Enda Kenny has let rip on the Vatican.

Bristolian · 22-07-2011 8:03pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Do you have any of your own opinions that you'd like to share?

Yes I have shared my opinions already but I was called upon to produce evidence. As professional journalists both David Quinn and Kevin Myers have a little more time to gather that evidence and can put it together more succinctly - why reinvent the wheel?

oceanclub · 22-07-2011 8:05pm

Bristolian wrote: »

Yes I have shared my opinions already but I was called upon to produce evidence. As professional journalists both David Quinn and Kevin Myers have a little more time to gather that evidence and can put it together more succinctly - why reinvent the wheel?

Er, Quinn and Myers are columnists whose stock in trade is getting people annoyed. They're not Woodward and Bernstein.

P.

MagicMarker · 22-07-2011 8:14pm

Bristolian wrote: »

Yes I have shared my opinions already but I was called upon to produce evidence. As professional journalists both David Quinn and Kevin Myers have a little more time to gather that evidence and can put it together more succinctly - why reinvent the wheel?

What evidence have you produced? All I see are two articles? What are you trying to prove? All you seem to be saying is priests aren't the only people who abuse children which, believe it or not, we already know.

Galvasean · 22-07-2011 8:31pm

Notice how David Quinn and Kevin Myers appear in the OPINION section of the Indo. Opinion is not evidence by any definition.
Quinn is well known as the head of the fiercely pro-Catholic IONA Institute (and also known for fact dodging and deliberate statistical misinterpretation I might ad), while Myers' job is to be the voice of unpopular opinions.
While interesting to read by times, linking to an article by either of them counts as evidence of anything.

eoin5 · 22-07-2011 9:45pm

I find it entertaining that Myers ends up indirectly comparing himself to Ian Paisley of the old days by using the same language Enda did for his speech in his article.

thegreengoblin · 23-07-2011 12:14am

Bristolian wrote: »

Yes I have shared my opinions already but I was called upon to produce evidence. As professional journalists both David Quinn and Kevin Myers have a little more time to gather that evidence and can put it together more succinctly - why reinvent the wheel?

David Quinn wouldn't know the meaning of the word evidence if it came up to him with a crozier and bashed him over the head. He spends most of his time trying to shove the Catholic church's outdated, irrelevant, sexist, homophobic teachings down people's throats. Having realised that people are not falling for this crap anymore, he gets the hump and draws on some obscure 'study' from years ago which proves nothing but which in David's world should be regarded as fact.

He is at it again today in the Indo, leaping to Ratzinger's defence like the good watchdog that he is. I was going to copy and paste his article but people can easily find it if they want, I couldn't be bothered. But I'd like to point out that he ends the piece by concluding that the Government will end up getting flak in the same way the Vatican is getting it today. 'What goes around comes around' are his exact words. He's a smart-arse of the highest order.

As for Kevin Myers, his role is simply to go against the grain, whatever the subject matter. I've agreed with some of his stuff in the past but he has backed the wrong horse with this one.

efb · 23-07-2011 1:29am

What goes around comes around Mr David Quinn???? I hope those catholic paedoes are raped in their beds by the biggest fierest mo-foe's that ever lived!!!!

robindch · 23-07-2011 2:10am

Bristolian wrote: »

Yes I have shared my opinions already

You've cut'n'pasted the paid-for opinions of two third-rate polemicists.

Would you like to engage in a discussion? A bit of back and forth? Reply to the responses that people have gone to the trouble of writing?

If not, I'm sure the forum can cut'n'paste plenty of internet prose back at you.

robindch · 23-07-2011 2:12am

efb wrote: »

I hope those catholic paedoes are raped in their beds [...]

Any more of that kind of inflammatory rubbish will earn you cards or a forum ban.

Nodin · 23-07-2011 2:39pm

Bristolian wrote: »

.........As professional journalists both David Quinn and Kevin Myers have a little more time to gather that evidence and can put it together more succinctly - why reinvent the wheel?

As I've had the unhappy experience of going through a few Myers articles, I can safely say that he manages to evade facts that go against his predetermined conclusions with a deftness that would put a cat to shame. Mr Quinn is of similar ilk, though dealing with matters theological, his lack of familiarity with what constitutes "evidence" and "fact" is somewhat understandable and thus he cannot really be looked at as harshly as Mr Myers.

In any event, if you aren't able or willing to even attempt to explain your position in your own words, it doesn't say much for your faith in it, or its strength.

Turtwig · 23-07-2011 2:56pm

Nodin wrote: »

In any event, if you aren't able or willing to even attempt to explain your position in your own words, it doesn't say much for your faith in it, or its strength.

You left out the crucial bit : His/Her understanding of it.

recedite · 23-07-2011 8:14pm

Morbert wrote: »

Hmm, I'm confused about the claim that someone is 40 to 80 times more likely to be abused by a priest.

Consider the table below.

These numbers are presumably fairly typical. Priests don't seem to stand out, as the proportion of all abusers seems to reflect the proportion of all authority figures.

Adding together the two categories of male priests/brothers (religious teachers and ministers) I get 28.3%....a pretty shocking % of paedos.

goose2005 · 23-07-2011 10:47pm

Bristolian wrote: »

The nuns of Ireland ran our hospitals with greater efficiency than the HSE, and at far less cost.

I'm sick of seeing the assertion being made without any evidence that nuns were better than "lay" nurses.

The Celtic Tiger was made possible by a conservative educational system that was largely the creation of the Catholic Church.

Our education system is a creation of generations of taxpaying citizens; it was parasitized by the churches for their own ends.

Tens of thousands of Irish people became priests, brothers and nuns, in the fond and fervent expectation that they would be serving God and the needs of others, not themselves or their own appetites.

Not wishing to invoke Godwin, but didn't people join the SS for the same reasons? Merely being fervent doesn't make you good or right. Also, quite a few men became priests because of the authority and respect it would bring, not to mention the familial approval.

Nodin · 25-07-2011 1:55pm

The Vatican has confirmed that Papal Nuncio Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza has been recalled to Rome for consultations on the Cloyne report.
A statement highlights the reactions that have followed the publication of the report - a veiled reference to the Taoiseach's unprecedented attack on the Holy See for allegedly undermining the Irish bishops' mandatory reporting policy regarding clerical child sexual abuse.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0725/cloyne.html

'Wait...come back....don't go.....'

'Only messin. Feck off.'

Nodin · 25-07-2011 2:02pm

From the Beeb, which doesn't paraphrase the way RTE has seen fit to.

Vice-director of the Vatican press office Father Ciro Benedettini said the nuncio's recall "should be interpreted as an expression of the desire of the Holy See for serious and effective collaboration with the (Irish) government".
He added that it "denotes the seriousness of the situation and the Holy See's desire to face it objectively and determinately.
"Nor does it exclude some degree of surprise and disappointment at certain excessive reactions."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14272988

I'd suggest that Father Ciro is somewhat out of touch with whats consided "excessive reactions". In this case that would include elements such as rope and fire.

who the fug · 25-07-2011 2:25pm

By this stage they they have run out of feet and are just shooting themselves in their balls.

One Really Despairs

Zillah · 25-07-2011 3:52pm

Wait...I'm confused.

Is this one of those "We're recalling our envoy as a form of protest" situations, or are they just flying him back to have a talk with him?

Because it really seems like the first one, but they're describing it like its the second one.

Let me guess, it's the first one, because they think they're still powerful and deserve respect, but they're treating it like the second one, because they have no problem with bald-faced lies when it comes to public perception of their actions?

Penn · 25-07-2011 3:58pm

Am I the only one who has never heard of the term Holy See before the past few weeks?

Zillah · 25-07-2011 3:59pm

Barrington wrote: »

Am I the only one who has never heard of the term Holy See before the past few weeks?

Probably...

On this forum anyway.

Revolution9 · 25-07-2011 4:11pm

Barrington wrote: »

Am I the only one who has never heard of the term Holy See before the past few weeks?

Holy C is the new name for communion bread, they want to make it appeal to children, play on the Special K angle.

Seriously though, what exactly is the "holy see"?

Dades · 25-07-2011 4:28pm

Revolution9 wrote: »

Seriously though, what exactly is the "holy see"?

They have a special signal, too.

Hold up your index and thumb as if you were making a "C" shape and poke your other index finger in and out of the center of it.

If you look closely during the Pope's inauguration you can see some of the bishops doing it down the back.

Mark Hamill · 25-07-2011 6:18pm

Barrington wrote: »

Am I the only one who has never heard of the term Holy See before the past few weeks?

I thought the papal nuncio was a piece of paper.

mikhail · 25-07-2011 6:41pm

Barrington wrote: »

Am I the only one who has never heard of the term Holy See before the past few weeks?

I prefer to render the term "magic chair".

recedite · 26-07-2011 12:21pm

Zillah wrote: »

Is this one of those "We're recalling our envoy as a form of protest" situations, or are they just flying him back to have a talk with him?

After Enda's speech, the Papal Munchkin made some remarks which he expected to be reported in the media, but Enda said he expected a formal response, nothing less.

If you remember back to a previous occasion, when the govt. wanted to speak to the Papal Munchkin in relation to one of the inquiries, he informed the govt. that as he was a foreign diplomat, they would have to make a formal application through the proper diplomatic channels (which would take too long), and thus he evaded being questioned.

So the Munchkin has gone off in a huff now. No point trying to read too much into that though; best to wait for the formal statement to be issued from the Vatican.

magicbastarder · 26-07-2011 1:56pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0725/1224301316143.html?via=mr

oceanclub · 26-07-2011 2:25pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0725/1224301316143.html?via=mr

Vincent Twomey - yet another Iona Institute patron, along with David Quinn and Breda O'Brien, who are the only people to come out and bat on behalf of the Vatican in the media this week:

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/personnel_patrons.php

P.

recedite · 26-07-2011 3:30pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0725/1224301316143.html?via=mr

Fr. Twomey seems to be saying the Irish Bishops couldn't implement their own new guidelines because civil law does not yet have "mandatory reporting".
This is false, anyone can implement their own guidelines as long as they are not actually illegal.
The lack of any "mandatory reporting" stipulation in the Republic was to protect the priests from having to report what they heard as a confessional.
But now they are going to lose that protection, because some of them didn't follow the guidelines, which was mainly because the Vatican told them the guidelines complied with neither canon law nor civil law.
The guidelines were a last ditch response to years of public outrage and falling mass attendance, and complied with common sense and decency.

kylith · 28-07-2011 12:36pm

Enda's like Hitler, says Togher priest.
http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/newsletter-rant-shocks-mass-goers-162456.html

Newsletter rant shocks Mass-goers

By Michelle O’Keeffe

Thursday, July 28, 2011

TAOISEACH Enda Kenny has been likened to Nazi leader Adolf Hitler in a Mass newsletter, following his attack on the Pope.

Shocked Mass-goers in Togher, Co Louth, were left reeling by an article in the parish bulletin in relation to Mr Kenny’s outburst in the Dáil following the damning Cloyne Report with the headline "Heil Herr Kenny".

It stated: "The last European leader to make such a blistering attack on the Pope was the ruthless German dictator Adolf Hitler."

Parish priest Fr Thomas Daly was not available yesterday to comment on the article.

But one local man said: "Everybody was really shocked when they read the piece in the parish bulletin. Everybody in the area is talking about it. It is a bit much comparing the leader of Ireland to Hitler — the article went too far."

The newsletter, which was in the Church of St Columcille in Togher on Sunday, went on to say: "Perhaps he (Enda Kenny) might also keep in mind that the profile of Knock was hugely raised by the visit of a former Pope (John Paul II) to the shrine in 1979.

"If history teaches us one lesson, it must surely be a call to be careful about the canonisation of political leaders.

"Even Hitler had to face that reality. A cautionary tale."

Mr Kenny unleashed a scathing attack on the Vatican last week for its attitude to protecting children from sexual abuse.

In the special Dáil debate on the Cloyne report, he said it exposed an attempt by the Holy See to frustrate an inquiry into child sex abuse just three years ago.

He said the rape and torture of children had been downplayed or "managed" to uphold the institution’s power and reputation.

The Togher parish bulletin stated: "The last European leader to make such a blistering attack on the Pope was the ruthless German dictator Adolf Hitler.

"His Dáil speech was greeted with shouts of jubilation by almost every journalist and TV pundit in the country.

"Is this the new Ireland? Is this the fulfilment of the dreams of the founding fathers?

"‘No Pope here’. Is this the way forward for a new and better Ireland?

"Perhaps we might try and find a way to build new bridges with the Shankhill Road people."

Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/newsletter-rant-shocks-mass-goers-162456.html#ixzz1TQIwXWPM

The Mad Hatter · 28-07-2011 12:59pm

Dades wrote: »

They have a special signal, too.

Hold up your index and thumb as if you were making a "C" shape and poke your other index finger in and out of the center of it.

The Holey C.

strobe · 28-07-2011 3:43pm

Zillah wrote: »

Wait...I'm confused.

Is this one of those "We're recalling our envoy as a form of protest" situations, or are they just flying him back to have a talk with him?

Because it really seems like the first one, but they're describing it like its the second one.

Let me guess, it's the first one, because they think they're still powerful and deserve respect, but they're treating it like the second one, because they have no problem with bald-faced lies when it comes to public perception of their actions?

With the calls for his expulsion from sitting members if the Irish parliament coupled with Mr Kenny's address, I think there could have been a fair dollop of "You can't fire me, I quit!!" from whatshisface and the Vatican. Pull him out to make sure he can't be pushed, sort of thing. Another example of the Vatican placing PR and media relations above all else yet again.

Enda Kenny has let rip on the Vatican.

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