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Iarnród Éireann charging adult fare on school trip

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24

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    #32
    nimrod86
    Registered Users Posts: 751 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Do you get the Dart or Bus regularly? Do you use the Dart for school? have you never been asked for proof of your age on the Dart or bus before? You really should know to have proof of age to avail of child/schoolchild/scholar fares.

    No, I don't get it to school as I live near my school, but I do use it to go in and out of town and have never experienced this problem before. What I can't understand is why they decided to suddenly do this to so many students who's train was about to leave!!!


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    #33
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,204 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    nimrod86 wrote: »
    No, I don't get it to school as I live near my school, but I do use it to go in and out of town and have never experienced this problem before. What I can't understand is why they decided to suddenly do this to so many students who's train was about to leave!!!

    Presumably they didn't make you arrive at the station as the train was leaving?


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    #34
    nimrod86
    Registered Users Posts: 751 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    Dodge wrote: »
    Presumably they didn't make you arrive at the station as the train was leaving?

    No we were there early enough, but because of arguing a lot of us didn't get tickets until about a minute before the train left. Some of the class and a teacher were already on the train and they were still holding us up. I've just sent a complaint to Irish Rail anyway and am about to send one to The ministers for the environment, transport and education about there being no way for me to prove my age


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    #35
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    nimrod86 wrote: »
    No, I don't get it to school as I live near my school, but I do use it to go in and out of town and have never experienced this problem before. What I can't understand is why they decided to suddenly do this to so many students who's train was about to leave!!!
    Obviously they were correctly assuming that so many TY students claiming to be Children entitled to child fares was to much to believe and decided to request proof of age from all as they are entitled to do.
    but I do use it to go in and out of town and have never experienced this problem before.
    Interesting that you refer to it as a problem, The only problem was ye did not have the required proof of age. you may be 15 or even 13 but if the Irish Rail employee does not agree it is up to you to prove your age and frankly not carrying this proof of age when you use the dart on a regular basis is your own problem and not one created in any way by Irish Rail.


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    #36
    nimrod86
    Registered Users Posts: 751 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Interesting that you refer to it as a problem, The only problem was ye did not have the required proof of age. you may be 15 or even 13 but if the Irish Rail employee does not agree it is up to you to prove your age and frankly not carrying this proof of age when you use the dart on a regular basis is your own problem and not one created in any way by Irish Rail.

    But what ID can they expect me to carry? I don't drive, pay bills, many classmates don't have passports, I certainly am not bringing either my passport or even a scan of it with me on the dart or into town. That's my personal information which I don't want to fall into the wrong hands


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    #37
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    ConTheCat wrote: »
    Ty students are mainly 16 though aren't they? I know I was 16 and one of the youngest!

    My daughter is in TY. Her and most of her mates are 15. (In fact they might all be 15).


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    #38
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The only problem was ye did not have the required proof of age. you may be 15 or even 13 but if the Irish Rail employee does not agree it is up to you to prove your age
    Think about what you are saying: That the IE guy's position was that every single one of them was lying including the teachers!

    I prefer to take the view that he had a uniform on and was suffering from the associated power trip.


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    #39
    nimrod86
    Registered Users Posts: 751 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Think about what you are saying: That the IE guy's position was that every single one of them was lying including the teachers!

    I prefer to take the view that he had a uniform on and was suffering from the associated power trip.

    That's basically exactly it, he was rude and incompetent as far as I'm concerned.

    But it does raise the issue of a National ID for children and adults


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    #40
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    nimrod86 wrote: »
    But what ID can they expect me to carry? I don't drive, pay bills, many classmates don't have passports, I certainly am not bringing either my passport or even a scan of it with me on the dart or into town. That's my personal information which I don't want to fall into the wrong hands

    They do't want ID they require proof of your age. How you provide such proof is not their concern.

    You could get a Garda age card for a small fee (€5 afaik) which can be used for any other situation where photo id or proof of age is required.

    You could bring a birth certificate with you but be prepared to prove you are the person named on it.

    You could get the Dublin Bus schoolchild id card which is free afaik and the application form is Here.

    You can also get a form from your school office stating that you are a student there and it will most likely have your date of birth on it which may be enough.


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    #41
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Think about what you are saying: That the IE guy's position was that every single one of them was lying including the teachers!

    I prefer to take the view that he had a uniform on and was suffering from the associated power trip.

    The IE staff members position seems to have been if in doubt ask for proof of age and with such a large number of noisy students appearing without notice all requesting child tickets which possibly two thirds were not entitled to anyone would do the same imho.

    I would also hold off blaming the school because they most likely told all their students that they would be charged normal child/adult fares dependant on their age. The only mistake the school/teachers made is not booking the trip and getting a proper discount.


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    #42
    nimrod86
    Registered Users Posts: 751 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    They do't want ID they require proof of your age. How you provide such proof is not their concern.

    You could get a Garda age card for a small fee (€5 afaik) which can be used for any other situation where photo id or proof of age is required. Yes, that is a possible solution, but what I think we need is a card we are all required to have. They can't expect me to go out of my way to say I'm not LYING

    You could bring a birth certificate with you but be prepared to prove you are the person named on it. I certainly am not bringing even a copy of this for the same reason as the passport, and then I'm back to the problem of trying to prove I am that person. That then gets into what counts as an ID

    You could get the Dublin Bus schoolchild id card which is free afaik and the application form is Here.I might use the bus once a year, so despite being free, it's not worth my while, and that is for Dublin Bus, not Irish Rail. I shouldn't be asked to show that when buying a train ticket

    You can also get a form from your school office stating that you are a student there and it will most likely have your date of birth on it which may be enough.
    We have to pay a charge for photocopying, It wouldn't be economic for the school to print this for every trip we do. Also, it Isn't really relative what school I go to or whether I'm a student there, I am under 16 and they are overcharging me. They don't even say what they class as ID. I mean they wouldn't take our teachers word, what's to say they won't say its a fake letter

    Sorry to seem like I'm arguing with you by the way! My complaint isn't with you, and you have been helpful. But my point is There is no Nationally accepted way for me to prove my age. ( That and I'm really p*ssed off by all this!)


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    #43
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    nimrod86 wrote: »
    We have to pay a charge for photocopying, It wouldn't be economic for the school to print this for every trip we do. Also, it Isn't really relative what school I go to or whether I'm a student there, I am under 16 and they are overcharging me. They don't even say what they class as ID. I mean they wouldn't take our teachers word, what's to say they won't say its a fake letter

    Sorry to seem like I'm arguing with you by the way! My complaint isn't with you, and you have been helpful. But my point is There is no Nationally accepted way for me to prove my age. ( That and I'm really p*ssed off by all this!)
    I understand your issue but they are not overcharging you, they offer a reduced fare to passengers under 16 but where there is any doubt about a persons age it is up to them to prove their age.

    https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/ConditionsOfTravel.pdf
    14.2 Subject to restrictions on certain trains, children from their fifth to their
    sixteenth birthday are entitled to discounts on most tickets.
    14.3 Where there is a doubt regarding the age qualification, it will be the
    responsibility of the passenger to produce satisfactory evidence of age to
    secure the reduced fare.

    I have listed a few ways that you can prove your age including the form from the school which i imagine they would issue to you once and you will present it as proof when asked and then retain it in case it is required at a later date.


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    #44
    number10a
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭number10a


    nimrod86 wrote: »
    Yeah, a fair few were, but there was at least 20-25 of us who aren't.

    If that was the case, the teachers (who do have access to dates of birth) should have had lists of students over 16 and those under 16 and had them in two seperate groups when paying. The students could have been advised of the appropriate fare for their age, and the under 16s could have been told that without ID, they may still be charged the adult rate so to be prepared for this. At least then when the IÉ workers see a bit of initiative and help in dealing with a group of 60 they might have been a bit more co-operative. A little bit of organisation can go a very long way.

    The alternative of using ID is fairly difficult for a 15 year old considering the only state-issued ID you can have at that age is a passport and not every family will have been able to take their kids on holidays to result in there being a passport sitting at home.


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    #45
    TheChrisD
    Registered Users Posts: 4,524 ✭✭✭TheChrisD


    ConTheCat wrote: »
    Ty students are mainly 16 though aren't they? I know I was 16 and one of the youngest!

    I was 14 for the entirety of TY when I did it...
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    You could get a Garda age card for a small fee (€5 afaik) which can be used for any other situation where photo id or proof of age is required.

    The Garda age card is only for over-18's, because the point of it is to prove you are over-18.

    But yes, in the end, there is nothing nationally and well-known that you need to have to prove that you are under 16, particularly since there is no national identity scheme. The DB schoolchild ID thing is only really there if you use DB.

    The only IE based alternative is the child smartcard. Again rather useless if you rarely take the train.

    There's so much available to prove that you are over 16, but almost nothing (that isn't a risk to be carrying on your person) to prove you are under 16.
    image.png




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    #46
    nimrod86
    Registered Users Posts: 751 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    number10a wrote: »
    If that was the case, the teachers (who do have access to dates of birth) should have had lists of students over 16 and those under 16 and had them in two seperate groups when paying. The students could have been advised of the appropriate fare for their age, and the under 16s could have been told that without ID, they may still be charged the adult rate so to be prepared for this. At least then when the IÉ workers see a bit of initiative and help in dealing with a group of 60 they might have been a bit more co-operative. A little bit of organisation can go a very long way.

    The alternative of using ID is fairly difficult for a 15 year old considering the only state-issued ID you can have at that age is a passport and not every family will have been able to take their kids on holidays to result in there being a passport sitting at home.

    We all knew the fare relative to our ages, that's where part of the problem was, some only brought enough for the fare and a cheap lunch. And as I said before, it's never been an issue before.

    I agree totaly about the passports too!


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    #47
    number10a
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭number10a


    TheChrisD wrote: »
    I was 14 for the entirety of TY when I did it...

    So you started Junior Infants at the age of 2? :confused:


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    #48
    TheChrisD
    Registered Users Posts: 4,524 ✭✭✭TheChrisD


    number10a wrote: »
    So you started Junior Infants at the age of 2? :confused:

    Birthday's in July, started Junior having just gone 4, skipped Senior and was put straight up into 1st class. Thus starting 1st year at 11, and doing my Leaving before my 17th birthday.
    image.png




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    #49
    saa
    Registered Users Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭saa


    Some schools have date of births on their ID cards but not all.
    I agree there should be some of ID for 12-16 year olds for travel,
    but OP should know there is usually an argument at ticket offices, they can't tell if someone is 15,16, or 17 looking for a child ticket.


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    #50
    nimrod86
    Registered Users Posts: 751 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    Also, I said this in my e-mail to the ministers, why are a semi-state body allowed to charge a 16 year old an adult rate when the government and state still sees them a a child?


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    #51
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    number10a wrote: »
    If that was the case, the teachers (who do have access to dates of birth) should have had lists of students over 16 and those under 16 and had them in two seperate groups when paying. The students could have been advised of the appropriate fare for their age, and the under 16s could have been told that without ID, they may still be charged the adult rate so to be prepared for this. At least then when the IÉ workers see a bit of initiative and help in dealing with a group of 60 they might have been a bit more co-operative. A little bit of organisation can go a very long way.

    The alternative of using ID is fairly difficult for a 15 year old considering the only state-issued ID you can have at that age is a passport and not every family will have been able to take their kids on holidays to result in there being a passport sitting at home.
    At this level the teachers usually leave it up to the individual students to find out and pay their own fare, except maybe for special needs students who may need some assistance, I would expect even primary school children would be able to do this if they lived along the dart line, I am also thinking that teachers would have warned those over 16 that they would have to pay adult fares as these outings are all about safety and organisation and preparation is usually spot on..

    a birth certificate is also state issued and is usually accepted as proof of age as well as most schools will issue a letter of enrollment stating that the child attends the school and this could alse contain the date of birth and may be acceptable.


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    #52
    TheChrisD
    Registered Users Posts: 4,524 ✭✭✭TheChrisD


    saa wrote: »
    Some schools have date of births on their ID cards but not all.

    Schools have ID cards?
    image.png




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    #53
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    TheChrisD wrote: »
    Schools have ID cards?
    Many schools do have ID cards but a lot dont.


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    #54
    number10a
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭number10a


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    At this level the teachers usually leave it up to the individual students to find out and pay their own fare, except maybe for special needs students? I would expect even primary school children would be able to do this if they lived along the dart line,

    In an ideal world, yes. But as a trainee teacher myself, I have learned even at this early stage that you can never assume that the kids in the class are capable of such things (or even anything) - no matter how reasonable you think the task is, or how frustrating you find it that half your class is mollycoddled and spoonfed. Such assumption leads to a very bald teacher. Some of them might never have paid for the DART because mammy or daddy did it all along. Some of them probably can't even make toast. My own cousin is in LC, is highly intelligent, but is the most oblivious and helpless person I know. She'd probably starve to death only for the fact that my aunt still does everything for her.


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    #55
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    number10a wrote: »
    In an ideal world, yes. But as a trainee teacher myself, I have learned even at this early stage that you can never assume that the kids in the class are capable of such things (or even anything) - no matter how reasonable you think the task is, or how frustrating you find it that half your class is mollycoddled and spoonfed. Such assumption leads to a very bald teacher. Some of them might never have paid for the DART because mammy or daddy did it all along. Some of them probably can't even make toast. My own cousin is in LC, is highly intelligent, but is the most oblivious and helpless person I know. She'd probably starve to death only for the fact that my aunt still does everything for her.
    But is this not what TY is all about? letting the little darlings learn from experience? The only way most will learn is on a day like that when half their spending money is gone because they couldnt be bovvered reading up on their own train fares!


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    #56
    loobylou
    Registered Users Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭loobylou


    My children use/used the DART from Greystones to get to school. Got a reduced rate up to age 16, paid full rate for 2 years and then get a reduced rate again because they're in college.
    The system is full of anomalies.


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    #57
    nimrod86
    Registered Users Posts: 751 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    But is this not what TY is all about? letting the little darlings learn from experience? The only way most will learn is on a day like that when half their spending money is gone because they couldnt be bovvered reading up on their own train fares!

    We did read up, I said this many times!!! The issue is the lack of an ID system in this country!


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    #58
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    nimrod86 wrote: »
    We did read up, I said this many times!!! The issue is the lack of an ID system in this country!
    Birth certificate, Letter from School, passport, library card? E111 card, PPS card there are lots of ways to prove your age.


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    #59
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Can you clarify - did any of you have any form of ID at all, and it got refused because it wasn't adequate, or was there no ID available of any kind?


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    #60
    holidaygirl
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭holidaygirl


    The Student travel card is an option available which offers various discounts and I reckon would be acceptable as a form of id. Yes there is an initial cost but seems like the cost could be easily saved after a handful of uses.


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    #61
    nimrod86
    Registered Users Posts: 751 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    -Chris- wrote: »
    Can you clarify - did any of you have any form of ID at all, and it got refused because it wasn't adequate, or was there no ID available of any kind?

    Just spoke to a few people on facebook, seems a few people were given the child rate, and ID wise, one guy happened to have his EU health card in his pocket for god knows what reason and I think after a bit of banter between to staff they accpeted it.


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