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‘OCCUPY Wall Street’ protestors on Dame Street

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    #272
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Ok, so we accept what has been done, is done. How do we prevent it happening again without reforms being put in place?

    How do we make politicians accountable? By introducing a wide ranging and vague clause into the constitution giving sweeping powers to the executive to hold judicial proceedings? That is what the government is proposing - can we really trust these people to decide what is in the public interest or to clean their own houses - never mind investigate members of the public?

    How do we ensure the financial sector is regulated when there is no indication that government has the will to tackle it?

    How do we ensure that corruption is henceforth punished with the full rigour of the law?

    How do we stop the practice of rewarding incompetence in the public sector?

    I grew up during the lean times of the 70s, came to adulthood in the 80s during Charlie 'We must all tighten our belts' Haughey's rein and Thatcher's trickledown economics. Lived through more recessions then I care to remember and I want the cycle to stop. Yet, it seems as though the incompetence and corruption just seems to be spreading like a canker through our society. We went from Haughey's faux-country squire excesses to Bertie's won it on the horses - it's just getting worse....

    I honestly do not believe there will be any changes unless we force them. TDs are inoculated from the austerities faced by the majority due to their generous salaries, expanses and guaranteed pensions after 3 years in the Dail.

    Some suggestions I would make is that a TD who loses their seat - i.e. has been 'sacked' by the electorate is not automatically entitled to a pension.

    That TDs who do manage to hang on til retirement age get one pension only from the state - stop all of this TD's pension plus minister's pension nonsense. If they wish to take out a private pension - that's their own business.

    That we decentralise local powers back to the councils - and make them responsible for their local communities, answerable to the local electorate. Removing much of the power vested in the overpaid county managers in the process.

    Drastically reduce the number of TDs.

    Make the Seanad directly elected - but limit the number of candidates from the political parties to 10 each to encourage independents.

    Now I'm just throwing out ideas, trying to express what I think could be done in some areas. And to me that is what the Occupy movement is all about. It is a dialogue the people are having with ourselves - outside of the political system.

    First - identify and express our grievances. (This is where we are now...)
    Two - formulate what reforms we think are required.
    Three - Peacefully agitate to get genuine reforms implemented.

    The actual occupations are symbolic - the visible tip of the iceberg of discontent. They provide a focus and a meeting point for dialogue. They are both Global and National as different countries face some problems in common while others are specific to that region.

    I agree with a lot of what you say (apart from the referendum but that's for another thread) and a lot of it is part of the FG/Lab programme and/or the Troika reforms.

    But you are in the minority of the protesters when it comes to the first sentence which is accept that what is done is done. The protestors appear to be all about burn the bondholders and pay our mortgages and give us back the good lifestyle (big house, two cars, foreign holiday etc.) Those things are gone and the opportunity to realistically burn the bondholders has passed us by. We need to accept where we are, work out what needs to be done to get the country working again and make sure we never make the same mistakes again.

    The person who makes the best sense at the moment is Ruairi Quinn who keeps saying the first thing to be done is get back control of our own destiny.


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    #273
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    The complete bondholder list is hidden from public (of course), maybe you can dig it up @Scofflaw :rolleyes:
    but here are some of the lot that we know of that got involved with Anglo, quite a few are German

    ai_bondholders.jpg

    Yes, and at least some of those German companies listed are junior bondholders - junior bondholders holding exactly the same debt coupons as Irish bondholders that don't appear on the list - making the list utterly valueless except as a propaganda tool. But there will always be people keen to swallow it.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #274
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Godge wrote: »
    I agree with a lot of what you say (apart from the referendum but that's for another thread) and a lot of it is part of the FG/Lab programme and/or the Troika reforms.

    But you are in the minority of the protesters when it comes to the first sentence which is accept that what is done is done. The protestors appear to be all about burn the bondholders and pay our mortgages and give us back the good lifestyle (big house, two cars, foreign holiday etc.) Those things are gone and the opportunity to realistically burn the bondholders has passed us by. We need to accept where we are, work out what needs to be done to get the country working again and make sure we never make the same mistakes again.

    The person who makes the best sense at the moment is Ruairi Quinn who keeps saying the first thing to be done is get back control of our own destiny.

    As I said - it is still at step one - identify and express grievances.

    Yes. there is formless anger happening among some, albeit vocal, protesters. That is to be expected - this is very new to most people. Politics for many of those I spoke to previously consisted of voting every so often. So, yes, there are kneejerking reactions -hell, our FF government who were supposed to know what they were doing introduced kneejerk measures re: the banks...

    The important thing is a dialogue is beginning outside the party system that has so obviously failed us. Where that dialogue will lead is an unknown, but at least we see ordinary people starting to discuss what they want from their government - not just the usual uhhh jobs, uhh hospitals...uhhh schools way - but in a how should government function way. What is it's role? Is it fulfilling that role? If not - why/how? How do we make it fulfil its role? What do we do if it doesn't?

    The potential of this movement to change how the political system works (or doesn't!) in Ireland is enormous and the more input to that dialogue from all shades on the political spectrum the better.

    Ruairi is right - however, the big question is who will control that destiny? Will it be the ancien regime of FF + a.n. others Vs FG + Labour merry-go-round again or can we make something new from the ashes?


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    #275
    Ben Hadad
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭Ben Hadad


    Personally I think the Irish Version of Occupy star would be better served with not making any demands whatsoever just like the US mother version is currently doing.

    Just like a brainless zombie in a b grade horror flick, the best form this protest can take is a brainless unstoppable force that cannot be reasoned with. The worst thing you can do is open up dialogue with the status quo for obvious reasons.

    Also, "better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". Popular protests tend to fall foul of this in 99% of cases.


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    #276
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Ben Hadad wrote: »
    Personally I think the Irish Version of Occupy star would be better served with not making any demands whatsoever just like the US mother version is currently doing.

    Just like a brainless zombie in a b grade horror flick, the best form this protest can take is a brainless unstoppable force that cannot be reasoned with. The worst thing you can do is open up dialogue with the status quo for obvious reasons.

    Also, "better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". Popular protests tend to fall foul of this in 99% of cases.

    When it comes to making demands you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.:(


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    #277
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    The potential of this movement to change how the political system works (or doesn't!) in Ireland is enormous and the more input to that dialogue from all shades on the political spectrum the better.
    Not a hope, they'll get bored and wonder back to their houses in Sandymount and Blackrock soon enough. There is no legitimate political party in Ireland which has decided to hitch its wagon to the protest group, and "ordinary" people have expressed little or no interest. I saw a sociology lecturer from somewhere interviewed recently saying he had joined the protests - I can see half the country rolling their eyes at seeing someone who teaches sociology for a living camping out beside the Central Bank, while people are working morning noon and night to try and hold on to their "normal" jobs.

    In the US the occupy Wall Street movement has gained some traction because the Democratic party sees them as a useful counterweight to the Tea Party in the runup to the elections. That's it for them.


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    #278
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    hmmm wrote: »
    Not a hope, they'll get bored and wonder back to their houses in Sandymount and Blackrock soon enough. There is no legitimate political party in Ireland which has decided to hitch its wagon to the protest group, and "ordinary" people have expressed little or no interest. I saw a sociology lecturer from somewhere interviewed recently saying he had joined the protests - I can see half the country rolling their eyes at seeing someone who teaches sociology for a living camping out beside the Central Bank, while people are working morning noon and night to try and hold on to their "normal" jobs.

    In the US the occupy Wall Street movement has gained some traction because the Democratic party sees them as a useful counterweight to the Tea Party in the runup to the elections. That's it for them.

    No political party is allowed to hitch their wagon to it. Even David Norris was barred from undertaking any form of political campaigning yesterday.

    Who do you think is keeping the Camps supplied? It is ordinary, working people. In fact, a friend of mine is making soup for the Dame Street camp tomorrow on her day off.

    Nice attempt to paint all the Dame St occupiers as bored and middle class from the 'Rock. Makes a change from Hippies/Hipsters I suppose...;)


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    #279
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    No political party is allowed to hitch their wagon to it. Even David Norris was barred from undertaking any form of political campaigning yesterday.
    It's the usual suspects involved. I've yet to see any groundswell of support from ordinary workers.

    I passed them today and felt a bit sorry for them, they've picked a noisy spot beside a busy road to try and get some sleep. A camp up in Stephens Green would have been better.


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    #280
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    hmmm wrote: »
    It's the usual suspects involved. I've yet to see any groundswell of support from ordinary workers.

    I passed them today and felt a bit sorry for them, they've picked a noisy spot beside a busy road to try and get some sleep. A camp up in Stephens Green would have been better.

    I can see how people would feel it is the usual suspects what with everyone wearing layers and layers of clothes and generally looking a bit scruffy due to lack of shower facilities. But it really isn't - honest! The support from ordinary people is in the form of bringing supplies, equipment etc.

    How do you think it has survived even 3 weeks if they weren't being supplied by those on the 'outside'?

    Stephen's Green ... nicely enclosed space... few entrances/ exits...hell, even Con Markievicz thought better of 'protesting' there - and she was armed! Plus - it's too far from the financial hub.


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    #281
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I can see how people would feel it is the usual suspects what with everyone wearing layers and layers of clothes and generally looking a bit scruffy due to lack of shower facilities. But it really isn't - honest! The support from ordinary people is in the form of bringing supplies, equipment etc.
    And you're an impartial observer?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70867490&postcount=109


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    #282
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    hmmm wrote: »
    It's the usual suspects involved. I've yet to see any groundswell of support from ordinary workers.

    "The Usual Suspects" being WHO, FFS?!?!?! :mad:

    I'm getting really sick of seeing phrases like that thrown around. Being stereotyped is bad enough, but being stereotyped and not even told what that stereotype is? Are you f*cking KIDDING me?!

    Political parties aren't allowed. So you're not talking about politicians, and if you are, you're completely and utterly wrong.
    Are you referring to the unemployed? Many unemployed in this country have lost their jobs through the fault of the assholes these people are protesting against, they have every right to be pissed about it.
    Are you referring to students? Students are the future of this country and they're the ones who will ultimately get stuck with the bill for all this crap. They have every right to protest.
    Are you referring to "lefties"? The word "lefties" is so ridiculously vague at this stage that it has absolutely no credibility whatsoever, so either clarify or leave it out. And FYI, the United Left Alliance actually staged a different protest an hour before ours because they wouldn't accept the "no political party banners" rule.

    So just who ARE "the usual suspects"? Keyser soze? Or is this just a generic way of putting something down and hoping everyone will automatically buy what you're saying without reading into it? :confused:


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    #283
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    hmmm wrote: »
    And you're an impartial observer?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70867490&postcount=109

    I am a completely partial participant by being an ordinary person, not from Blackrock, who is supporting them. Never denied it. ;)


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    #284
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Ruairi is right - however, the big question is who will control that destiny? Will it be the ancien regime of FF + a.n. others Vs FG + Labour merry-go-round again or can we make something new from the ashes?

    That depends on the wishes of the Irish public in general, and I would have said that the likelihood is therefore very slim. I'm not getting at you there, I'm just pointing out that the number of people who actually want something new is probably very small indeed - it usually is.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #285
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    "The Usual Suspects" being WHO, FFS?!?!?! :mad:

    I'm getting really sick of seeing phrases like that thrown around. Being stereotyped is bad enough, but being stereotyped and not even told what that stereotype is? Are you f*cking KIDDING me?!

    Political parties aren't allowed. So you're not talking about politicians, and if you are, you're completely and utterly wrong.
    Are you referring to the unemployed? Many unemployed in this country have lost their jobs through the fault of the assholes these people are protesting against, they have every right to be pissed about it.
    Are you referring to students? Students are the future of this country and they're the ones who will ultimately get stuck with the bill for all this crap. They have every right to protest.
    Are you referring to "lefties"? The word "lefties" is so ridiculously vague at this stage that it has absolutely no credibility whatsoever, so either clarify or leave it out. And FYI, the United Left Alliance actually staged a different protest an hour before ours because they wouldn't accept the "no political party banners" rule.

    So just who ARE "the usual suspects"? Keyser soze? Or is this just a generic way of putting something down and hoping everyone will automatically buy what you're saying without reading into it? :confused:



    I don't know who he is talking about but I would assume he is talking about what some people would call the serial protesters. There is an impression out there that some people will protest at anything. They probably started at Carnsore Point in 1979, spent some time living in the Glen of the Downs, camped on the M3 and threw insults at the guards at the Shell to Sea protests before ending up at the Central Bank.

    I am not saying you or anyone else falls into this category (not even saying there is such a category) but there are some out there who believe there is such a category and that any protest is full of people like that. Once again, I don't believe it but I have heard it muttered.


    P.S. No need for the language, it takes from the argument and encourages stereotyping


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    #286
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I'm getting really sick of seeing phrases like that thrown around. Being stereotyped is bad enough, but being stereotyped and not even told what that stereotype is? Are you f*cking KIDDING me?!
    I'll tell you what. When I see an article in the Farmers Journal encouraging people to join in, and not just Indymedia *, I'll believe you when you say it's not just "the usual suspects."

    * http://www.indymedia.ie/article/100658

    I found this image on the link above interesting. Are you telling me these topics are representative of the majority of the population?

    460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_timetable.jpg


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    #287
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    When I see an article in the Farmers Journal encouraging people to join in

    They'd be in Dawson Street, though.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #288
    Ben Hadad
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭Ben Hadad


    I think people are dismissing these protest out of hand without looking at the significance of these protests. Certainly in the USA, there is a sense that these protests are an attempt to engage with those in power by circumnavigating traditional channels of political protest. Traditional channels of political protest have been rendered useless for the vast majority of Americans due to media, lobby groups, and the rigid nature of party politics as well as a host of other reasons. This movement is a new departure in the sense that it totally shuns mainstream politics whilst being quite moderate. As such it show how extreme the US has become when the protesters are attempting to regain the centre.

    In our case, I cannot see these protests working as there is no such reason to circumnavigate our country's political system yet. Therefore it is just another protest really. Whilst I agree that those in charge need to be held accountable for past mistakes, at least here FF were turfed out on their ear and the bankers have been humiliated, and may serve some time.

    I say fair deuce to Irish Occupiers however I just don't really see the what it can achieve. Our problems were in the main caused by one decision made by a person now deceased which has totally ruined the finances of this country. Any problems incurred by individuals were all done in free market under no duress. The state should look after the rest, but I have never heard of a state having to help inhabitants who got into debt due to investment decisions.

    We are basically fighting an economic war of independence at the moment, and in war sacrifices need to be made. Sure things aren't ideal at the moment, but it is important that we regain full sovereignty.

    Anyway if there is anything Irish are good at, it's hardship.


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    #289
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Ben Hadad wrote: »
    Certainly in the USA, there is a sense that these protests are an attempt to engage with those in power by circumnavigating traditional channels of political protest. Traditional channels of political protest have been rendered useless for the vast majority of Americans due to media, lobby groups, and the rigid nature of party politics as well as a host of other reasons. This movement is a new departure in the sense that it totally shuns mainstream politics whilst being quite moderate. As such it show how extreme the US has become when the protesters are attempting to regain the centre.
    I agree with most of what you say, and it's great to see that the protests are moderate, but I can't agree that they are regaining the centre. They are very much "liberal" (in the US sense) and participants who consider themselves political would be overwhelmingly Democrat.

    The US protests at least have a driving (but largely unstated) objective to protest the massive disparity that has opened up in earnings between the top 1% and the rest. We have disparity here, but it's on a completely different scale in the US, with some hedge fund managers measuring their annual salary in billions. The lack of a welfare state and the squeezing of the two income family also means that the middle class in the US are in a much more perilous state than middle class people in Ireland.

    I don't get the Irish protests. It's all very well not having clear objectives to achieve, but at least the underlying rationale for protest needs to be clear. Being angry at "the system" is not a rationale. Greece today was instructive - going to the streets to protest "austerity" is all very well if people are living within their means, but it's clear Greeks (and Irish & Portugese etc) have an artificially high standard of living based on other people being willing to lend them money.


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    #290
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    They'd be in Dawson Street, though.
    And the Dail would have an interesting eau de provence from the menagerie of various farm animals that would be occupying it :) You've got to hand it to the farmers, a relatively small group, well organised and when they protest they do it in style.


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    #291
    IRISHREDSTAR
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭IRISHREDSTAR


    We a told every day that that this or that nasty policy is in the IMF plan/deal and that there is nothing they can do about it. Who has seen the IMF deal with ireland. Why are we not allowed to see it.


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    #292
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    IRISHREDSTAR wrote: »
    We a told every day that that this or that nasty policy is in the IMF plan/deal and that there is nothing they can do about it. Who has seen the IMF deal with ireland. Why are we not allowed to see it.

    Here you go: http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/EUIMFmemo.pdf

    The most recent update (yesterday) is here: http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/press_office/news_of_the_day/eu-imf-statement-3rd-review-mission-ireland-20-october-2011_en.htm

    Discussion thread on latest review: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75050028

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #293
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Godge wrote: »
    I don't know who he is talking about but I would assume he is talking about what some people would call the serial protesters. There is an impression out there that some people will protest at anything. They probably started at Carnsore Point in 1979, spent some time living in the Glen of the Downs, camped on the M3 and threw insults at the guards at the Shell to Sea protests before ending up at the Central Bank.

    And does it occur to you that if people protest often it's because they're completely and utterly furious at the almost total lack of democratic accountability in this country? The examples you give above are environmental protesters. That's part of what ODS is about but it's about so much more than that. Those environmentalists are part of the movement but only a fraction of it.
    I am not saying you or anyone else falls into this category (not even saying there is such a category) but there are some out there who believe there is such a category and that any protest is full of people like that. Once again, I don't believe it but I have heard it muttered.

    And why could I ask do people have such a problem with environmentalists? Sure sometimes they go a bit overboard but wouldn't you agree that the environment needs to be protected from the desecration being thrown at it? (Not to go off topic, just trying to understand the negative connotations you give to that 'catgory')
    P.S. No need for the language, it takes from the argument and encourages stereotyping

    The language came from the frustration of seeing a nameless stereotype in just about every thread on this and never actually getting a decent definition of that stereotype. Makes it impossible to counter it.


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    #294
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    hmmm wrote: »
    I'll tell you what. When I see an article in the Farmers Journal encouraging people to join in, and not just Indymedia *, I'll believe you when you say it's not just "the usual suspects."

    Indymedia is an activists' website, so obviously it's going to be used by activists to encourage an activists' campaign. There was a talk given yesterday on the history of indymedia as an open publishing platform, and I find myself wondering why it gets so much disdain?

    Don't just throw buzz words at me this time, actually explain, in a rational manner, WHY you object to it?
    * http://www.indymedia.ie/article/100658

    I found this image on the link above interesting. Are you telling me these topics are representative of the majority of the population?

    460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_timetable.jpg

    Anyone, absolutely anyone is free to go down to the camp and organize a workshop.
    The list of workshops above is indeed "left" oriented but that's because (no offense) the "right" for some reason attacks protest movements and instead advises people to bend over whenever oppression is around the corner.
    In other words: There are a lot of talks from left-leaning causes because the right won't come anywhere near the camp, for reasons I still don't understand. What does the right actually stand for? Defending corruption? :confused:

    Again, who exactly are "the usual suspects"? You mention this term again, you STILL haven't actually explained to me who you regard as the usual suspects...?


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    #295
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    hmmm wrote: »
    I agree with most of what you say, and it's great to see that the protests are moderate, but I can't agree that they are regaining the centre. They are very much "liberal" (in the US sense) and participants who consider themselves political would be overwhelmingly Democrat.

    Again, and I honestly mean no offense by this, but to me that seems to be because the right honestly believes that it's ok to pillage the general population to bail out their friends. In other words, croneyism on an absolutely massive scale. Both the republican and the democrat parties in the US are in bed with vested interests, but the general population of Dems don't approve of that, while it appears to me that the general population of republicans encourages it. Again, why? Don't you want democracy for everyone, not just for those who can give huge political donations?
    The US protests at least have a driving (but largely unstated) objective to protest the massive disparity that has opened up in earnings between the top 1% and the rest. We have disparity here, but it's on a completely different scale in the US, with some hedge fund managers measuring their annual salary in billions. The lack of a welfare state and the squeezing of the two income family also means that the middle class in the US are in a much more perilous state than middle class people in Ireland.

    This is purely my own opinion, but to me in Ireland (and indeed around the world) it's more about injustice than anything else. I firmly believe, as did those who declared independence from the US, that "all human beings are created equal". I don't personally believe that who you are should determine whether you get a fair trial and whether you get punished for your crimes.

    I'm going to bold the bit below to make sure it stands out:
    To me, the protests are about the fact that white collar crime is NOT punished, and is instead covered up by those in power.

    And it seems to me that those on the "right" defend and excuse white collar crime rather than insisting that it is punished.
    I don't get the Irish protests. It's all very well not having clear objectives to achieve, but at least the underlying rationale for protest needs to be clear. Being angry at "the system" is not a rationale.

    Why not exactly? The "system" is what is maintaining the injustice. Let's use a silly analogy here: If my system on my laptop is completely broken beyond repair, I format my disk and install a different one.

    That's what I want to see happen in the world. I don't want to see reform. I want to see the whole thing completely torn down and a new one put in place. This system is broken.
    What I don't claim to have is an alternative proposal. The point of the workshops at this camp and others is for the citizens to discuss, in an OPEN MINDED manner, alternatives.

    When I say open minded, what I mean is that in the mainstream media and other traditional avenues of debate, the debate is bound by the parameters of out existing society. I want a debate which is NOT bound by any such parameters. If we're talking about writing a new rule book, there's no need to discuss it within the terms of the previous one.
    Greece today was instructive - going to the streets to protest "austerity" is all very well if people are living within their means, but it's clear Greeks (and Irish & Portugese etc) have an artificially high standard of living based on other people being willing to lend them money.

    And I said in other threads, ALL money is a loan, none of it ever actually exists independently of the debt which created it. So how do you define your means? Productivity? That's clearly a farce, our economy was very productive during the boom but it turned out that what it was producing was utterly useless. Demand? This is also a farce, demand for houses is what pushed up the prices, but as we know, that demand didn't last.

    So how do you propose defining it? Stop for a second and think about that. We have the natural resources, the skills, and people who want jobs. Why can't we therefore build whatever we want? Just because an artificial concept, the oil in the gears, has stopped working?

    That's daft.


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    #296
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Both the republican and the democrat parties in the US are in bed with vested interests, but the general population of Dems don't approve of that, while it appears to me that the general population of republicans encourages it.
    Don't you see how offensive that sort of talk is? You've gone and dismissed 50% of the US electorate as borderline criminals. Can you not understand that tens of millions of people on "the right" have genuine beliefs that smaller government is better, that with rights come responsibilities and that the fewer laws encumbering enterprise means greater prosperity for all.

    You don't have to agree with their beliefs, but your arguments about Dame Street being some sort of inclusive ideal would hold more weight if you didn't simply dismiss those you disagree with as somehow all in bed with white collar crime.
    And it seems to me that those on the "right" defend and excuse white collar crime rather than insisting that it is punished.
    There you go again stereotyping people you disagree with. Explain then how a billionaire hedge fund manager received an 11 year sentence only last week.
    That's what I want to see happen in the world. I don't want to see reform. I want to see the whole thing completely torn down and a new one put in place. This system is broken.
    As I said, the usual talk from the usual suspects on the hard left. "Everything" has to change, "everything" has to be torn down and rebuilt, the system is oppressing us like man.

    Do you know why that doesn't work? Because the average person knows their life is not a complete disaster that needs to change entirely, they know things are not perfect and they know that they can get by as they are. They can manage small incremental changes, but the last thing they want is the chaos and anarchy of some revolution with vague promises of a better life at the end. People are innately conservative because you are asking them to throw themselves and their families off a cliff in the vague hope that some sort of socialist superman will appear to catch them as they fall.
    And I said in other threads, ALL money is a loan, none of it ever actually exists independently of the debt which created it.
    Gobbledygook.


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    #297
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    hmmm wrote: »
    You've gone and dismissed 50% of the US electorate as borderline criminals. Can you not understand that tens of millions of people on "the right" have genuine beliefs that smaller government is better, that with rights come responsibilities and that the fewer laws encumbering enterprise means greater prosperity for all.

    Debate on the U.S. and Republican 'Small Government' Vs Democrat 'Big Government', would perhaps be better would be better suited to the thread on Occupy Wall St.
    Concepts of big G Vs small G are not really pertinent to the Irish situation where we have big, centralised, incompetent government with no real calls for small government from any of the main political parties.
    However, I would like to suggest that as 'Small' government as advocated by sections of the U.S. Republican Party (and I see their point...although I do have an issue with Laissez Faire governments) is in favour of free market rules - in such a situation would a 'small' government have stepped in to rescue failed banks and bail out developers at a huge cost to the exchequer? It that not direct government interference in the markets?


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    #298
    Debtocracy
    Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭Debtocracy


    hmmm wrote: »
    There you go again stereotyping people you disagree with. Explain then how a billionaire hedge fund manager received an 11 year sentence only last week.

    Great, so that's 2 out 1,999 convicted. Take a look at Bill Black's efficiency in the Savings and Loans crisis.
    hmmm wrote: »
    Do you know why that doesn't work? Because the average person knows their life is not a complete disaster that needs to change entirely, they know things are not perfect and they know that they can get by as they are. They can manage small incremental changes, but the last thing they want is the chaos and anarchy of some revolution with vague promises of a better life at the end.

    What's very clear is that people, businesses or governments cannot manage the variance and chaos of a debt-based monetary system combined with an unregulated financial industry. The private and public sector of almost every Western economy is debt saturated (recessions in Canada and Australia to come). If you want stress in your life then the current monetary system is for you.

    Relying on small incremental changes to solve the problem will lead to another 10-15 years of misery (i.e. stagflation and debt slavery).
    hmmm wrote: »
    People are innately conservative because you are asking them to throw themselves and their families off a cliff in the vague hope that some sort of socialist superman will appear to catch them as they fall.

    People are innately conservative until you take away their resources, dignitiy and identity.


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    #299
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Again, and I honestly mean no offense by this, but to me that seems to be because the right honestly believes that it's ok to pillage the general population to bail out their friends. In other words, croneyism on an absolutely massive scale. Both the republican and the democrat parties in the US are in bed with vested interests, but the general population of Dems don't approve of that, while it appears to me that the general population of republicans encourages it. Again, why? Don't you want democracy for everyone, not just for those who can give huge political donations?



    This is purely my own opinion, but to me in Ireland (and indeed around the world) it's more about injustice than anything else. I firmly believe, as did those who declared independence from the US, that "all human beings are created equal". I don't personally believe that who you are should determine whether you get a fair trial and whether you get punished for your crimes.

    I'm going to bold the bit below to make sure it stands out:
    To me, the protests are about the fact that white collar crime is NOT punished, and is instead covered up by those in power.

    And it seems to me that those on the "right" defend and excuse white collar crime rather than insisting that it is punished.



    Why not exactly? The "system" is what is maintaining the injustice. Let's use a silly analogy here: If my system on my laptop is completely broken beyond repair, I format my disk and install a different one.

    That's what I want to see happen in the world. I don't want to see reform. I want to see the whole thing completely torn down and a new one put in place. This system is broken.
    What I don't claim to have is an alternative proposal. The point of the workshops at this camp and others is for the citizens to discuss, in an OPEN MINDED manner, alternatives.

    When I say open minded, what I mean is that in the mainstream media and other traditional avenues of debate, the debate is bound by the parameters of out existing society. I want a debate which is NOT bound by any such parameters. If we're talking about writing a new rule book, there's no need to discuss it within the terms of the previous one.



    And I said in other threads, ALL money is a loan, none of it ever actually exists independently of the debt which created it. So how do you define your means? Productivity? That's clearly a farce, our economy was very productive during the boom but it turned out that what it was producing was utterly useless. Demand? This is also a farce, demand for houses is what pushed up the prices, but as we know, that demand didn't last.

    So how do you propose defining it? Stop for a second and think about that. We have the natural resources, the skills, and people who want jobs. Why can't we therefore build whatever we want? Just because an artificial concept, the oil in the gears, has stopped working?

    That's daft.


    There is a legitimate view out there that the problem isn't the system, the problem is the way that the system has operated in Ireland over the last 30 years under the malign influence of Fianna Fail.

    This view would therefore support reform of white collar crime legislation, the elimination of cartels (doctors, medical, lawyers), tighter regulation of the financial industry, reform of the tax and social welfare systems to ensure fairer redistribution and a real incentive to work rather than sit on your arse, a system that rewards risk-takers but doesn't bail them out if their risks blow up. This view would also say that the first task is to take control of our own economic sovereignty.

    You know, the kind of view that led the people to elect the current Government with the largest mandate ever seen. Your views, anarchist in nature, are out of line with the majority view in the country as you don't get the picture I have painted. That is why the protests are not likely to get support.

    By the way I was fascinated with one statement in your post right at the end where you say we have the natural resources and the skills. Would you care to elaborate on the extent of the natural resources that Ireland has and the unique skills its people posess?


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    #300
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    hmmm wrote: »
    Don't you see how offensive that sort of talk is? You've gone and dismissed 50% of the US electorate as borderline criminals. Can you not understand that tens of millions of people on "the right" have genuine beliefs that smaller government is better, that with rights come responsibilities and that the fewer laws encumbering enterprise means greater prosperity for all.

    Can't you see that it's also offensive when people in these threads use terms like "usual suspects" and "loony left"? If I'm being irritable it's a response to the rubbish being posted in here regarding the protesters.
    Secondly I don't really see how I'm calling Republicans borderline criminals. I'm simply pointing out that while they rant on about "small government" they seem to have no problem with unregulated corporate sectors running completely out of control and getting far, far too big. Don't forget that deregulating the financial sector - and thus allowing it to run absolutely wild for a decade - was allegedly a "small government" initiative. Whether the results were the intention or the side effect, the bottom line is that's what we ended up with.

    Secondly, I ask again why the right in general bashes people who protest against white collar crime. Where's the logic in allowing scandals and cover ups? Where's the logic in opposing democratic accountability? Why for instance when Wikileaks exposes a scandal, does the right attack the fact of the leak but turn a blind eye to the contents of it? Why do they object to laws against corporate monopolies and secrecy? etc?
    You don't have to agree with their beliefs, but your arguments about Dame Street being some sort of inclusive ideal would hold more weight if you didn't simply dismiss those you disagree with as somehow all in bed with white collar crime.

    Oh the unbelievable irony. My dismissal of those who disagree with me was a bitter reaction to their dismissal of us as unemployed pothead dole scroungers. I object to the ridicule of the left just as much as you object to my bashing of the right.
    There you go again stereotyping people you disagree with.

    Oh the irony. How many times have you used the phrase "the usual suspects" in here?
    Explain then how a billionaire hedge fund manager received an 11 year sentence only last week.

    Good. We need to see more of that. A LOT more. Why hasn't Seanie been up on charges yet for fiddling Anglo's loan book?
    As I said, the usual talk from the usual suspects on the hard left.

    There you go again stereotyping people you disagree with. :rolleyes:
    "Everything" has to change, "everything" has to be torn down and rebuilt, the system is oppressing us like man.

    Why do you object so much to the idea of changing it? Do you think the god awful system we have now is actually going to improve?
    Do you know why that doesn't work? Because the average person knows their life is not a complete disaster that needs to change entirely, they know things are not perfect and they know that they can get by as they are. They can manage small incremental changes, but the last thing they want is the chaos and anarchy of some revolution with vague promises of a better life at the end. People are innately conservative because you are asking them to throw themselves and their families off a cliff in the vague hope that some sort of socialist superman will appear to catch them as they fall.

    Wow.
    I'm not a socialist. Not by a long shot. That's one stereotype of me you have got 100% and absolutely wrong. It couldn't be further from the truth. I'm socially left wing. I'm economically centrist. If I was a socialist I'd approve of state nationalization, for instance - have you EVER seen me defending the nationalization of the banks? I regard that as one of the most criminal decisions taken by an Irish minister in the history of this state. Your attempts to bracket me into a particular group are far, far too simplistic.

    Second of all, where have I ever said that my entire life was a complete disaster? I can get by as I am, and I'm sure a lot of people can. This isn't a personal thing. I'm not fighting for change for personal reasons. There's nothing in my own personal life which calls for it. But I'm tired of opening a newspaper and seeing the same crap over and over again. Our entire financial and economic system is a complete and utter mess. Some of the concepts which underpin it are so bizarre it doesn't even bear thinking about.

    What I'm arguing for is a system where power is distributed enough so that NO bank or company is "too big to fail" and the taxpayer will never be asked to bail out crooks ever, ever again.
    I'm also asking for a system in which there are real penalties for those crooks.
    Finally, I'm asking for a system wherein money circulation actually coexists with supply and demand. Supply and demand should be controlled by production capacity and consumers' desire for products. If I'm physically able to build something and there are people out there who want jobs and want my product, that should be it. The whole thing shouldn't fall apart just because some bank has screwed themselves up and the oil for the cogs won't move.
    Gobbledygook.

    Do you actually know where money comes from or are you just assuming I'm not telling the truth?
    It's issued as a loan by the central bank. With interest owed. There is always more owed in interest than there is in circulation. Doesn't this strike you as a bit mad?

    Our current system of money circulation is like a game of musical chairs - if the CD player skips or stops for a second, for whatever reason, there aren't nearly enough chairs. Most of your money exists only as a number in a book which is why when everyone tries to get their money out at once, the bank doesn't have enough and collapses.

    This is an absolutely insane way to run an economic system.


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    #301
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Godge wrote: »
    There is a legitimate view out there that the problem isn't the system, the problem is the way that the system has operated in Ireland over the last 30 years under the malign influence of Fianna Fail.

    If that was the case, we wouldn't have a WORLDWIDE economic s***storm taking place right now. The problem goes far deeper than any one country's corrupt regime.
    This view would therefore support reform of white collar crime legislation, the elimination of cartels (doctors, medical, lawyers), tighter regulation of the financial industry, reform of the tax and social welfare systems to ensure fairer redistribution and a real incentive to work rather than sit on your arse, a system that rewards risk-takers but doesn't bail them out if their risks blow up. This view would also say that the first task is to take control of our own economic sovereignty.

    I agree with all of that.
    You know, the kind of view that led the people to elect the current Government with the largest mandate ever seen.

    I voted for this government. By the way, they also told me pre-election that gamblers would be forced to pay for their own mess rather than me paying for it.

    2 months after electing them...
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0401/1224293542457.html
    Your views, anarchist in nature, are out of line with the majority view in the country as you don't get the picture I have painted. That is why the protests are not likely to get support.

    ANARCHIST?! :eek:

    Where in God's name are you getting an anarchist ideology from what I've posted?
    By the way I was fascinated with one statement in your post right at the end where you say we have the natural resources and the skills. Would you care to elaborate on the extent of the natural resources that Ireland has and the unique skills its people posess?

    I wasn't talking specifically about Ireland there, I meant in general. I'll use a US example because I remember forming this theory at the time:

    The Auto industry in the US had to be bailed out by the taxpayer. Why?

    We have the knowledge of how to build cars.
    We have the equipment and materials required to build cars.
    We have people who want the cars.
    We have people who want jobs.

    What's missing? That should be enough to make it work. Oh wait - the money needed to make all of that go around doesn't actually exist, and because a bank made a complete bollocks of its job, none of it is going to work. The car factory stands empty and dies, despite the demand for its products and the unemployment level.

    That's insane.


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