is pluging a puncture without removing tyre acceptable

ronanphilip

spoted a small screw in one of my tyres. brought it to be repaired and the tyre guy just pluged the puncture without taking off the wheel. i thought you were'nt suppose to do it like that anymore and the tyre should be removed and patched properly?

is it ok the way it is, or should i go and get it done again with tyre removed?

tossy

ronanphilip wrote: »

spoted a small screw in one of my tyres. brought it to be repaired and the tyre guy just pluged the puncture without taking off the wheel. i thought you were'nt suppose to do it like that anymore and the tyre should be removed and patched properly?

is it ok the way it is, or should i go and get it done again with tyre removed?

Perfectly acceptable as long as it wasn't in the side wall.

Al Capwned

I'd have no problem with that at all!

Skullsri

Bit of a lazy way around it but no problem doing it that way..a nail or screw in the side wall should never be pluged or patched..

ronanphilip

a lot of sites from a google state somthing like below?

from www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/tiresafety/ridesonit/brochure.html

The proper repair of a punctured tire requires a plug for the hole and a patch for the area inside the tire that surrounds the puncture hole. Punctures through the tread can be repaired if they are not too large, but punctures to the sidewall should not be repaired. Tires must be removed from the rim to be properly inspected before being plugged and patched.

tossy

ronanphilip wrote: »

a lot of sites from a google state somthing like below?

from www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/tiresafety/ridesonit/brochure.html

Meh.. I've plugged my own tyres at least 2 times in the past and had no issues what so ever,also never took the wheel off the car to plug it thats just creating work front is easy but rear was a b..... to do

Skullsri

Ya dats bang on..but the repair you got done is still ok tho but if you are not happy go back and get them to repair it to your satisfaction..

elaverty

ronanphilip wrote: »

a lot of sites from a google state somthing like below?

from www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/tiresafety/ridesonit/brochure.html

If done this way would you be willing to pay 25euro to get a puncture repaired,,,tyre shops will repair ir anyway you want if your willing to pay the extra for doing so,,Take your pick...

gbee

Am retired from this industry so am not up to speed anymore. There were a few different types of plugs, some have been banned and the only one remaining was the self volcanising cord with paste that was applied with a needle.

All the other squeeeze gun applications have been withdrawn.

You cannot actually plug n patch TBH, when my cord plugs failed I'd patch but otherwise the cord was preferred.

As long as the cord did not blow out [as was prone to the plugs] then the motorist should only experience another slow puncture with a failed cord.

A failed patch would usually be a catastrophic failure followed by an instant deflation ~ it was very skilled work and I used to all the tyre patches myself, one needs to get the tyre inner suitably buffed, first with the use of extremely expensive buffeazy and then by a mechanical rasp ~ hand rasps were not successful except for large tyres.

The solution needs to be applied carefully and in the right quantities and it must be kept clean prior to applying the patch ~ it needs to be baby sitted, I used to apply a test solution alongside the main area so I could touch it to test it's activation, then the patch had to go on with alacrity as the compound would start to go off.

Apart form truck and tractor tyres, I always preferred the cord and compound and it bonded the hole made by the insertion. For weather sealing the cord needs to be wrapped around inside and come out leaving a loop inside the tyre.

If this is cut to apply a patch it effectiveness is compromised. Now one would get away with this with the bigger tyres, but car tyres typically are much thinner and experience greater day to day stresses per mm of rubber.

Nissan doctor

Industry standards dictate that the tyre should always be removed to inspect for damage caused by the puncture/soft tyre.

Plugging a tyre without inspection is poor practice although, unfortunatly, not illegal in this country.

For a car tyre it should always be removed, inspected, patched on the inside, refitted and rebalanced.

Hellrazer

I keep one of those needle and cord repair things in the boot for emergencies.Very very handy thing to have and so easy to use.So far Ive had to plug 2 on the tyre thread and theyre still there working away 6-8 months later.

But as Nissan Doctor says the industry standard is removal,inspection,patched from the inside and rebalanced.

For my own personal vehicle Ive no bother with the needle and cord.

12 element

Hellrazer wrote: »

I keep one of those needle and cord repair things in the boot for emergencies.Very very handy thing to have and so easy to use.So far Ive had to plug 2 on the tyre thread and theyre still there working away 6-8 months later.

Do you mind me asking where you got it? Sounds like it could be handy!

Gumbo

Last place i got my tyre plugged was the little garage off Clanbrasil Street, one of those Advance Pitstop type places.

Anyway, the guy took the tyre off, put a patch on the inside and sanded it down, took about 15 mins all in and was less than a tenner!

Ive also gotten Run Flats plugged on many occasions and would have no problem getting it done again, aslong as it wasnt in the side wall of course.

ronanphilip

thanks everyone for all the replys. heres some more info i found from theaa.com

www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/tyre-repairs-and-sealants.html

One of the most important requirements is that the car tyre has to be removed from the wheel to check for internal damage. If not spotted this could later result in sudden failure of the tyre. Because of this, externally applied plugs and liquid sealants injected through the tyre valve can not be thought of as permanent repairs.

think i will go to another tyre place tomorrow and get them to look at it for piece of mind. especially as the girlfriend has to take the car on a long spin soon by herself.

elaverty

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Industry standards dictate that the tyre should always be removed to inspect for damage caused by the puncture/soft tyre.

Plugging a tyre without inspection is poor practice although, unfortunatly, not illegal in this country.

For a car tyre it should always be removed, inspected, patched on the inside, refitted and rebalanced.

A properly trained and experienced tyre fitter will be able to determine from the outside of a tyre without removeing the tyre from the wheel if there has been damage done to the tyre,either visually,by touch or even smell.and therefore decide to remove the tyre from the wheel to investigate further if he sees fit to do so....note i did say PROPERLY TRAINED AND EXPERIENCED TYRE FITTER....

dr.fuzzenstein

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Industry standards dictate that the tyre should always be removed to inspect for damage caused by the puncture/soft tyre.

Plugging a tyre without inspection is poor practice although, unfortunatly, not illegal in this country.

For a car tyre it should always be removed, inspected, patched on the inside, refitted and rebalanced.

Oh dear, that is expecting a lot from the average tare place. Let's face it, 90% of them are clueless cowboys and the rest are barely acceptable.
Had the plugs done, no issue, it's only when the remove the tire when the trouble starts.
None of them has ever rebalanced my wheel, I had to ask once and the guy just hammered new weights over the old ones.
That has been with at least 10 different places in Limerick and Ennis, from big chains to small independents.
So I'd rather have the guy plug it and not go near my wheel.
The only way to get decent service is to write it out what you want and then stand over them and watch them.
BTW: Does anyone know a GOOD tire place in Limerick or Ennis?
Most Ennis people will recommend guys who operate out of a shed with 19th century equipment, because "he's a great guy, me da' used to get his Anglia serviced there, never a foot wrong!", so sheds are out.
(I suspect the reason tire places in Ennis are bad is because most people there wouldn't notice it their wheels where fitted inside out, so there isn't much of a standard to uphold)

Hellrazer

12 element wrote: »

Do you mind me asking where you got it? Sounds like it could be handy!

Wurth Ireland but Southside motor factors also sell the kit for around 30 euros or so.

couldntthink

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Oh dear, that is expecting a lot from the average tare place. Let's face it, 90% of them are clueless cowboys and the rest are barely acceptable.
Had the plugs done, no issue, it's only when the remove the tire when the trouble starts.
None of them has ever rebalanced my wheel, I had to ask once and the guy just hammered new weights over the old ones.
That has been with at least 10 different places in Limerick and Ennis, from big chains to small independents.
So I'd rather have the guy plug it and not go near my wheel.
The only way to get decent service is to write it out what you want and then stand over them and watch them.
BTW: Does anyone know a GOOD tire place in Limerick or Ennis?
Most Ennis people will recommend guys who operate out of a shed with 19th century equipment, because "he's a great guy, me da' used to get his Anglia serviced there, never a foot wrong!", so sheds are out.
(I suspect the reason tire places in Ennis are bad is because most people there wouldn't notice it their wheels where fitted inside out, so there isn't much of a standard to uphold)

Sounds like you already have a problem before you even get to the tyre place!

Nothing wrong with the shed guys. No matter the premises or the equipment, it comes down to the guy operating the gear. It's about understanding what you're doing, which admittedly a lot of tyre fitters don't.

Anyway, plugs are fine as long as not on the sidewall as stated previously. The only time I have seen problems is when the hole is too big for the plug but that is quite rare. I once saw a plug get pulled out again. The tyre was plugged and the car parked outside. When the customer drove off the plug stuck to the hot tarmac and was pulled out again. 10 mins later the tyre was flat again.

In Canada it is illegal to use plugs, the tyre must be removed and a patch fitted internally. Also, if the hole is big enough, you must use a patch with a plug incorporated. Pain in the ass.

sundodger5

elaverty wrote: »

A properly trained and experienced tyre fitter will be able to determine from the outside of a tyre without removeing the tyre from the wheel if there has been damage done to the tyre,either visually,by touch or even smell.and therefore decide to remove the tyre from the wheel to investigate further if he sees fit to do so....note i did say PROPERLY TRAINED AND EXPERIENCED TYRE FITTER....

Well as an ex manager of a tyre depot, with over 20 years experience i have to say that that is not the case.
I have seen tyres show no signs of external damage and be destroyed internally.
A proper iso repair should be a combined plug/patch.
Its like a mushrooom with the patch part being the head of the mushroom.
It is pulled through the tread of the tyre so the stem plugs the hole and the patch seals the puncture.
The proper sealing of the penetration hole is needed to prevent water getting into the steel belt under the tread causing issues further down the line.
To all the guys who did plug tyres without taking the tyre off the rim, yes you got away with it and may continue to do so but it is not the proper way to do it.
I think the problem is they make tyres too robust so that they will but up with that type of abuse. But consider this if the tyre is damaged you have less of a safety margin when you need it.

Darren MB

Living in an area with allot of construction I have picked up the plug kit from the local shop and plugs my own tires at least 15 times over the past 20 years.
In one case I had 4 screws in a small area.
I have never had a failure of an existing plug, and I have driven the hell out of the vehicles too.

That being said I think for normal driving, in the tread area only, a tire plug is prefectly acceptable. For safety reasons I would not use them for performance driving.
This also implies the tire is in good condition in all other respects (if it's beat up, or low tread, or cracked, replace the tire anyways)

Darren MB

couldntthink wrote: »

In Canada it is illegal to use plugs, the tyre must be removed and a patch fitted internally. Also, if the hole is big enough, you must use a patch with a plug incorporated. Pain in the ass.

This is new to me. maybe depends on where in Canada.
Locally Plugs are still readily available around Toronto, normally they take those kinds of things off the shelf when not allowed.

sundodger5

Darren MB wrote: »

This also implies the tire is in good condition in all other respects (if it's beat up, or low tread, or cracked, replace the tire anyways)

Thats the point until you pull the tyre off the wheel and have a good look and feel around you dont know if ant secondary damage is done to the tyre carcase.
The bit you plug is not the bit that will fail if you have other damage.
It will be the sidewall of the tyre from runflat related problems (usually)

Nissan doctor

elaverty wrote: »

A properly trained and experienced tyre fitter will be able to determine from the outside of a tyre without removeing the tyre from the wheel if there has been damage done to the tyre,either visually,by touch or even smell.and therefore decide to remove the tyre from the wheel to investigate further if he sees fit to do so....note i did say PROPERLY TRAINED AND EXPERIENCED TYRE FITTER....

Rubbish. Damage is often visable from the outside but the inside of the side wall can very easily be damaged without external signs both from being driven when flat and also from the nail/screw or whatever cutting into the inside of the sidewall.

A 'properly trained and experienced tyre fitter' will always remove the tyre and inspect/repair properly.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Oh dear, that is expecting a lot from the average tare place. Let's face it, 90% of them are clueless cowboys and the rest are barely acceptable.
Had the plugs done, no issue, it's only when the remove the tire when the trouble starts.
None of them has ever rebalanced my wheel, I had to ask once and the guy just hammered new weights over the old ones.
That has been with at least 10 different places in Limerick and Ennis, from big chains to small independents.
So I'd rather have the guy plug it and not go near my wheel.
The only way to get decent service is to write it out what you want and then stand over them and watch them.
BTW: Does anyone know a GOOD tire place in Limerick or Ennis?
Most Ennis people will recommend guys who operate out of a shed with 19th century equipment, because "he's a great guy, me da' used to get his Anglia serviced there, never a foot wrong!", so sheds are out.
(I suspect the reason tire places in Ennis are bad is because most people there wouldn't notice it their wheels where fitted inside out, so there isn't much of a standard to uphold)

It may be the case that many places wouldn't have a clue how to do it properly, I would even agree that many don't. But that doesn't change the way it should be done or the way the single solitary thing that keeps your car on the road should be repaired.

If any of the large chains are still plugging tyres, then a letter or call to their head office will sort that as their liability insurance will not cover incorrect repair practices. In our place the lads would get a written warning of they were caught plugging a road going tyre.

Its true that you will mostly get away with plugging a tyre without removal etc, in the same way that you will mostly get away with having bald tyres or badly worn brakes etc

Darren MB

sundodger5 wrote: »

Thats the point until you pull the tyre off the wheel and have a good look and feel around you dont know if ant secondary damage is done to the tyre carcase.
The bit you plug is not the bit that will fail if you have other damage.
It will be the sidewall of the tyre from runflat related problems (usually)

You know if I ran over a bear trap or other large peice of road garbage, that makes allot more sense. The original post was about "I spoted a small screw in one of my tyres."
Basically if you run over a small screw, and it's still in your tire tread, it doesn't take exploratory surgury to determine there is no sidewall damage. In these cases often the tire is not even losing air with the screw in it. I have never seen a tire pick up a 3 inch construction screw, ever. it's normally a 1-2 cm tiny screw that barely puncutres the tire.

McP2011

elaverty wrote: »

If done this way would you be willing to pay 25euro to get a puncture repaired,,,tyre shops will repair ir anyway you want if your willing to pay the extra for doing so,,Take your pick...

Are you serious?25 euro to repair a puncture?lol

DaveJac

McP2011 wrote: »

Are you serious?25 euro to repair a puncture?lol

ya thats right dear €10 around here and id only charge €10 in the main dealers i work in, and alot of the time if there a regular customer wouldnt charge at all

McP2011

DaveJac wrote: »

ya thats right dear €10 around here and id only charge €10 in the main dealers i work in, and alot of the time if there a regular customer wouldnt charge at all

A tenner is alrite but 25 is a bit puch imo.

Nissan doctor

Darren MB wrote: »

You know if I ran over a bear trap or other large peice of road garbage, that makes allot more sense. The original post was about "I spoted a small screw in one of my tyres."
Basically if you run over a small screw, and it's still in your tire tread, it doesn't take exploratory surgury to determine there is no sidewall damage. In these cases often the tire is not even losing air with the screw in it. I have never seen a tire pick up a 3 inch construction screw, ever. it's normally a 1-2 cm tiny screw that barely puncutres the tire.

I've seen the lads pull 6inch nails, drill bits, screws of all sizes out of tyres as well as some very oddball stuff.

If you are plugging your own tyre and know that it didn't loose pressure, and you only remove a tiny screw that barely punctured the rubber, and you know the correct method of plugging a tyre, then yes, it will be fine.

However from the point of view of the guy who has to repair a random tyre that has just driven in off the road, even if he only pulls out a small screw, he has no idea if the tyre has been driven with low pressure or flat and then pumped up by the owner. The amount of customers who come in with a shredded tyre and try to tell you they didn't drive it flat should be enough to make you cover yourself by checking every tyre properly.

McP2011 wrote: »

Are you serious?25 euro to repair a puncture?lol

10-15 euro should be the max charged for a proper repair with re-balance.





Also, industry and tyre manufacturer recommendations are that there should not be more the 3 repairs in any tyre and that repaired should not be in close proximity to each other, so without removing tyre, previous repairs cannot be determined.

Darren MB

McP2011 wrote: »

Are you serious?25 euro to repair a puncture?lol

All I'm saying is that I don't beleive it is fundamentally unsafe for a plug to be used to repair a minor puncture (also you have to admit for something as trival as a small screw this thread has gotton pretty blown out of proportion) the 25 Euro is small yes that's not the point.

PaulKK

Personally I would rather the tyre taken off, inspected and patched properly and re-balanced. I know the plugs work fine, but I would have a lot more faith in an inspected and patched tyre and re-balanced wheel at 120km/hr on the motorway.

Anywhere I have ever gotten a puncture fitted in Kilkenny they have done this, and its never been more than €15.


Woot, 1000th post

Rovi

By way of a bit of entertainment, you guys might be interested in the use these things are sometimes put to in the off-road/4x4game:
If you gash a tyre on sharp rock or the like, and there's no mud/water/etc contaminating the wound, you can keep stuffing the plugs into the hole until it'll hold enough pressure to get you to somewhere a bit more civilised to effect a proper repair/replacement.
The most I've ever seen was 30 or so in the one hole, and it held 5-6psi for a few miles (at very low speed); enough to get out of trouble.
Needless to say, this was NOT on the public road (or indeed, any sort of 'road'), and was purely an emergency/expedient way of keeping the whole show rolling.

Oh, and it doesn't do much for the wheel balance either

gbee

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Rubbish. Damage is often visable from the outside but the inside of the side wall can very easily be damaged without external signs both from being driven when flat and also from the nail/screw or whatever cutting into the inside of the sidewall.

A bit strong, there will always be signs, it's just impossible for a tyre to sustain lethal damage and not show any trace of it on the outside.

The big nail rubbing the side wall is something one would want to inspect for, absolutely ~ in fact any of these I'd find I'd leave in the tyre until the customer returned because I know they'd not believe me.

But on price in advance last year, €20 for a repair and he was complaining about my side-wall scuffing ~ I told him I curb park and the tyres have a curbing ring.

Balancing is another €10 so the €25 quoted above is probably reasonable. A puncture is a serious breakdown but the customer rarely appreciates this, also it's the novices job to fix the puncture and no qualified 'mechanic' would lower himself for ~ outside the small shops and the specialist one that is of course.

So the industry did not take puncture repairs too seriously either in the past, I was not of that persuasion myself.

BTW, as an OT on price, I was a one truck delivery manager and a garage once charged us £150 for a truck puncture repair ~ when I started back in tyres I was doing a truck loose fro a tenner and car for 75P

McP2011

Darren MB wrote: »

All I'm saying is that I don't beleive it is fundamentally unsafe for a plug to be used to repair a minor puncture (also you have to admit for something as trival as a small screw this thread has gotton pretty blown out of proportion) the 25 Euro is small yes that's not the point.

Eh?lol...the 25 euro is not small its f*ckin dear.

Nissan doctor

gbee wrote: »

A bit strong, there will always be signs, it's just impossible for a tyre to sustain lethal damage and not show any trace of it on the outside.

If your happy with that then best of luck.


Try saying that to a bridgestone or goodyear/dunlop representative when they come to assess your garage/tyre center or whatever it is you operate from.

gbee

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Try saying that to a bridgestone or goodyear/dunlop representative when they come to assess your garage/tyre center or whatever it is you operate from.

I don't quite get this. Anyhow, I'm no longer fitting tyres ~ I'm out as long as I was in. I was around in the remould days and these were a master of disguise. I worked in the factory, delivery, claims, branch manager and finished out going 24hr commercial call out ~ had to do the course for Goodyear and what hazmat was for working with Esso.

Darren MB

gbee wrote: »

I don't quite get this. Anyhow, I'm no longer fitting tyres ~ I'm out as long as I was in. I was around in the remould days and these were a master of disguise. I worked in the factory, delivery, claims, branch manager and finished out going 24hr commercial call out ~ had to do the course for Goodyear and what hazmat was for working with Esso.

I get your last post (at least the first few lines with the lethal statement) I think a better description about may have been something like ...

"If there was any question about internal damage to the tire the option to repair it would have been off the table before the tire was taken off the rim"

I would expect most mechanics to be this competent. (I'm not a mechanic)

Nissan doctor

gbee wrote: »

Anyhow, I'm no longer fitting tyres ~ I'm out as long as I was in. I was around in the remould days and these were a master of disguise. .

Thankfully things have moved on alot since then.

gbee wrote: »

I don't quite get this.

Representitives from the major tyre suppliers carry out training and inspection checks on tyre outlets and garages who supply their products and if you fail this inspection(on say... proper tyre repair procedures) then they will require further staff training in order to be allowed to continue officially selling/servicing their products.

ronanphilip

so went to a different tyre place today and got the tyre done again. they took tyre off, repaired it and balanced it. only cost €10. not bad considering i was charged €5 yesterday just to plug it from the outside.

i also read on another forum, another broblem with plug from outside is that it may not seal every layer of the tire.

from http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/cars/msg021758363092.html?15

Tires have changed, and in the last five years we have been seeing ever increasing numbers of low profile, high performance tires. Many tire manufacturers do NOT permit the use of a plug to repair their tires. We have been instructed to use a "Patch/Plug assembly that is bonded to the inside of the tire. There are a number of reasons for using these. One is, the tire is taken apart, and examined for damage that often occurs when it gets run while low on air pressure. If you just slam a plug in a tire, you are assuming the tire is actually still OK, when in fact it might not be. A second reason is while the plug may seal the leak, it may not seal every layer of the tire. This can allow the air to force inbetween the layers of the tire, and litterally tear it apart from the inside. One of the most common failures that we see are seperated belts, this often happens because a plug didn't seal the entire depth of the failure.

So in short, do plugs work "most of the the time" YES, they do. Do plugs fail to work, and actually cause problems? Yes it happens. Do you want a repair that is correct and will be trouble free 100% of the time? Use a patch/plug mounted from inside the tire.

couldntthink

Darren MB wrote: »

This is new to me. maybe depends on where in Canada.
Locally Plugs are still readily available around Toronto, normally they take those kinds of things off the shelf when not allowed.

You may have a point there. It could be one of those provincial laws. I was working in British Columbia.

Paddy001

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I've seen the lads pull 6inch nails, drill bits, screws of all sizes out of tyres as well as some very oddball stuff.

I once took a spark plug out of one :rolleyes:

mickdw

couldntthink wrote: »

Sounds like you already have a problem before you even get to the tyre place!

Nothing wrong with the shed guys. No matter the premises or the equipment,

I dont agree. Trying to balance wheels with the old bubble type device is not suitable nowadays so the equipment is certainly important.

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Representitives from the major tyre suppliers carry out training and inspection checks on tyre outlets and garages who supply their products and if you fail this inspection(on say... proper tyre repair procedures) then they will require further staff training in order to be allowed to continue officially selling/servicing their products.

Im sure the training is offered in the first instance as I cant see a tyre company telling anyone that they are stopping them selling their tyres.

gbee

mickdw wrote: »

I dont agree. Trying to balance wheels with the old bubble type device is not suitable nowadays so the equipment is certainly important. .

Flashing lights gets them all the time ....

TBH, if your tyre is of good quality and it's actually fitted properly, with modern alloys, you [really] don't need balancing.

Nissan doctor

mickdw wrote: »

Im sure the training is offered in the first instance as I cant see a tyre company telling anyone that they are stopping them selling their tyres.

They can't/won't really stop you selling their products. But approved garages have access to manufacturer tech support, warranty claims procedures, official signage/advertising etc which non approved garages will not.
Also approved garages will have manufacturer certification for specialist procedures such as run flat tyre fitting etc.
This all means that the customer has official manufacturer support if an issue arises.

gbee wrote: »

Flashing lights gets them all the time ....

TBH, if your tyre is of good quality and it's actually fitted properly, with modern alloys, you [really] don't need balancing.

I won't bother saying rubbish again....

Anything round which is designed to spin quickly requires balancing, from clutches and flywheels to cranks/crank pulleys to wheels and tyres.

Just look at every brand new car on any forecourt, they all have balancing weights on their brand new wheels with premium tyres.

Hellrazer

gbee wrote: »

TBH, if your tyre is of good quality and it's actually fitted properly, with modern alloys, you [really] don't need balancing.

Have to disagree 100%

Ive seen brand new alloys come out of the box with premium brand tyres fitted needing 10-15grams and sometimes more each side to balance.