GET SOME!!

Tabnabs · 11-10-2011 4:53pm #1

Not quite Apocalypse Now, but impressive none the less

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzSphdtgQeQ

Taken from

When Navies Fire Back – Top Photos of Pirate Skiff Destruction

discus · 15-10-2011 6:39pm

I love seeing the fight brought to those bastards.

clonmahon · 16-10-2011 4:03am

Tabnabs wrote: »

When Navies Fire Back – Top Photos of Pirate Skiff Destruction

This is one of the most hilarious photos I've ever seen. A vessel that costs millions, staffed by well paid us navy personnel, operating many miles from home, the cost of it all must be fantastic. And they are destroying a crappy wooden boat worth at most a thousand euro and probably a lot less, this is target famine indeed. Wouldn't it just be cheaper to bomb the pirate bases with dollars, and why are they not at home in the USA doing something about the banksters, who are doing more damage to the world economy that Somali pirates. Idiots.

mikemac · 16-10-2011 4:36am

Noob question but do ships not fly flags anymore? Is there an operational reason for not having a flag?

Looking at that ship I can't identify it

goldie fish · 16-10-2011 9:34am

mikemac wrote: »

Noob question but do ships not fly flags anymore? Is there an operational reason for not having a flag?

Looking at that ship I can't identify it

The flag, when at sea is flown from the stern. Its just out of shot as it is under the helideck.
It is USS Ashland (LSD-48) a Whidbey Island class Dock Landing ship of the US Navy.

goldie fish · 16-10-2011 9:35am

clonmahon wrote: »

This is one of the most hilarious photos I've ever seen. A vessel that costs millions, staffed by well paid us navy personnel, operating many miles from home, the cost of it all must be fantastic. And they are destroying a crappy wooden boat worth at most a thousand euro and probably a lot less, this is target famine indeed. Wouldn't it just be cheaper to bomb the pirate bases with dollars, and why are they not at home in the USA doing something about the banksters, who are doing more damage to the world economy that Somali pirates. Idiots.

The cost to world shipping from piracy justifies the Naval Presence.

clonmahon · 16-10-2011 12:02pm

goldie fish wrote: »

The cost to world shipping from piracy justifies the Naval Presence.

I repeat the damage to the global economy done by these pirates is tiny compared to what the banksters are doing, these idiots should be in New York arresting the real pirates, who have destroyed nations. Buying off the Somali pirates would be a fraction of the cost of this idiotic operation.

Before super trawlers vacuumed out the fishing waters off the horn of Africa these people were fishing. What did we think was going to happen when we destroyed their means of making a living. How moral was it to take fish out of the mouths of hungry African children to feed it to obese westerners.

Again I say Idiots, the western world is run by a bunch of gob****es. And the above photo is indicative of how stupid they are.

With all due respect Tabnabs and discus, cop on chat like "get some" and "bastards" is pathetic. These are real people in the horn of Africa and people there are dying in a famine. Meanwhile these idiots float off the coast in their multi million dollar machines sinking crappy wooden boats. Some serious political analysis is in order not glib comparisons to movies.

Local-womanizer · 16-10-2011 12:09pm

The ships would have trouble manoeuvring on the streets of western cities!

But seriously, these pirates are criminals, and always will be. They are hated in their local communities as they are just thugs.

Taking out these pirates benefits everyone, the local community included.

alanmcqueen · 16-10-2011 1:03pm

clonmahon wrote: »

I repeat the damage to the global economy done by these pirates is tiny compared to what the banksters are doing, these idiots should be in New York arresting the real pirates, who have destroyed nations. Buying off the Somali pirates would be a fraction of the cost of this idiotic operation.

Before super trawlers vacuumed out the fishing waters off the horn of Africa these people were fishing. What did we think was going to happen when we destroyed their means of making a living. How moral was it to take fish out of the mouths of hungry African children to feed it to obese westerners.

Again I say Idiots, the western world is run by a bunch of gob****es. And the above photo is indicative of how stupid they are.

With all due respect Tabnabs and discus, cop on chat like "get some" and "bastards" is pathetic. These are real people in the horn of Africa and people there are dying in a famine. Meanwhile these idiots float off the coast in their multi million dollar machines sinking crappy wooden boats. Some serious political analysis is in order not glib comparisons to movies.

Well put.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates-1225817.html

goldie fish · 16-10-2011 1:26pm

clonmahon wrote: »

I repeat the damage to the global economy done by these pirates is tiny compared to what the banksters are doing, these idiots should be in New York arresting the real pirates, who have destroyed nations. Buying off the Somali pirates would be a fraction of the cost of this idiotic operation.

Before super trawlers vacuumed out the fishing waters off the horn of Africa these people were fishing. What did we think was going to happen when we destroyed their means of making a living. How moral was it to take fish out of the mouths of hungry African children to feed it to obese westerners.

Again I say Idiots, the western world is run by a bunch of gob****es. And the above photo is indicative of how stupid they are.

With all due respect Tabnabs and discus, cop on chat like "get some" and "bastards" is pathetic. These are real people in the horn of Africa and people there are dying in a famine. Meanwhile these idiots float off the coast in their multi million dollar machines sinking crappy wooden boats. Some serious political analysis is in order not glib comparisons to movies.

You greatly under estimate the cost of piracy to sea trade in what is the main shipping route for Everything going from Asia to Europe and North America.
This isn't a few fishermen struggling to earn a crust, if it were true, then Irish trawlers would be doing the same off our coasts, as we decommissioned half the fleet some years ago.
This is a campaign against world shipping bankrolled by Al Quaida. Where do you suppoose these "starving fishermen" get their endless supplies of fuel for their high powered outboards, and endless supplies of guns, ammunition and rockets? At the same time, Al Shabaab Islamists are fighting to sieze power from the Recently formed Coalition in the failed Somali state.
Last time I looked, Fuel for outboard motors was not high on the priority of aid convoys to famine raged countries.

clonmahon · 16-10-2011 1:31pm

Local-womanizer wrote: »

The ships would have trouble manoeuvring on the streets of western cities!

But seriously, these pirates are criminals, and always will be. They are hated in their local communities as they are just thugs.

Taking out these pirates benefits everyone, the local community included.

You either don't understand what I am saying or have just ignored it. You say the pirates are criminals and thugs. I say they they are now, but they were fishermen who have had their means of making a living destroyed by the moronic global economy. They are desperate people with no other option. Would you choose to be a pirate if you had any other option.

The international community is spending all this money and making all this noise about dealing with a minor menace off the horn of Africa, while the banksters are destroying the world. Explain the logic of that.

The amount of money being spent on this operation would be a huge amount of money if injected into the Somali economy, give these people jobs and money and you think they would be risking their necks at piracy.

You say they are hated in their local community. You know this how ?. What is you source for this.

You say "taking out these pirates benefits everyone, the local community included". Again I repeat East Africa is in the grips of a famine. I can just see it, famine victim watching his kids die, thinking it could be worse, there's nothing to eat but at least the pirate menace is being controlled. Get real.

You say "the ships would have trouble manoeuvring on the streets of western cities!", I say they can easily get in range of Wall Street, Park Avenue or the city of London none of which are far from water. If they decided to take out Jamie Diamond they could easily manouver into a position to do so.

So please will someone explain to me why they are burning crappy wooden boats off the horn of Africa, while Jamie Diamond (CEO JP Morgan) is still free to walk around and destroy the global economy. This will require some serious political analysis not just the repetition of inane slogans. The real pirates are in New York and London.

clonmahon · 16-10-2011 2:09pm

goldie fish wrote: »

You greatly under estimate the cost of piracy to sea trade in what is the main shipping route for Everything going from Asia to Europe and North America.

I have no idea of the cost of Somali piracy, but let me say this as simply as I can it is small change compared to the economic damage being done by the banksters. Yet millions of dollars are being spent pursuing some small time pirates in crappy wooden boats, while the real pirates are still free to walk the streets of New York and London.

goldie fish wrote: »

This isn't a few fishermen struggling to earn a crust, if it were true, then Irish trawlers would be doing the same off our coasts, as we decommissioned half the fleet some years ago.

I don't know how to answer that one. As my mother would say if I have to explain it there is no point. But hell I will anyway, Ireland is a viable western state, with a vibrant civil society, strong communities, a world class social welfare system, a benign climate, good soil, ample water and in spite of the downturn still a place of opportunity. The fact that unemployed Irish fishermen have not turned to piracy maybe related to this. Some are no doubt too busy drinking their dole money in seaside pubs. Again I say this situation demands rigorous political analysis not glib slogans.

goldie fish wrote: »

This is a campaign against world shipping bankrolled by Al Quaida. Where do you suppoose these "starving fishermen" get their endless supplies of fuel for their high powered outboards, and endless supplies of guns, ammunition and rockets? At the same time, Al Shabaab Islamists are fighting to sieze power from the Recently formed Coalition in the failed Somali state.

Al Quaida, Al Quaida, Al Quaida panic panic panic Al Quaida are going to kill us all in our beds. Al Quaida are a rag bag guerrilla group, a pin prick to our civilization. Sorry my man but this is just straight US propaganda. The real terrorists are in JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs. More people are killed in traffic accidents every week worldwide than Al Quaida will ever kill.

You write "endless supplies of fuel for their high powered outboards, and endless supplies of guns, ammunition and rockets" You see some great global conspiracy threatening world trade. I see some poor desperate people with a few AK47s and RPGs in crappy boats who have no other option. If they are so well financed how come they don't have better boats that the crappy one in the photo. I bet Jamie Diamond has a better boat than that.

Tabnabs · 16-10-2011 2:23pm

clonmahon wrote: »

With all due respect Tabnabs and discus, cop on chat like "get some" and "bastards" is pathetic. These are real people in the horn of Africa and people there are dying in a famine. Meanwhile these idiots float off the coast in their multi million dollar machines sinking crappy wooden boats. Some serious political analysis is in order not glib comparisons to movies.

Why don't you wind you neck in eh clonmahon?

I am absolutely delighted to see every one of these "bastards" wiped out. I have been to the Malacca straits, west Africa, South China Sea, Old Bahama Channel, Mozambique Channel and the Persian Gulf, all areas of contention where we maintained pirate watches and had orders that I wouldn't disclose in writing. These "starving Africans" are scum, targeting unarmed civilians who pose no threat to them or their country. This is not a phenomenon restricted to the Indian Ocean either, I've lived with the threat of armed and desperate criminals rounding me and my colleagues up and being detained by them for days, weeks or months with no certain outcome.

So until you have personal and first hand experience of the situation, please don't come the high and mighty with me.

clonmahon · 16-10-2011 3:09pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

Why don't you wind you neck in eh clonmahon?

A bit off topic there, but a very clever point none the less

Tabnabs wrote: »

I am absolutely delighted to see every one of these "bastards" wiped out. I have been to the Malacca straits, west Africa, South China Sea, Old Bahama Channel, Mozambique Channel and the Persian Gulf, all areas of contention where we maintained pirate watches and had orders that I wouldn't disclose in writing. These "starving Africans" are scum, targeting unarmed civilians who pose no threat to them or their country. This is not a phenomenon restricted to the Indian Ocean either, I've lived with the threat of armed and desperate criminals rounding me and my colleagues up and being detained by them for days, weeks or months with no certain outcome.

Given these views how are you any better than those you dismiss as bastards. You are exhibiting the same disregard for human life and rights as those you regard as "scum". Explain the moral difference to me please.

How do you feel about the death of all those innocent civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. How do you feel about the wikileak video of the US helicopter killing civilians in Iraq. Does that cause you the same anger as the action of pirates does. Was that helicopter pilot "scum" and would you support him being "wiped out".

Where do such quaint concepts as due process and the rule of law fit in with your worldview.

Tabnabs wrote: »

So until you have personal and first hand experience of the situation, please don't come the high and mighty with me.

My apologies I was attempting to see the pirates as human beings and to understand their motivations. I am very sorry that describing them as human beings is coming the high and mighty.

I am still trying to find out why the little pirates in Somalia are worse than the big pirates in New York, any takers on that one.

clonmahon · 16-10-2011 3:39pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

I've lived with the threat of armed and desperate criminals rounding me and my colleagues up and being detained by them for days, weeks or months with no certain outcome.

Quick question did these "desperate criminals" come to your home, into your country and subject you to this ordeal. Or did you and your colleagues have to travel to someone elses country to meet these "scum".

savagecabbages · 16-10-2011 5:32pm

clonmahon wrote: »

I am still trying to find out why the little pirates in Somalia are worse than the big pirates in New York, any takers on that one.

You are comparing accountants with terrorists in the Military forum. That's the first problem. You also clearly have your mind made up on the issue you brought into this thread so its not up for debate. I'm not going to tell you how one is worse than the other. These religious extremists who are trying to enforce their way of life upon us all would have no qualms about slitting your throat, or my throat with a knife. They see us as unbelievers and would like nothing better than to wipe everyone in the western world out. Bankers, protesters, politicians, ALL OF US.

Lemming · 16-10-2011 5:41pm

clonmahon wrote: »

Where do such quaint concepts as due process and the rule of law fit in with your worldview.

And the hypocrite's mask slips. In your haste to pillory Tabnabs, you fail to apply your own moral indignation to those you seek to defend. Those who, with no hint of irony, would not be slow to point the barrel of a gun at your head, hold you indefinitely and try to ransom you (until they couldn't get any more mileage out of you ... ). The same people who have no respect for notions such as "due process" or the "rule of law".

Human beings they may be, but the worst atrocities in mankind's history have been at the hands of ... human beings. Rather than trying to apply some sacred cow defence, how about you judge them on their actions. These pirates have shown they are willing to use force against other human beings for a mixture of money and/or extremist religious ideology. That unfortunately means that other than appeasing them, you're going to have to use force, or the threat of force to make them comply with the "rule of law".

Tabnabs · 16-10-2011 6:00pm

clonmahon wrote: »

Quick question did these "desperate criminals" come to your home, into your country and subject you to this ordeal. Or did you and your colleagues have to travel to someone elses country to meet these "scum".

Are you for real? Genuine question? Do you have any concept whatsoever of how commercial shipping operates, the areas of operation of these scum? Did you understand the point I made with reference to the disparity of locations I identified?

You defend the actions of a common criminal and seek to justify it by saying it was on some sort of par with military action in Iraq (BTW, been there too under "allied" escort) and bankers in New York?!

Did these "desperate criminals" come to my home, into my country and subject you to this ordeal? No, because we took prudent precautions so as not to be on the wrong end of an AK47 or missile launcher. Was I glad that we could pick up a sat-phone and call in assistance? Yes, incredibly glad and very grateful.

How would you like to be subjected to the very real threat of armed kidnapping when sitting at your office desk, on your commute and/or when asleep in your bed? The never ending threat when passing through hazardous areas.

No, you're right, they're misunderstood and it's all the West's fault...

clonmahon · 16-10-2011 6:42pm

savagecabbages wrote: »

You are comparing accountants with terrorists in the Military forum. That's the first problem.

I am comparing the super rich with Somali Pirates and saying that the super rich are wreaking havoc on the world on a vast scale, with total impunity. They are waging economic war on us all. This economic war is robbing us all and it is killing people all over the world. I am saying that the developed world has waged economic war on the people of Somalia and the pirates are the inevitable effect of that cause.

Dismissing the pirates as bastards and scum is good propaganda but it will not win the war. They are real people like me and you, if they are to be successfully dealt with the political, social and economic context in which they operate will have to be understood.

“war is the continuation of politics by other means” said Carl von Clausewitz. With out this discussing military affairs is a boys own affair, focused on tactics and equipment. I am interested in the politics of this war and why the developed world has fixated on this group of pirates. If you read the link poster by alanmcqueen on the previous page it includes the following passage.

“The story of the 2009 war on piracy was best summarised by another pirate, who lived and died in the fourth century BC. He was captured and brought to Alexander the Great, who demanded to know "what he meant by keeping possession of the sea." The pirate smiled, and responded: "What you mean by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you, who do it with a great fleet, are called emperor." “ This is what I mean by the politics of war. The technology may change but the propaganda of the rich and powerful against the poor and weak never changes.

savagecabbages wrote: »

You also clearly have your mind made up on the issue you brought into this thread so its not up for debate.

I have strong opinions about the politics of this war on piracy. And am prepared to debate them vigorously

savagecabbages wrote: »

I'm not going to tell you how one is worse than the other. These religious extremists who are trying to enforce their way of life upon us all would have no qualms about slitting your throat, or my throat with a knife. They see us as unbelievers and would like nothing better than to wipe everyone in the western world out. Bankers, protesters, politicians, ALL OF US.

This is absolutely true that is their ambition, but they are sorely lacking in the means to do so. If we learn anything from history is that such insurgents depend for their success on their powerful enemy overreacting. This is why without the political context a discussion of military affairs is just guff. And the same mistakes will be made again and again.

clonmahon · 16-10-2011 6:59pm

Lemming wrote: »

And the hypocrite's mask slips. In your haste to pillory Tabnabs, you fail to apply your own moral indignation to those you seek to defend. Those who, with no hint of irony, would not be slow to point the barrel of a gun at your head, hold you indefinitely and try to ransom you (until they couldn't get any more mileage out of you ... ). The same people who have no respect for notions such as "due process" or the "rule of law".

I have at no point suggested that Somali pirates are great guys. I have suggested they are desperate people and I have no doubt they do desperate things. I am under no illusions that they have no respect for due process and the rule of law. And that if they could they would kidnap me and put a gun to my head.

This is all true, but so what they are pirates, they are not pretending to be something their not. But the west constantly claims to operate on a higher moral plain. You cannot become barbaric because those you are fighting are also barbaric, and then claim there is no moral equivalence between you and the enemy. That is hypocrisy.

I am not applying the same moral standards to pirates as I do to sovereign western states. Pirates have not signed the UN charter on human rights. I expect pirates to behave like pirates I expect western states to measure up to the own rhetoric or else discard it.

savagecabbages · 16-10-2011 7:16pm

clonmahon wrote: »

I am comparing the super rich with Somali Pirates and saying that the super rich are wreaking havoc on the world on a vast scale, with total impunity. They are waging economic war on us all. This economic war is robbing us all and it is killing people all over the world. I am saying that the developed world has waged economic war on the people of Somalia and the pirates are the inevitable effect of that cause.

Dismissing the pirates as bastards and scum is good propaganda but it will not win the war. They are real people like me and you, if they are to be successfully dealt with the political, social and economic context in which they operate will have to be understood.

“war is the continuation of politics by other means” said Carl von Clausewitz. With out this discussing military affairs is a boys own affair, focused on tactics and equipment. I am interested in the politics of this war and why the developed world has fixated on this group of pirates. If you read the link poster by alanmcqueen on the previous page it includes the following passage.

“The story of the 2009 war on piracy was best summarised by another pirate, who lived and died in the fourth century BC. He was captured and brought to Alexander the Great, who demanded to know "what he meant by keeping possession of the sea." The pirate smiled, and responded: "What you mean by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you, who do it with a great fleet, are called emperor." “ This is what I mean by the politics of war. The technology may change but the propaganda of the rich and powerful against the poor and weak never changes.

I have strong opinions about the politics of this war on piracy. And am prepared to debate them vigorously

This is absolutely true that is their ambition, but they are sorely lacking in the means to do so. If we learn anything from history is that such insurgents depend for their success on their powerful enemy overreacting. This is why without the political context a discussion of military affairs is just guff. And the same mistakes will be made again and again.

You should probably take your grievances with the 'west' as you call it over to the politics forum then. If we go down the line of what caused the Somali state to fail and how to fix the mess thats been left behind we'll be going waaay off topic for a thread in this forum...
This thread is about the anti-piracy operations, however funny you find it. We all know the Somali situation started out a political one, but it started affecting global shipping, and what we see is a response to the criminal activities carried out by the pirates. Nothing more, nothing less.
If the piracy stopped tomorrow, the anti-piracy patrols would stop soon afterwards.

Crann na Beatha · 16-10-2011 7:29pm

This post has been deleted.

clonmahon · 16-10-2011 7:30pm

savagecabbages wrote: »

You should probably take your grievances with the 'west' as you call it over to the politics forum then.

Fair point, I respectfully bow out.

alanmcqueen · 16-10-2011 8:54pm

clonmahon wrote: »

Fair point, I respectfully bow out.

Very well thought out position and well defended Clonmahon. Well done.

discus · 16-10-2011 10:26pm

clonmahon wrote: »

Fair point, I respectfully bow out.

alanmcqueen wrote: »

Very well thought out position and well defended Clonmahon. Well done.

What are you pair like?

alanmcqueen · 16-10-2011 10:31pm

discus wrote: »

I love seeing the fight brought to those bastards.

-from an armchair.

clonmahon · 17-10-2011 9:27am

discus wrote: »

What are you pair like?

I bowed respectfully out but I’m back because of this juvenile comment.

When I add this to

“Why don't you wind you neck in eh clonmahon?”

And

“the hypocrite's mask slips”

I’m seriously impressed by the standard of right wing intellect on this forum.

I can see no problem in seeking to discuss the social, economic and political context of the war on Somali piracy on a military forum. I posed two simple questions in my first post on this thread, the only one who has made any attempt to answer them was savagecabbages.

My first question is given that the economic and social damage the super rich and the bankers have done to the world economy is on a scale vastly greater than that caused by Somali pirates. Why the obsession with small time pirates. Simple question.

Please don’t tell me again how terrible pirates are, we can all take that as read. Pirates are a pretty desperate group of people, they do desperate things. They have no respect for the rule of law, they disrupt world trade, they are a menace to seafarers going about their legitimate business. They murder people etc. Agreed. But why the obsession with small time pirates who cause small time damage, when the banking and super rich pirates are laying whole nations to waste and robbing us all.

The second question I posed is given the cost of this naval operation, would it not be cheaper to buy off the pirates with cash.

Two simple questions guys any takers. And never mind the juvenile name calling.

clonmahon · 17-10-2011 9:33am

savagecabbages wrote: »

You should probably take your grievances with the 'west' as you call it

My grievance is not with the west, I have repeatedly used phrases like the developed world in this thread. It was not just western trawlers that fished out Somali waters and is not just western naval forces operating off the horn of Africa. Anyway I am not expressing grievances I am expressing a political view.

savagecabbages wrote: »

“If we go down the line of what caused the Somali state to fail and how to fix the mess”

This is the first mention on this thread of what caused the Somali state to fail and how to fix the mess.

savagecabbages wrote: »

“This thread is about the anti-piracy operations”

I am seeking to understand the politics of the military operation, which it seems to me are rife with double think and propaganda. It is legitimate to question the social, political and economic context within which this war is being conducted, or should we keep it at the boys own level of tactics, weapons and banal slogans like “get some”.

savagecabbages wrote: »

“If the piracy stopped tomorrow, the anti-piracy patrols would stop soon afterwards.”

That not very likely is it, with a famine raging in the horn of Africa.

krissovo · 17-10-2011 9:43am

Nice drills by the gunner, very impressive gunnery skills. Disciplined and accurate.

When I went to the careers office many moons ago I got laughed at by the recruiter for wanting to be a door gunner:o Told me I watched too many Vietnam movies.

clonmahon · 17-10-2011 9:51am

Tabnabs wrote: »

You defend the actions of a common criminal and seek to justify it by saying it was on some sort of par with military action in Iraq

You misunderstand me, I am not saying the Iraq war is on a par with piracy, I am saying it is far worse in its impact on innocent civilians. This is objectively true, the disparity in numbers of dead civilians is vast.

You described pirates as "scum targeting unarmed civilians who pose no threat to them or their country" and justified "wiping them" out on this basis. I asked you earlier if you had seen the Wikileak video of the helicopter in Iraq killing innocent civilians and did that rise similar anger with you.

Clearly the answer is no. If the rich and the powerful slaughter innocent civilians on a grand scale in a pointless war, that is all right with you. If the super rich and banksters lay the global economy waste that's all right with you. This is what I mean guys your thinking is clouded by propaganda and double think.

You are wallowing in selective outrage. This calling the Somali pirates common criminals is again meaningless and banal. I repeat there is a political, social and economic context in which the pirates operate. To deny this and bladder on about common criminals is not an intellectual argument but a partisan bleet. Or even worse the banal repetition of witless propaganda.

discus · 17-10-2011 10:02am

alanmcqueen wrote: »

-from an armchair.

Hi there. Discus is the name, Royal Artillery is my game.

iceage · 17-10-2011 10:16am

Que Fas et Gloria Ducunt.

Impressed the filter let that one through

!

goldie fish · 17-10-2011 12:22pm

discus wrote: »

Hi there. Discus is the name, Royal Artillery is my game.

So its more of a stool than an armchair

Lemming · 17-10-2011 1:54pm

clonmahon wrote: »

I bowed respectfully out but I’m back because of this juvenile comment.

When I add this to

“Why don't you wind you neck in eh clonmahon?”

And

“the hypocrite's mask slips”

I’m seriously impressed by the standard of right wing intellect on this forum.

Highlight within the above post is mine, to follow after the below ...

clonmahon wrote: »

This is all true, but so what they are pirates, they are not pretending to be something their not. But the west constantly claims to operate on a higher moral plain. You cannot become barbaric because those you are fighting are also barbaric, and then claim there is no moral equivalence between you and the enemy. That is hypocrisy.

I am not applying the same moral standards to pirates as I do to sovereign western states. Pirates have not signed the UN charter on human rights. I expect pirates to behave like pirates I expect western states to measure up to the own rhetoric or else discard it.

The above ^^^ is why you are a total hypocrate. Nothing right-wing about it; you sir, are a hypocrite.

Why?

Despite your best (and utterly dishonest) protests at not applying the same moral standards between soveriegn states & pirates, you ARE trying to apply them. Trying to absolve one party of any sense of responsibility for what are acts that they have acted out of their own free will whilst pillorying the other party when taking to task is rank hypocrasy of the highest order.

So what that they are pirates. They're human beings right? That's your rallying cry isn't it? Well guess what, this group of human beings have decided that they're going to rob, intimidate, kidnap, kill, etc. for money, with perhaps a smattering of convenient extreme political or religious ideology married into the mix to "justify" it.

So what lets them off the hook? What makes them so different that when they point a gun at the naval team trying to bring them to task (much like any police force around the world with a criminal) they should be treated with kind words and kid gloves. If this were on land, you wouldn't give a sh*t because it'd be the local police handling the matter, but because it's "the west" you're out banging your drum. Hypocrite.

As for your two "questions"; one is contemptable, the other absurd in its obviousness. I'll let you figure out which is which

clonmahon wrote:

My first question is given that the economic and social damage the super rich and the bankers have done to the world economy is on a scale vastly greater than that caused by Somali pirates. Why the obsession with small time pirates. Simple question.

Simple question. But you've asked two questions, so which is it?

Simple answer #1: bankers & their ilk can be tackled with law and legislation by their respective countries.

Simple answer #2: "Small time" pirates that get multi million dollar ransoms on oil tankers and the like ..... they are a growing menace on the seas and have been for several years, with several very high profile hijackings and/or murders.

clonmahon wrote:

The second question I posed is given the cost of this naval operation, would it not be cheaper to buy off the pirates with cash.

I give you a single quote from history;

"Peace in our time".

tricky D · 17-10-2011 3:37pm

clonmahon wrote: »

My first question is given that the economic and social damage the super rich and the bankers have done to the world economy is on a scale vastly greater than that caused by Somali pirates. Why the obsession with small time pirates. Simple question.

8<

Agreed. But why the obsession with small time pirates who cause small time damage, when the banking and super rich pirates are laying whole nations to waste and robbing us all.

Small time??? Given that piracy in this area is estimated to be costing around a billion dollars or more every year blows your argument out of the water (pun intended).

clonmahon · 17-10-2011 3:46pm

Lemming wrote: »

The above ^^^ is why you are a total hypocrate. Nothing right-wing about it; you sir, are a hypocrite.

Despite your best (and utterly dishonest) protests at not applying the same moral standards between soveriegn states & pirates, you ARE trying to apply them. Trying to absolve one party of any sense of responsibility for what are acts that they have acted out of their own free will whilst pillorying the other party when taking to task is rank hypocrasy of the highest order.

Apologies for being pedantic but clearly hypocrite is not the word you are looking for here. You seem to be suggesting that my position on moral culpability is illogical. I am simply stating that western democracies use all kinds of high flying moralistic rhetoric but that their actions often fall short of their rhetoric. The gap between their stated position and how they often act, that is hypocritical.

I expect different standards of behavior from a sovereign western government than I do from a pirate gang. Don't you?

Lemming wrote: »

So what that they are pirates. They're human beings right? That's your rallying cry isn't it? Well guess what, this group of human beings have decided that they're going to rob, intimidate, kidnap, kill, etc. for money, with perhaps a smattering of convenient extreme political or religious ideology married into the mix to "justify" it.

You see this is where it's starting to get tedious. You guys keep trying to paint me as some kind of pirate apologist. I don't know how I can make this any clearer. I am not a representative of Somali pirates, I am not issuing any kind of "rallying cry" on their behalf or on anybody's behalf. I am attempting to understand the politics of the war on Somali pirates, that all. PIRATES ARE VERY VERY BAD PEOPLE I KNOW THIS. What part of this do you not understand?

Lemming wrote: »

So what lets them off the hook? What makes them so different that when they point a gun at the naval team trying to bring them to task (much like any police force around the world with a criminal) they should be treated with kind words and kid gloves.

Again getting tedious, who said let them off the hook, not I. I am asking are their bigger menaces than pirates, is this the most effective way to deal with them and why are they doing this. You guys keep building straw men and knocking them over.

Lemming wrote: »

If this were on land, you wouldn't give a sh*t because it'd be the local police handling the matter,

So now you know what I think, very impressive, given that you have never met me.

Lemming wrote: »

but because it's "the west" you're out banging your drum. Hypocrite.

This is the third time someone has suggested I am blaming the west, I have repeatedly used the phrase "developed world". Non western trawlers fished in Somali waters and non western forces have taken on Somali pirates. Straw men again, rebutting arguments I have not made while ignoring arguments I have.

Also I do not own a drum.

Lemming wrote: »

As for your two "questions"; one is contemptable, the other absurd in its obviousness. I'll let you figure out which is which

O your going all high brow and intellectual on me again

Lemming wrote: »

Simple answer #1: bankers & their ilk can be tackled with law and legislation by their respective countries.

Strangely enough wrecking economies does not appear to be against the law and the Banksters have the legislators in their pockets. Corporate money has destroyed our economies, our liberty and our democracy and I find this far more worrying than some two bit pirates.

And that is the core of my argument, not that small time pirates should be let off the hook, but that the big time pirates should be tackled first. The problem is that no matter how I state this argument, you guys keep hearing something completely different. And oddly enough none of you have at any point sought to clarify what I'm saying. You just keep building straw men, trying to paint me as some kind of pirate apologist.

The logic of what you guys as saying (and strangely enough ye are all touting the same kinds of arguments) is that if I refuse to see the pirates as some kind of cardboard cutout Hollywood villains, I am an apologist. And that guys is not an intellectual argument its just crude propaganda.

Lemming wrote: »

Simple answer #2: "Small time" pirates that get multi million dollar ransoms on oil tankers and the like ..... they are a growing menace on the seas and have been for several years, with several very high profile hijackings and/or murders.

I give you a single quote from history;

"Peace in our time".

First you are saying pirates are common criminals like burglars, now you appear to be comparing them to Nazi Germany. I don't understand.

clonmahon · 17-10-2011 3:57pm

tricky D wrote: »

Small time??? Given that piracy in this area is estimated to be costing around a billion dollars or more every year blows your argument out of the water (pun intended).

Are you seriously suggesting after the bankster induced global financial meltdown of 2008, which has wiped out trillions of dollars of assets and seems likely to wipe out many trillions more, that one billion dollars is big money. Big joke.

You see this is the point I keep making, you are all getting excited about the one billion dollars of damage the pirates are doing to global trade. But ye have expressed no anger about the trillions the Banksters have robbed from us all. You guys included, they are also robbing you.

tac foley · 17-10-2011 4:01pm

iceage wrote: »

Que Fas et Gloria Ducunt.

Impressed the filter let that one through !

Dear Mr iceage - Please use your Latin spell check before engaging critique - the word you seek is 'Quo' [where], not 'Que [what]'.

Thank you.

tac

tricky D · 17-10-2011 4:02pm

clonmahon wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting after the bankster induced global financial meltdown of 2008, which has wiped out trillions of dollars of assets and seems likely to wipe out many trillions more, that one billion dollars is big money. Big joke.

You see this is the point I keep making, you are all getting excited about the one billion dollars of damage the pirates are doing to global trade. But ye have expressed no anger about the trillions the Banksters have robbed from us all. You guys included, they are also robbing you.

Strawman/logical fallacy fail.

clonmahon · 17-10-2011 4:26pm

tricky D wrote: »

Strawman/logical fallacy fail.

This an answer to my point ? I point out that the banksters are robbing us all, you included and this is you reply. You write about a billion as big money, I point out the banksters have destroyed trillions and this your reply.

tricky D · 17-10-2011 4:30pm

Your point is not relevant to the issue in hand and is thus dismissed.

the_syco · 17-10-2011 5:02pm

Somali pirates cost £10 billion a year. They often would kidnap entire crews and ransom them and their cargo, as well as anyone who they can kidnap.

clonmahon · 17-10-2011 5:28pm

the_syco wrote: »

Somali pirates cost £10 billion a year. They often would kidnap entire crews and ransom them and their cargo, as well as anyone who they can kidnap.

Thanks the syco this is an interesting, balanced and very informative article. Yes piracy is indeed a menace it points out but as I have been trying to do here, this article examines the political, economic and social aspects of the problem. If anyone is interested that part is towards the end of the article.

Let me also say that from reading this article I can now see that the west is trying to live up to its human rights standards in dealing with these people. Western forces are not operating a shoot to kill policy like the Russians. I have strong opinions guys but I also have an open mind.

savagecabbages · 17-10-2011 5:44pm

clonmahon wrote: »

This is the first mention on this thread of what caused the Somali state to fail and how to fix the mess.

You slate me for mentioning the social and political apect.

clonmahon wrote: »

It is legitimate to question the social, political and economic context within which this war is being conducted

Then say its legitimate to mention the social and politicial aspect...

What do you actually want?
You are confusing me with the constant efforts to switch over to your anti-bankers agenda, which people here have no interest in listening to. If I want to have a chat about political, social and economic problems I'll head over to the politics forum. You accepted that this isn't the right place for such a debate, but one posters snide childish remark drew you back in. You were worse to rise to it.

goldie fish · 17-10-2011 5:48pm

clonmahon wrote: »

Thanks the syco this is an interesting, balanced and very informative article. Yes piracy is indeed a menace it points out but as I have been trying to do here, this article examines the political, economic and social aspects of the problem. If anyone is interested that part is towards the end of the article.

Let me also say that from reading this article I can now see that the west is trying to live up to its human rights standards in dealing with these people. Western forces are not operating a shoot to kill policy like the Russians. I have strong opinions guys but I also have an open mind.

Oh no you dont.

alanmcqueen · 17-10-2011 7:34pm

discus wrote: »

Hi there. Discus is the name, Royal Artillery is my game.

And I love Spike Milligan; that's some coincidence:)

iceage · 17-10-2011 10:06pm

tac foley wrote: »

Dear Mr iceage - Please use your Latin spell check before engaging critique - the word you seek is 'Quo' [where], not 'Que [what]'.

Thank you.

tac

Cheers for that Tac, your dead right. I was always told it was not where but whither(everywhere), hence also the omitted Ublique.

clonmahon · 18-10-2011 10:23am

savagecabbages wrote: »

If I want to have a chat about political, social and economic problems I'll head over to the politics forum. You accepted that this isn't the right place for such a debate, but one posters snide childish remark drew you back in. You were worse to rise to it.

Your right

discus · 18-10-2011 4:20pm

Savagecabbages - you thanked that childish comment! Don't think it was snide though. The military forum is constantly having people come in to criticise everything military, and relate everything back to the New World Order, or the bankers. I for one was sick of it.

savagecabbages · 20-10-2011 11:15pm

discus wrote: »

Savagecabbages - you thanked that childish comment! Don't think it was snide though. The military forum is constantly having people come in to criticise everything military, and relate everything back to the New World Order, or the bankers. I for one was sick of it.

Oh it wasn't. The thanks was over you slagging the other 2 for having their pissing contest.

The snide comment was:

alanmcqueen wrote: »

Very well thought out position and well defended Clonmahon. Well done.

Some people just have to have the last word on something:rolleyes:
I mean someone respectfully agrees that they wont get what they are looking for (after some persuasion) and agree to go somewhere else, then gets drawn back in by something silly like that...

alanmcqueen · 21-10-2011 9:21pm

savagecabbages wrote: »

Oh it wasn't. The thanks was over you slagging the other 2 for having their pissing contest.

The snide comment was:

Some people just have to have the last word on something:rolleyes:
I mean someone respectfully agrees that they wont get what they are looking for (after some persuasion) and agree to go somewhere else, then gets drawn back in by something silly like that...

Snide comment?! Last word?! surely some mistake!

I think Discus was less than impressed with my genuine complement as posted! (Clonmahon identified the snide comment). I thought Clonmahon's views were interesting and well articulated and he demonstrated a willingness to listen to some good points. Against the current too, pardon the pun.

I have no strong opinion on all this except to say that seeing the pirates being defeated in detail at sea by superior forces may be a lot of things but it's certainly not impressive. Although given how rare pro-active military action by western democracies can be, it could be considered - in military terms - as useful.

I can appreciate Discus getting bothered by people entering military forum with non-military views but given Clonmahon's posting history I don't think this is the case on this occasion.

So that's that then. No handbags at dawn required:)

GET SOME!!

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