"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Carawaystick · 02-12-2011 8:15pm

Mushy wrote: »

Had the card checked by luas inspector yesterday. In the morning it took an age to read the card, I thought I would get a fine.

In the evening I got them to scan it again. They asked questions bout it, I explained the mornings scanning. It worked normally at night, they said they had the new scanners. They can see all previous transactions too.
So with the new scanners for inspectors, its all good.

This is a major data protection hole, there is no reason why tram ticket checkers should be able to see your past journeys. They should only check if you have a valid ticket for the current trip

bk · 02-12-2011 8:32pm

Well after been previously double charged, it looks like I'm all even now!!

Bus driver hadn't a clue what the leap card was and just issued me with a normal ticket that I'm pretty sure wasn't deducted from the leap card.

While I've no moral qualms as I'm all even with DB now, I hope the driver doesn't get in trouble for a light fare box.

AlekSmart · 02-12-2011 9:27pm

bk wrote: »

I see your point, but I'm not sure about that. I use it all the time to pay for my girlfriend :eek:

Also I can see many parents using it to pay for their kids.

It isn't really necessary on LUAS and DART as you can buy a ticket at the machines anyway, via cash, change or credit/debit card. But you might not have change for the bus. I know I won't be carrying change any more now that I have LEAP.

I assume it is actually very easy for drivers to issue a LEAP fare. I assume that they just press the usual 1.25/1.65/1.85, etc. button that they always pressed, just that if a leap card is present the machine automatically deducts the fare from the leap card and doesn't issue the ticket.

So it is only getting drivers to understand that they don't normally have to do anything special for LEAP. They only have to exit the normal screen and go to the leap screen if the person is asking for two fares.

The Busdriver does'nt even have to do that bk,once the Leap Card is placed on the TIM the screen automatically defaults to the Leap mode.

The issue as I see it,is the absence of an Audible LOUDER confirmatory beep to signify a successful transaction,from what I can gather,Drivers are tending to automatically hit the return button,simply to have the machine behave as was normal up to now...IE-Issue a Ticket....I would suspect that familiarity will sort that out.....along with a bloody great BEEEEEP !!!!

Aard · 02-12-2011 9:42pm

Had a young driver today (yes I believe this is relevant -- so far all of the problems have been with, ahem, more mature drivers) and asked for a ticket for myself and a friend. My one was taken off the card, then a paper ticket was issued with the other fare. All worked grand without a hitch -- driver wasn't phased at all.

Got a city centre fare too. Driver had never seen a Leap card before. We had a big chat about how he was shown how to use it, but has now forgotten. And also how he has terrible eyesight and can't make out the little screen without his glasses (you would think that'd be good reason to wear them, huh?), but that's all slightly irrelevant. He didn't even try with the card. From what I could gather, he also would have preferred if Leap had made it unnecessary to talk to the driver. So at least that made two of us.

Also, I checked out my previous transactions on a Luas machine. It worked OK, except for the fact that it goes something like:
#1 -- €0.45 credited Luas
#2 -- €2.00 debited Luas
#3 -- €1.85 Dublin Bus
.....etc

The whole credit/debit thing on the Luas is a case of information overload. Yes, technically it's accurate, but it's damn hard to understand. Especially when I'm holding up a queue of people behind me. It'd be easier just to have the €1.55 shown with none of the credit/debit nonsense.

penexpers · 02-12-2011 10:27pm

Used it on the luas the other day with no problems (4 journeys in all).

Used it on a bus twice this evening. First driver it took him a second to realise I had the card, issued the fare with no problems though. Second driver had obviously seen the card before and fare was issued with no problems again.

Couple of observations
- I was lucky in that it was dark when I was making the journeys on the bus so I could see the display easily enough. If it had of been in daylight, I'm not sure if it would have been as obvious. Definitely needs a beep like the current smartcard reader.
- It takes a considerable amount of time for the card to be read on the bus readers compared to the Luas. This will need to be improved.

Overall though, quite happy with it. I'm not a huge bus user and it definitely makes the bus more attractive to me as a user knowing that I don't have to fumble around with change or buy a prepaid ticket.

Mushy · 03-12-2011 1:34am

Carawaystick wrote: »

This is a major data protection hole, there is no reason why tram ticket checkers should be able to see your past journeys. They should only check if you have a valid ticket for the current trip

Ah they werent doing it checking i had before, they just wanted to see it and how it worked. Cant imagine them questioning anyone over it.

coylemj · 03-12-2011 3:56pm

Used it for the first time yesterday, bus + Dart journey. Using it on the Dart is the same as using the IR Smartcard i.e. tag on/tag off like Oyster in London so no issues there. On the bus it was the first time I had an interaction with a driver in years as I normally use Travel90 tickets, I spotted the smartcard symbol on a box above the ticket machine so I slapped the card on top of the symbol, asked the driver for a 1.65 fare and he issued a ticket no problem. It all went so smoothly that I had no time to see if the balance is displayed on the machine and I didn't hear any beep.

Long term I will continue to buy Travel90 tickets because I often do back to back bus journeys for which Travel90 is the best option, I'll use Leap for single bus journeys and trips on the Dart. I used to buy the ten journey tickets years ago but I guess people were cloning them and that's why they were withdrawn.

I recall reading somewhere that they will eventually allow people with IR Smartcards to transfer their balance onto a Leap card and get the deposit back when they surrender the old card, any word on this?

Aard · 03-12-2011 4:10pm

Does any body know whether there will be a report published on the feedback from the 500 testers in this phase? I'd be interested to hear what people have to say. I'm also surprised at the lack of boardsies who managed to get a test card. Where are these 500 people hiding!?

markpb · 03-12-2011 4:14pm

Aard wrote: »

Does any body know whether there will be a report published on the feedback from the 500 testers in this phase? I'd be interested to hear what people have to say.

I'd be surprised if a report was written, never mind published. I assume that the NTA will use feedback to fix any teething problems as well as a way to train transport operator staff. Producing a report doesn't seem to gain anybody anything (once the issues are actually fixed, that is).

coylemj · 03-12-2011 4:40pm

markpb wrote: »

I'd be surprised if a report was written, never mind published. I assume that the NTA will use feedback to fix any teething problems as well as a way to train transport operator staff. Producing a report doesn't seem to gain anybody anything (once the issues are actually fixed, that is).

+1 The point of the survey is to identify and iron out teething problems, can't see any point in publishing a report, it would only highlight the fact that spending gazillions of euros can't anticipate every eventuality.

Aard · 03-12-2011 5:06pm

No, I realise a report would be a waste of money. Still, it would be interesting to hear what your average Joe thought about the card. People on Boards are relatively tech-savvy...

robd · 03-12-2011 7:24pm

Had my first major (and expensive) problem with leapcard on DART today.

Tagged on in Killester.
Deducted €4.30
Tagged off in Landsdowne Road approx 30 mins later.
Deducted another €4.30.
So I got charged €8.60 for journey.

Return journey appeared to work
Deducted €4.30 in Landsdowne and credited €2.20 in Killester so correct €2.10 fare.

Sent mail to email address on info sheet.
Hopefully I'll hear back. Will be frustrating if I don't given I'm now onto my own credit on card.

markpb · 03-12-2011 7:31pm

robd wrote: »

Had my first major (and expensive) problem with leapcard on DART today

It would be interesting to see what's recorded on the card history - it sounds like the tag on wasn't successful (but presumably the gate wouldn't have opened if it wasn't) or the tag off happened too late (clock sync problem maybe?) It's a pity that the Dart TVMs don't work with the Leap cards yet.

robd · 03-12-2011 8:24pm

markpb wrote: »

It would be interesting to see what's recorded on the card history - it sounds like the tag on wasn't successful (but presumably the gate wouldn't have opened if it wasn't) or the tag off happened too late (clock sync problem maybe?) It's a pity that the Dart TVMs don't work with the Leap cards yet.

Will check Luas TVM on Monday when I'm passing. Is crap about Irish Rail TVM's alright. Checked them just in case they were secretly enabled.

Both stations have the new gates. Tag on seemed to work fine. Gate opened etc. Gate was already open in Landsdowne but I did tag off on the station side of the gate. It just appeared to treat it as another tag on. Would leave me to believe there's no different interpretation between either side of gate, it's just state and time based. Would have expected time to be centrally controlled but possibly gate decides time and has the wrong time. Was only an 11 minute wait for DART and takes 17 mins to get between stations so timing was ideal.

On the way back there was a 40 minute delay due to some drunk idiot going for a wander down track which necessitated the gardai having to come and escort him off track. That one worked perfectly though.

devnull · 03-12-2011 8:39pm

robd wrote: »

Will check Luas TVM on Monday when I'm passing. Is crap about Irish Rail TVM's alright. Checked them just in case they were secretly enabled.

Both stations have the new gates. Tag on seemed to work fine. Gate opened etc. Gate was already open in Landsdowne but I did tag off on the station side of the gate. It just appeared to treat it as another tag on.

That explains it. The station side of the gates is always seems to be treated as a tag on, regardless of your actual status, I've seen the same happen myself in the past when I've seen gates disabled and tried to do the same. The same also happens with Irish Rail smartcards, so it's not a leap problem, more a problem with the gates itself.

I encourage you to report this to the LEAP customer services team, as this is something they should be aware of, although then again, there are drawbacks for setting the entrance sides of the gate for tagging off, as it gives you the option of bypassing the gate without tagging off, and perhaps tagging off later at a different station by doing this, thus reducing your fares.

robd · 03-12-2011 9:33pm

devnull wrote: »

That explains it. The station side of the gates is always seems to be treated as a tag on, regardless of your actual status, I've seen the same happen myself in the past when I've seen gates disabled and tried to do the same. The same also happens with Irish Rail smartcards, so it's not a leap problem, more a problem with the gates itself.

I encourage you to report this to the LEAP customer services team, as this is something they should be aware of, although then again, there are drawbacks for setting the entrance sides of the gate for tagging off, as it gives you the option of bypassing the gate without tagging off, and perhaps tagging off later at a different station by doing this, thus reducing your fares.

By station side, I mean platform side rather than public side. I assume we're just picking each other wrong as I would expect platform side to tag you off by default.

As per previous post, I have emailed LEAP customer support and hopefully will get an answer Monday. Mark from RailUsers is also investigating.

Digame · 03-12-2011 11:08pm

I've used the Leap card now for over a week on Dublin Bus. The main problem as I see it is due to the lack of a standard fare or a tag on/tag off system. You really need to know the correct fares and the stage system.
Some examples. Travelling from Dorset Street/ North Circular Road to Georges Street I asked for correct €1.20 fare but the machine showed O Connell street as the destination stage. Obviously the driver did not update the stage! I, of course travelled the last phase of the journey with an invalid fare on my card. Returning from Dame street to Drumcondra Station ( fare €1.65 ) I stated my destination and the machine showed the correct destination but an incorrect €1.20 fare. The driver was ahead of himself! I have had quite a few similar experiences so far. I did not discuss the problems with the drivers as I did not want to disrupt the other passengers, but if I was overcharged I would.

Tonight when I put the card on the machine nothing showed on the screen so the driver printed a "Card Status" report showing details of the last 5 journeys. This report shows the Card Number, Card Type ( Adult) Issue Date, Init. Date,Expiry Date, Card Status and Purse Balance. Then for each journey it shows: Adult Single, Date,Time,Amount,Balance,Route,Stage x to Stage y. It does not show the destination so you need to know your stages/destinations if you are going to challenge the detail. The balance shown is the balance remaining.

I really like the convenience of the card compared to cash but I would advise users to know the fares and to ask the driver for the correct fare and avoid stating destinations!

dublinman1990 · 04-12-2011 3:45am

Digame wrote: »

I've used the Leap card now for over a week on Dublin Bus. The main problem as I see it is due to the lack of a standard fare or a tag on/tag off system. You really need to know the correct fares and the stage system.
Some examples. Travelling from Dorset Street/ North Circular Road to Georges Street I asked for correct €1.20 fare but the machine showed O Connell street as the destination stage. Obviously the driver did not update the stage! I, of course travelled the last phase of the journey with an invalid fare on my card. Returning from Dame street to Drumcondra Station ( fare €1.65 ) I stated my destination and the machine showed the correct destination but an incorrect €1.20 fare. The driver was ahead of himself! I have had quite a few similar experiences so far. I did not discuss the problems with the drivers as I did not want to disrupt the other passengers, but if I was overcharged I would.

Tonight when I put the card on the machine nothing showed on the screen so the driver printed a "Card Status" report showing details of the last 5 journeys. This report shows the Card Number, Card Type ( Adult) Issue Date, Init. Date,Expiry Date, Card Status and Purse Balance. Then for each journey it shows: Adult Single, Date,Time,Amount,Balance,Route,Stage x to Stage y. It does not show the destination so you need to know your stages/destinations if you are going to challenge the detail. The balance shown is the balance remaining.

I really like the convenience of the card compared to cash but I would advise users to know the fares and to ask the driver for the correct fare and avoid stating destinations!

I had just read on @leapcard on twitter ( http://twitter.com/#!/LeapCard) that the zonal fare system for dublin is not being introduced at the moment. I have aslo read that the travel 90 cards will be added into it by 2012. So, it you haven't known this before, this is quite a nice surprise for you.

AlekSmart · 04-12-2011 12:50pm

Digame wrote: »

I've used the Leap card now for over a week on Dublin Bus. The main problem as I see it is due to the lack of a standard fare or a tag on/tag off system. You really need to know the correct fares and the stage system.
Some examples. Travelling from Dorset Street/ North Circular Road to Georges Street I asked for correct €1.20 fare but the machine showed O Connell street as the destination stage. Obviously the driver did not update the stage! I, of course travelled the last phase of the journey with an invalid fare on my card. Returning from Dame street to Drumcondra Station ( fare €1.65 ) I stated my destination and the machine showed the correct destination but an incorrect €1.20 fare. The driver was ahead of himself! I have had quite a few similar experiences so far. I did not discuss the problems with the drivers as I did not want to disrupt the other passengers, but if I was overcharged I would.

Tonight when I put the card on the machine nothing showed on the screen so the driver printed a "Card Status" report showing details of the last 5 journeys. This report shows the Card Number, Card Type ( Adult) Issue Date, Init. Date,Expiry Date, Card Status and Purse Balance. Then for each journey it shows: Adult Single, Date,Time,Amount,Balance,Route,Stage x to Stage y. It does not show the destination so you need to know your stages/destinations if you are going to challenge the detail. The balance shown is the balance remaining.

I really like the convenience of the card compared to cash but I would advise users to know the fares and to ask the driver for the correct fare and avoid stating destinations!

Excellent post Digame.

I cannot comprehend how these people have spent 12 years and €40+Million without bothering to go about the parish on an inspection tour....what we are seeing on the buses is the result of a SINGLE deliberate error of omission ie: the removal of on-street Fare Stage Identification.

It is my opinion that NO successful Fare Evasion prosecution could result as the company have deliberately made it impossible for any reasonable person to determine their actual Fare Stage boarding point.

However,that can only be a defence if a passenger so charged is aware of this deficiency...take Digame's advice and at least note where the information is deficient...hint...photo of the relevant Bus Stop stored on camera...

It is beyond madness.

The NTA,RPA,ITS and the Government itself are risking the credibility of this highly desireable multi-million € system for the cost of a weekend's work and some Letraset figures.....Are they for real ??

If Bus Atha Cliath refuse to recognise and attend to this long running sore,then the NTA need to realize the extent of their actual powers....ie: Intervene and put up the Fare-Stage markings themselves....their remit is to the imposition of order and discipline upon the various systems under their control.

This nonsense,highlighted by the 500 Controlled Users, needs to be attended to NOW.

blubloblu · 04-12-2011 3:05pm

Off the twitter page there "leap cards won't be used for free travel". I wonder why that is? Could've cut out a lot of fraud.

dublinman1990 · 04-12-2011 3:52pm

blubloblu wrote: »

Off the twitter page there "leap cards won't be used for free travel". I wonder why that is? Could've cut out a lot of fraud.

I heard that there is plans to propose a National ID Card for the public service (including free travel on that system). But, the leap card is for pay as you go users only. When you buy the card in a newsagent you have to register the leap card online before you top up, use it, and then check your balance too.

coylemj · 04-12-2011 6:45pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I have aslo read that the travel 90 cards will be added into it by 2012. So, it you haven't known this before, this is quite a nice surprise for you.

Now that is good news!

I'm just wondering how they will diferentiate between a person travelling more than 13 stages (who currently swipe the Leap card to the right as you board and have 2.20 deducted) or someone who wants to do back-to-back bus journeys within 90 minutes?

Presumably it (the machine) will detect that the card has Travel90 credits in which case it will dock one of these and if there are none, it will dock 2.20.

The Travel90 credits on the card will need to be stamped with the validation times so that when you board your second bus the machine will give you a 'free transfer' as it does at the moment as long as the last used Travel90 credit is less than 90 minutes old. The Leap system being able to handle Travel90 will be a bigger deal than simply storing season tickets because accepting season tickets is a validation that doesn't require the machine to store data back on the card, it's simply a 'yes' or 'no' validation whereas handling Travel90 credits will involve writing data to the card.

Aard · 04-12-2011 7:47pm

I'd imagine, unfortunately, that the €2.20 fare will become a Travel 90. Their subsidy is being reduced by 20% after all...

AlekSmart · 04-12-2011 9:24pm

Aard wrote: »

I'd imagine, unfortunately, that the €2.20 fare will become a Travel 90. Their subsidy is being reduced by 20% after all...

Which is why I'd strongly recommend stocking up on long-date T90's asap !!

expectationlost · 05-12-2011 1:17am

is there a new hardware/software in the ticket offices for leap

coylemj · 05-12-2011 1:44am

expectationlost wrote: »

is there a new hardware/software in the ticket offices for leap

You can top them up at Luas machines and in Payzone agents who have the right equipment.

Were you thinking about Dart ticket offices? They don't even handle Irish Rail Smartcards, that's all done in the self-service machines but the Dart station machines don't seem to be able to top up the Leap cards, at least not at the moment.

nairy hipples · 05-12-2011 9:39am

coylemj wrote: »

You can top them up at Luas machines and in Payzone agents who have the right equipment.

Were you thinking about Dart ticket offices? They don't even handle Irish Rail Smartcards, that's all done in the self-service machines but the Dart station machines don't seem to be able to top up the Leap cards, at least not at the moment.

We got a LeapCard ticket machine installed in our shop about two weeks ago. I work in UCD and it's only on one till so if it proves popular it's going to cause mayhem with the queuing structure!
Received no training or anything yet in it but presumably it'll be up and running pretty soon!
Got some nice posters and stickers to advertise it too!

Winters · 05-12-2011 11:57am

In comparison to the IE Smart Card I have found the Leap Card to be slower to tag on and off. On each occasion I have had to hold it to the reader for over 2 or 3 seconds longer than the usual 1 second for the IE Smart Card.

I have noticed that the Leap Card is charging €2.20 for my DART journeys while my existing IE Smart Card is charging €2.10. Also, seeing as I can use my Leap Card on IE journeys, I dont see why I cannot top up or even check my balance using IE ticket vending machines.

Using the bus has not proved to be any easier for me, how can I find out how many stages I am travelling and thus my fare before getting on the bus? Would a time limit not be easier for the bus user? If its confusing for Irish people god knows how tourists get their head around it.

While the advantages of not using cash have certainly sped up my boarding times I feel the Leap Card is, as of now, still just a contactless ticket with an electronic purse. No dissimilar to say a gift or debit card.

With the exception of the Luas, Ireland still operates with the antiquated and confusing fare stage system. I fear that until we progress to the common and simpler zonal fare system the Leap Card will forever be just a contactless ticket.

You cant have an integrated ticketing scheme without an integrated fare system, I would have presumed this was clear when the project started in 2003.

(Emailed to customer.care@leapcard.ie, testcard@rpa.ie, Janice.O'Neill@rpa.ie, smartcard@irishrail.ie, customercomment@dublinbus.ie and info@transport.ie)

bk · 05-12-2011 12:09pm

Winters wrote: »

In comparison to the IE Smart Card I have found the Leap Card to be slower to tag on and off. On each occasion I have had to hold it to the reader for over 2 or 3 seconds longer than the usual 1 second for the IE Smart Card.

I don't have the same issue with my Leap card, works the same as the old IR card.

Winters wrote: »

I have noticed that the Leap Card is charging €2.20 for my DART journeys while my existing IE Smart Card is charging €2.10.

You are right, me too. Dart.ie says the fare should be 2.10

Flukey · 05-12-2011 1:26pm

I filled in the survey this morning. As I am sure all of us that filled it did, I highlighted issues around Dublin Bus and about the fare structures. It remains to be seen how much will be taken onboard. Once they tweak it a bit and smoothen out the problems, it could work well.

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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