mins jog

3 by 5k @ 5.45 pace

alternations: 1k @ 5.27 1k @ 6:35 continous for 20k

Special: 5 by 4k in 5.45 rec 1k in 6:40

34k continous:

10k @ 6.13 + 10k @ 6.04 + 10k @ 5:54 + 4k @ 5:47

T runner · 12-01-2012 10:25pm

12/1/2012

Lunch 6k and core work. 3 core mini sessions in two days.

PM Medium long run 23.3k (14.6 miles) in 89.20. (pace 3.48 km 6.07 miles)

V Happy with this. The consistant aerobic build up since late september is starting to give back now. A good reminder to keep things aerobic as long as possible. I felt the stamina tested in the last 6k but i didnt push, just kept it at the same slight discomfort. Ive literally never ran at this level before so fingers crossed i can keep progressing. Have 2 160k weeks in the bag and im confident i can sustain more now. Must keep it aerobic while im still improving though.

Anyway the course was from Kill o the grange around Killiney hill, hugging the coast against a slight sea breeze light enough to cool but not affect form or speed. Back via coliemore, bullock, DL harbour, Strand road over toll bridge, luas track behind point and BallyB. Its a good route as there is little traffic except the small section from Booterstown to Merrion gate and a great surface all the way.

Was a lot happier with my form too. Dont know if Sundays long run fixed it or the core sessions but i felt like i was solid with no issues holding my hips a little forward. Felt a lot of power was coming from the ankles.

Getting into great form but have to keep it at bay with continuing emphasis on aerobic work. Only one session a week including races until the race is a lot closer.

Its easy to blab on on the good days!!!

Krusty_Clown · 12-01-2012 10:52pm

T runner wrote: »

Incidently, have you ever bonked very badly in training and does it take extra to recover physically than a similar non bonked session apart from restoring depleted energy?

Personally I've bonked once or twice in training. In my case it was just about getting the fluids/food back into the system. No physical implications, other than tiredness/exhaustion. Perhaps a greater risk of cramps (spasms/knots) while the body is dehydrated/low on sodium.

When you say 'twice weekly 10 by 100m max uphill leg numbers', are you talking flat-out sprint? What kind of incline? Recovery? Sorry for all the questions. That's what happens when you're the guinea pig.

T runner · 12-01-2012 11:02pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Personally I've bonked once or twice in training. In my case it was just about getting the fluids/food back into the system. No physical implications, other than tiredness/exhaustion. Perhaps a greater risk of cramps (spasms/knots) while the body is dehydrated/low on sodium.

When you say 'twice weekly 10 by 100m max uphill leg numbers', are you talking flat-out sprint? What kind of incline? Recovery? Sorry for all the questions. That's what happens when you're the guinea pig.

Haha. Steep hill maximum effort. full as poss recovery. I did 3 sessions: all on steps near dalkey cliffs in the park. managed 7-9 reps i think at most,3-4 to start. Just get the legs numb. Not enough to make it even close to a session tho. It helps the legs get any stiffness out too. Theyre good during an aerobic build up as a change of pace.

One of the horror 35k canova sessions has them doing 5 by 2k towards the end of a fast long run. Canova i think expects the 2ks to deteriorate but claims that this session alone may push the wall 2k back in race terms. The athlete was still made to finish the session though.

TheRoadRunner · 13-01-2012 10:45am

T runner wrote: »

Incidently, have you ever bonked very badly in training and does it take extra to recover physically than a similar non bonked session apart from restoring depleted energy?

Bonked twice in training last Summer. One of them was during a 12 mile steady run so that was easy to handle but second time was during a 22 mile run, first 12 miles just below 7 minute pace and then supposed to do 10 @ MP, got to 7/8 @ MP and was dead on my feet, can't remember the remaining 2-3 mile slog home. To answer your question I was fine back doing fast stuff after 2 easy days. I can see the benefits of bonking in training and buy into the idea of it pushing the "wall" back.

T runner · 13-01-2012 12:02pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Personally I've bonked once or twice in training. In my case it was just about getting the fluids/food back into the system. No physical implications, other than tiredness/exhaustion. Perhaps a greater risk of cramps (spasms/knots) while the body is dehydrated/low on sodium.
.........

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Bonked twice in training last Summer. One of them was during a 12 mile steady run so that was easy to handle but second time was during a 22 mile run, first 12 miles just below 7 minute pace and then supposed to do 10 @ MP, got to 7/8 @ MP and was dead on my feet, can't remember the remaining 2-3 mile slog home. To answer your question I was fine back doing fast stuff after 2 easy days. I can see the benefits of bonking in training and buy into the idea of it pushing the "wall" back.

Thats good to know as it means the long 34-35k runs might be worth the risk. The last fast increase in the sessions (3k uphill, or 4k hard) look like they are intended to or at least likely too completely deplete glycogen stores.

Thats why i think Canova has one long run (45-50k) at 1.14% race pace suggested in the special phase. I suppose if you can do that its a good base for attempting the faster 35k ones.

A 45k run at the suggested pace (4:07) 6.37 would take 3:05

A 40k run about 2:45. Might to that one, will see.

T runner · 13-01-2012 12:06pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Feck. I'm tired just looking at those sessions (and converting pace in kms to miles. ). That 35k with speed variations looks particularly nauseating.

thirstywork2 wrote: »

some savage sessions there but i can't get my head around km times

Sorry guys, just realised the spreadsheet i pulled some of teh sessions from has both Km and miles. Apologies!!!! (hides under desk.)

Just type in marathon time at top and it gives suggested speeds.

Krusty_Clown · 13-01-2012 12:50pm

T runner wrote: »

A 40k run about 2:45. Might to that one, will see.

You might as well do it in a small field Irish marathon, run the last 2k as a warm-down, and try and pick up some prize money in the process!

T runner · 13-01-2012 1:08pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You might as well do it in a small field Irish marathon, run the last 2k as a warm-down, and try and pick up some prize money in the process!

I didnt think of that, that environment would be a good one for completing a tough long session. TBH if i can slowly progress the long fast runs i think that the 40k wouldnt be as challenging as the 34 or 35 k faster ones so would save a small marathon entry for one of those. Maybe jog very easy the first 7k (fat burn only), and start teh session after; Turning off the course with 3k to go and running up the nearest hill!

Larry Brent · 13-01-2012 1:19pm

T runner wrote: »

12/1/2012

Ive literally never ran at this level before so fingers crossed i can keep progressing.

!

T, you're in great shape. 15m at 2:40 pace. Faster than your current marathon pace and close enough to your goal pace. 3 months out from your marathon and in the middle of high mileage week.

The hardest part now will be to not over cook it. Some of those proposed sessions will have a right go at taking it all away. IMHO unless you can get 8-10 hours sleep at night and a couple of hours I the day some of these might be over ambitious.

When you are in as good shape as you are so early in the programme I think you can well afford to err on the side of caution in relation to the sessions. Less might be more.

Another way to look at it, if running aerobically since September has got you running 'literally at a level like never before' there's no need to change things too much. Another few months of the same with small amounts of MP work alone should have you in better shape again.

Some humble advice from an experienced over-cooker:)

T runner · 13-01-2012 1:38pm

Larry Brent wrote: »

T, you're in great shape. 15m at 2:40 pace. Faster than your current marathon pace and close enough to your goal pace. 3 months out from your marathon and in the middle of high mileage week.

The hardest part now will be to not over cook it. Some of those proposed sessions will have a right go at taking it all away. IMHO unless you can get 8-10 hours sleep at night and a couple of hours I the day some of these might be over ambitious.

When you are in as good shape as you are so early in the programme I think you can well afford to err on the side of caution in relation to the sessions. Less might be more.

Another way to look at it, if running aerobically since September has got you running 'literally at a level like never before' there's no need to change things too much. Another few months of the same with small amounts of MP work alone should have you in better shape again.

Some humble advice from an experienced over-cooker:)

Thanks a million Larry, was thinking along the same lines. As long as im improving there doesnt seem to be much point in changing anything yet. Might be worth carrying as now (with the odd single session) until 6-7 weeks before the race at least. I can handle the mileage (touch wood) and can slowly increment the speed and session durations to be more specific.

I do think spraying my buildup with a good variety of paces and types of continous runs. (moderate pace, fast pace, progressions, hilly runs etc) has accounted for some of the improvement and may have made the sum of the parts count for more. High mileage has brought weight right down and as im off the sugar i can literally eat healthy food like a horse and maintain my weight; which reduces the danger of weakening. The continous pressure of many months of realtively high mileage 100-160k consitantly and at moderate paces has made a big impression on my aerobic system.
Any way still a long way out so caution it is and im risking jinxing myself by spouting too much happy horse****!

T runner · 13-01-2012 11:16pm

13/1/2012

Lunch 8.75k recovery effort on west pier

PM 9.5k recovery effort to wooden bridge and back
Some core exercises

Tomorrow morning may be a 30 minute club pace run. Looking forward to it as it will be the fastest I've run in a while but will be running controlled and progressively.

T runner · 16-01-2012 10:54pm

16/1/2012

Saturday: 8k easy then 30 min LT wd 10 mins about LT pace 3:38 (5:51)

LT was from top roundabout (OS road and Chesterfield) in PP down main road to Wellington roundabout, all the way around (avoiding furry glen) to Furze road. This was tough. Got direction wrong running into a stiff enough breeze down main road and facing the uphills in a sheltered area. Meant to be a shade slower than LT, but i was looking at my watch hanging on a bit at the end. A bit of tiredness from the long tempo on thursday. Should have held the effort back more.

Sunday: PM easy 13.5 PM easy 9.5

Off on monday so decided to wait till then for the long run. Legs feeling a little better.

Monday long 27.4k (17) Pace: 4:09 (6.40)

Wind! Its very rare that the wind is not a factoe running out the coast to Howth and back. Walking the baba this AM it was a beautiful morning with only a hint of an easterly breeze. Wind slighly against going out, and on the back coming home. Perfect. It was against for the first 6-7k and seemed to ne against for the last 6-7k. Its a pity because its lovely and flat but its just not a great place to run for much of the year.

Anyway took it easy enough, still a little tired so didnt push at the end. About 4:13 pace out and 4:03 pace back.

Going to get back into a few higher mileage weeks. National intermediate coming up on feb 5th. If i can manage another couple of big weeks things will be progressing nicely. Do need to keep at the core work as form was a little over the shop tonight.

Next easy week after national inters might be around Bohermeen half. Then its big weeks till taper time.

A few standard aerobic double days to get back in the groove now, just need to keep things controlled.

Am getting quite light so nutrition is now especially important. I reckon i need more protein in the diet. Not taking enough carbs is a short term error. Getting weak would be detrimental.

thirstywork2 · 16-01-2012 11:35pm

your flying,just goes to show the importance of miles

T runner · 18-01-2012 12:54pm

Tuesday 17/1/2012

23.5k

Lunch 9.5k recovery effort

PM 14k recovery

a little core work after each run.

Happy with the recovery, started very very easy and went with the flow.
Good stretching after second run.

YTD 388.9 km

Plan now is to get the volume back up.

Ive had 2 high weeks and a highish stepback only so far. 9-10 weeks of high volume before i taper. Wont be doing any higher than 160k weeks which ive reached. Runs will get a little harder and more specific as time goes by to keep more or less the same stimulus for adaption on me as to date.

Two more easy runs for today, and medium long tommorrow.

T runner · 19-01-2012 10:43pm

wed 18/1/2012
Lunch: easy 9k with 6 by 15 secs steep uphill: near max effort

PM 14k recovery effort. Legs a little tired still. Some core work

thurs 19/1/2012

lunch: 5.5k easy with strides and core.

PM 22.4k @ 3:58 pace (6.23)

More restrained pace to last weeks similar run (shorter this week jogging till garmin connected and route alteration seeking some shelter from wind)

Happy with this. Mostly into a half-stiffish wind. I had an extra gear i felt which might be last weeks harder effort kicking in and hopefully the LT run on saturday. Ill be doing LT work once a week now. Early feb on that work will evolve into longer special sessions (e.g 7-10 by 2k @ HM pace rest 2 mins. Ill keep the long fast run and medium fast run but may introduce some faster kms at the end. (race effort or HM effort). Then it will be a 2 session week: Long run still there but faster and with M pace kms. Wednesday session too. Will drop to 130-140 kpw for this period.

Anyway. This week have a choice of saturday LT work: BHAA or session. Or Sunday IMRA.

I had planned to race sunday more for enjoyment. However, as i can do my long run this monday a saturday LT session makes more sense as i can get the monday long run done at a pace that stimulates my aerobic resistance more. BHAA it is, all going well. The 5 mile fastish course in cherrywood is perfect for marathon prep. Start conservative and start picking people off as the race progresses and strenght becomes more relevant. ie make it a steady progression of effort.

Again the LT effort on saturday told me that AT is well developed compared to LT. Need to develop LT (while still developing AT) before concentrating on AT in the final 4-5 weeks before the taper.

Thats it. Easy two runs tommorrow more core work and finally a race to look forward to

T runner · 20-01-2012 10:14pm

20/1/2012

Lunch 5k recovery

PM 12.5k run home recovery

Tired today so may postpopne session/race till Sunday. Will judge in morning.

Speedy Gonzales or Slowpoke Rodriguez?

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