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is pluging a puncture without removing tyre acceptable

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  • 30-08-2011 6:03pm
    #1
    ronanphilip
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭


    spoted a small screw in one of my tyres. brought it to be repaired and the tyre guy just pluged the puncture without taking off the wheel. i thought you were'nt suppose to do it like that anymore and the tyre should be removed and patched properly?

    is it ok the way it is, or should i go and get it done again with tyre removed?


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    #2
    tossy
    Registered Users Posts: 9,590 ✭✭✭tossy


    ronanphilip wrote: »
    spoted a small screw in one of my tyres. brought it to be repaired and the tyre guy just pluged the puncture without taking off the wheel. i thought you were'nt suppose to do it like that anymore and the tyre should be removed and patched properly?

    is it ok the way it is, or should i go and get it done again with tyre removed?

    Perfectly acceptable as long as it wasn't in the side wall.


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    #3
    Al Capwned
    Registered Users Posts: 5,721 ✭✭✭Al Capwned


    I'd have no problem with that at all!


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    #4
    Skullsri
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭Skullsri


    Bit of a lazy way around it but no problem doing it that way..a nail or screw in the side wall should never be pluged or patched..


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    #5
    ronanphilip
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭ronanphilip


    a lot of sites from a google state somthing like below?

    from www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/tiresafety/ridesonit/brochure.html
    The proper repair of a punctured tire requires a plug for the hole and a patch for the area inside the tire that surrounds the puncture hole. Punctures through the tread can be repaired if they are not too large, but punctures to the sidewall should not be repaired. Tires must be removed from the rim to be properly inspected before being plugged and patched.


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    #6
    tossy
    Registered Users Posts: 9,590 ✭✭✭tossy


    ronanphilip wrote: »
    a lot of sites from a google state somthing like below?

    from www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/tiresafety/ridesonit/brochure.html

    Meh.. I've plugged my own tyres at least 2 times in the past and had no issues what so ever,also never took the wheel off the car to plug it thats just creating work :D front is easy but rear was a b..... to do :D


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    #7
    Skullsri
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭Skullsri


    Ya dats bang on..but the repair you got done is still ok tho but if you are not happy go back and get them to repair it to your satisfaction..


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    #8
    elaverty
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭elaverty


    ronanphilip wrote: »
    a lot of sites from a google state somthing like below?

    from www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/tiresafety/ridesonit/brochure.html

    If done this way would you be willing to pay 25euro to get a puncture repaired,,,tyre shops will repair ir anyway you want if your willing to pay the extra for doing so,,Take your pick...


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    #9
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    Am retired from this industry so am not up to speed anymore. There were a few different types of plugs, some have been banned and the only one remaining was the self volcanising cord with paste that was applied with a needle.

    All the other squeeeze gun applications have been withdrawn.

    You cannot actually plug n patch TBH, when my cord plugs failed I'd patch but otherwise the cord was preferred.

    As long as the cord did not blow out [as was prone to the plugs] then the motorist should only experience another slow puncture with a failed cord.

    A failed patch would usually be a catastrophic failure followed by an instant deflation ~ it was very skilled work and I used to all the tyre patches myself, one needs to get the tyre inner suitably buffed, first with the use of extremely expensive buffeazy and then by a mechanical rasp ~ hand rasps were not successful except for large tyres.

    The solution needs to be applied carefully and in the right quantities and it must be kept clean prior to applying the patch ~ it needs to be baby sitted, I used to apply a test solution alongside the main area so I could touch it to test it's activation, then the patch had to go on with alacrity as the compound would start to go off.

    Apart form truck and tractor tyres, I always preferred the cord and compound and it bonded the hole made by the insertion. For weather sealing the cord needs to be wrapped around inside and come out leaving a loop inside the tyre.

    If this is cut to apply a patch it effectiveness is compromised. Now one would get away with this with the bigger tyres, but car tyres typically are much thinner and experience greater day to day stresses per mm of rubber.


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    #10
    Nissan doctor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,223 ✭✭✭Nissan doctor


    Industry standards dictate that the tyre should always be removed to inspect for damage caused by the puncture/soft tyre.

    Plugging a tyre without inspection is poor practice although, unfortunatly, not illegal in this country.

    For a car tyre it should always be removed, inspected, patched on the inside, refitted and rebalanced.


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    #11
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    I keep one of those needle and cord repair things in the boot for emergencies.Very very handy thing to have and so easy to use.So far Ive had to plug 2 on the tyre thread and theyre still there working away 6-8 months later.

    But as Nissan Doctor says the industry standard is removal,inspection,patched from the inside and rebalanced.

    For my own personal vehicle Ive no bother with the needle and cord.


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    #12
    12 element
    Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭12 element


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    I keep one of those needle and cord repair things in the boot for emergencies.Very very handy thing to have and so easy to use.So far Ive had to plug 2 on the tyre thread and theyre still there working away 6-8 months later.

    Do you mind me asking where you got it? Sounds like it could be handy!


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    #13
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,607 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Last place i got my tyre plugged was the little garage off Clanbrasil Street, one of those Advance Pitstop type places.

    Anyway, the guy took the tyre off, put a patch on the inside and sanded it down, took about 15 mins all in and was less than a tenner!

    Ive also gotten Run Flats plugged on many occasions and would have no problem getting it done again, aslong as it wasnt in the side wall of course.


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    #14
    ronanphilip
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭ronanphilip


    thanks everyone for all the replys. heres some more info i found from theaa.com

    www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/tyre-repairs-and-sealants.html
    One of the most important requirements is that the car tyre has to be removed from the wheel to check for internal damage. If not spotted this could later result in sudden failure of the tyre. Because of this, externally applied plugs and liquid sealants injected through the tyre valve can not be thought of as permanent repairs.

    think i will go to another tyre place tomorrow and get them to look at it for piece of mind. especially as the girlfriend has to take the car on a long spin soon by herself.


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    #15
    elaverty
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭elaverty


    Nissan doctor wrote: »
    Industry standards dictate that the tyre should always be removed to inspect for damage caused by the puncture/soft tyre.

    Plugging a tyre without inspection is poor practice although, unfortunatly, not illegal in this country.

    For a car tyre it should always be removed, inspected, patched on the inside, refitted and rebalanced.


    A properly trained and experienced tyre fitter will be able to determine from the outside of a tyre without removeing the tyre from the wheel if there has been damage done to the tyre,either visually,by touch or even smell.and therefore decide to remove the tyre from the wheel to investigate further if he sees fit to do so....note i did say PROPERLY TRAINED AND EXPERIENCED TYRE FITTER....


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    #16
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Nissan doctor wrote: »
    Industry standards dictate that the tyre should always be removed to inspect for damage caused by the puncture/soft tyre.

    Plugging a tyre without inspection is poor practice although, unfortunatly, not illegal in this country.

    For a car tyre it should always be removed, inspected, patched on the inside, refitted and rebalanced.

    Oh dear, that is expecting a lot from the average tare place. Let's face it, 90% of them are clueless cowboys and the rest are barely acceptable.
    Had the plugs done, no issue, it's only when the remove the tire when the trouble starts.
    None of them has ever rebalanced my wheel, I had to ask once and the guy just hammered new weights over the old ones.
    That has been with at least 10 different places in Limerick and Ennis, from big chains to small independents.
    So I'd rather have the guy plug it and not go near my wheel.
    The only way to get decent service is to write it out what you want and then stand over them and watch them.
    BTW: Does anyone know a GOOD tire place in Limerick or Ennis?
    Most Ennis people will recommend guys who operate out of a shed with 19th century equipment, because "he's a great guy, me da' used to get his Anglia serviced there, never a foot wrong!", so sheds are out.
    (I suspect the reason tire places in Ennis are bad is because most people there wouldn't notice it their wheels where fitted inside out, so there isn't much of a standard to uphold)


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    #17
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    12 element wrote: »
    Do you mind me asking where you got it? Sounds like it could be handy!

    Wurth Ireland but Southside motor factors also sell the kit for around 30 euros or so.


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    #18
    couldntthink
    Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭couldntthink


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Oh dear, that is expecting a lot from the average tare place. Let's face it, 90% of them are clueless cowboys and the rest are barely acceptable.
    Had the plugs done, no issue, it's only when the remove the tire when the trouble starts.
    None of them has ever rebalanced my wheel, I had to ask once and the guy just hammered new weights over the old ones.
    That has been with at least 10 different places in Limerick and Ennis, from big chains to small independents.
    So I'd rather have the guy plug it and not go near my wheel.
    The only way to get decent service is to write it out what you want and then stand over them and watch them.
    BTW: Does anyone know a GOOD tire place in Limerick or Ennis?
    Most Ennis people will recommend guys who operate out of a shed with 19th century equipment, because "he's a great guy, me da' used to get his Anglia serviced there, never a foot wrong!", so sheds are out.
    (I suspect the reason tire places in Ennis are bad is because most people there wouldn't notice it their wheels where fitted inside out, so there isn't much of a standard to uphold)

    Sounds like you already have a problem before you even get to the tyre place! ;)

    Nothing wrong with the shed guys. No matter the premises or the equipment, it comes down to the guy operating the gear. It's about understanding what you're doing, which admittedly a lot of tyre fitters don't.

    Anyway, plugs are fine as long as not on the sidewall as stated previously. The only time I have seen problems is when the hole is too big for the plug but that is quite rare. I once saw a plug get pulled out again. The tyre was plugged and the car parked outside. When the customer drove off the plug stuck to the hot tarmac and was pulled out again. 10 mins later the tyre was flat again.

    In Canada it is illegal to use plugs, the tyre must be removed and a patch fitted internally. Also, if the hole is big enough, you must use a patch with a plug incorporated. Pain in the ass.


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    #19
    sundodger5
    Registered Users Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    elaverty wrote: »
    A properly trained and experienced tyre fitter will be able to determine from the outside of a tyre without removeing the tyre from the wheel if there has been damage done to the tyre,either visually,by touch or even smell.and therefore decide to remove the tyre from the wheel to investigate further if he sees fit to do so....note i did say PROPERLY TRAINED AND EXPERIENCED TYRE FITTER....

    Well as an ex manager of a tyre depot, with over 20 years experience i have to say that that is not the case.
    I have seen tyres show no signs of external damage and be destroyed internally.
    A proper iso repair should be a combined plug/patch.
    Its like a mushrooom with the patch part being the head of the mushroom.
    It is pulled through the tread of the tyre so the stem plugs the hole and the patch seals the puncture.
    The proper sealing of the penetration hole is needed to prevent water getting into the steel belt under the tread causing issues further down the line.
    To all the guys who did plug tyres without taking the tyre off the rim, yes you got away with it and may continue to do so but it is not the proper way to do it.
    I think the problem is they make tyres too robust so that they will but up with that type of abuse. But consider this if the tyre is damaged you have less of a safety margin when you need it.


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    #20
    Darren MB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭Darren MB


    Living in an area with allot of construction I have picked up the plug kit from the local shop and plugs my own tires at least 15 times over the past 20 years.
    In one case I had 4 screws in a small area.
    I have never had a failure of an existing plug, and I have driven the hell out of the vehicles too.

    That being said I think for normal driving, in the tread area only, a tire plug is prefectly acceptable. For safety reasons I would not use them for performance driving.
    This also implies the tire is in good condition in all other respects (if it's beat up, or low tread, or cracked, replace the tire anyways)


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    #21
    Darren MB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭Darren MB


    couldntthink wrote: »
    In Canada it is illegal to use plugs, the tyre must be removed and a patch fitted internally. Also, if the hole is big enough, you must use a patch with a plug incorporated. Pain in the ass.

    This is new to me. maybe depends on where in Canada.
    Locally Plugs are still readily available around Toronto, normally they take those kinds of things off the shelf when not allowed.


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    #22
    sundodger5
    Registered Users Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    Darren MB wrote: »
    This also implies the tire is in good condition in all other respects (if it's beat up, or low tread, or cracked, replace the tire anyways)

    Thats the point until you pull the tyre off the wheel and have a good look and feel around you dont know if ant secondary damage is done to the tyre carcase.
    The bit you plug is not the bit that will fail if you have other damage.
    It will be the sidewall of the tyre from runflat related problems (usually)


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    #23
    Nissan doctor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,223 ✭✭✭Nissan doctor


    elaverty wrote: »
    A properly trained and experienced tyre fitter will be able to determine from the outside of a tyre without removeing the tyre from the wheel if there has been damage done to the tyre,either visually,by touch or even smell.and therefore decide to remove the tyre from the wheel to investigate further if he sees fit to do so....note i did say PROPERLY TRAINED AND EXPERIENCED TYRE FITTER....


    Rubbish. Damage is often visable from the outside but the inside of the side wall can very easily be damaged without external signs both from being driven when flat and also from the nail/screw or whatever cutting into the inside of the sidewall.

    A 'properly trained and experienced tyre fitter' will always remove the tyre and inspect/repair properly.
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Oh dear, that is expecting a lot from the average tare place. Let's face it, 90% of them are clueless cowboys and the rest are barely acceptable.
    Had the plugs done, no issue, it's only when the remove the tire when the trouble starts.
    None of them has ever rebalanced my wheel, I had to ask once and the guy just hammered new weights over the old ones.
    That has been with at least 10 different places in Limerick and Ennis, from big chains to small independents.
    So I'd rather have the guy plug it and not go near my wheel.
    The only way to get decent service is to write it out what you want and then stand over them and watch them.
    BTW: Does anyone know a GOOD tire place in Limerick or Ennis?
    Most Ennis people will recommend guys who operate out of a shed with 19th century equipment, because "he's a great guy, me da' used to get his Anglia serviced there, never a foot wrong!", so sheds are out.
    (I suspect the reason tire places in Ennis are bad is because most people there wouldn't notice it their wheels where fitted inside out, so there isn't much of a standard to uphold)

    It may be the case that many places wouldn't have a clue how to do it properly, I would even agree that many don't. But that doesn't change the way it should be done or the way the single solitary thing that keeps your car on the road should be repaired.

    If any of the large chains are still plugging tyres, then a letter or call to their head office will sort that as their liability insurance will not cover incorrect repair practices. In our place the lads would get a written warning of they were caught plugging a road going tyre.

    Its true that you will mostly get away with plugging a tyre without removal etc, in the same way that you will mostly get away with having bald tyres or badly worn brakes etc


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    #24
    Darren MB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭Darren MB


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    Thats the point until you pull the tyre off the wheel and have a good look and feel around you dont know if ant secondary damage is done to the tyre carcase.
    The bit you plug is not the bit that will fail if you have other damage.
    It will be the sidewall of the tyre from runflat related problems (usually)
    You know if I ran over a bear trap or other large peice of road garbage, that makes allot more sense. The original post was about "I spoted a small screw in one of my tyres."
    Basically if you run over a small screw, and it's still in your tire tread, it doesn't take exploratory surgury to determine there is no sidewall damage. In these cases often the tire is not even losing air with the screw in it. I have never seen a tire pick up a 3 inch construction screw, ever. it's normally a 1-2 cm tiny screw that barely puncutres the tire.


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    #25
    McP2011
    Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭McP2011


    elaverty wrote: »
    If done this way would you be willing to pay 25euro to get a puncture repaired,,,tyre shops will repair ir anyway you want if your willing to pay the extra for doing so,,Take your pick...


    Are you serious?25 euro to repair a puncture?lol


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    #26
    DaveJac
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭DaveJac


    McP2011 wrote: »
    Are you serious?25 euro to repair a puncture?lol

    ya thats right dear €10 around here and id only charge €10 in the main dealers i work in, and alot of the time if there a regular customer wouldnt charge at all


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    #27
    McP2011
    Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭McP2011


    DaveJac wrote: »
    ya thats right dear €10 around here and id only charge €10 in the main dealers i work in, and alot of the time if there a regular customer wouldnt charge at all

    A tenner is alrite but 25 is a bit puch imo.


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    #28
    Nissan doctor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,223 ✭✭✭Nissan doctor


    Darren MB wrote: »
    You know if I ran over a bear trap or other large peice of road garbage, that makes allot more sense. The original post was about "I spoted a small screw in one of my tyres."
    Basically if you run over a small screw, and it's still in your tire tread, it doesn't take exploratory surgury to determine there is no sidewall damage. In these cases often the tire is not even losing air with the screw in it. I have never seen a tire pick up a 3 inch construction screw, ever. it's normally a 1-2 cm tiny screw that barely puncutres the tire.

    I've seen the lads pull 6inch nails, drill bits, screws of all sizes out of tyres as well as some very oddball stuff.

    If you are plugging your own tyre and know that it didn't loose pressure, and you only remove a tiny screw that barely punctured the rubber, and you know the correct method of plugging a tyre, then yes, it will be fine.

    However from the point of view of the guy who has to repair a random tyre that has just driven in off the road, even if he only pulls out a small screw, he has no idea if the tyre has been driven with low pressure or flat and then pumped up by the owner. The amount of customers who come in with a shredded tyre and try to tell you they didn't drive it flat should be enough to make you cover yourself by checking every tyre properly.
    McP2011 wrote: »
    Are you serious?25 euro to repair a puncture?lol

    10-15 euro should be the max charged for a proper repair with re-balance.





    Also, industry and tyre manufacturer recommendations are that there should not be more the 3 repairs in any tyre and that repaired should not be in close proximity to each other, so without removing tyre, previous repairs cannot be determined.


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    #29
    Darren MB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭Darren MB


    McP2011 wrote: »
    Are you serious?25 euro to repair a puncture?lol
    All I'm saying is that I don't beleive it is fundamentally unsafe for a plug to be used to repair a minor puncture (also you have to admit for something as trival as a small screw this thread has gotton pretty blown out of proportion) the 25 Euro is small yes that's not the point. :)


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    #30
    PaulKK
    Registered Users Posts: 2,279 ✭✭✭PaulKK


    Personally I would rather the tyre taken off, inspected and patched properly and re-balanced. I know the plugs work fine, but I would have a lot more faith in an inspected and patched tyre and re-balanced wheel at 120km/hr on the motorway.

    Anywhere I have ever gotten a puncture fitted in Kilkenny they have done this, and its never been more than €15.


    Woot, 1000th post :)


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    #31
    Rovi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    By way of a bit of entertainment, you guys might be interested in the use these things are sometimes put to in the off-road/4x4game:
    If you gash a tyre on sharp rock or the like, and there's no mud/water/etc contaminating the wound, you can keep stuffing the plugs into the hole until it'll hold enough pressure to get you to somewhere a bit more civilised to effect a proper repair/replacement.
    The most I've ever seen was 30 or so in the one hole, and it held 5-6psi for a few miles (at very low speed); enough to get out of trouble.
    Needless to say, this was NOT on the public road (or indeed, any sort of 'road'), and was purely an emergency/expedient way of keeping the whole show rolling.

    Oh, and it doesn't do much for the wheel balance either :D


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