Air France 447 wreckage found in Atlantic

lintdrummer · 03-05-2011 10:43am

Cockpit recorder has also been found and appears to be in usable condition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13264573

JonathanAnon · 03-05-2011 4:39pm

Just said on the TV3 News that they've found the CVR. Didnt say whether it was damaged (like the FDR) just that it has been found...

Just found this online:
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/AirFrance447CVRRecovered_204582-1.html

Air France 447 CVR Recovered

A search team has recovered the cockpit voice recorder from Air France Flight 447, which crashed into the Atlantic Ocean in June 2009, killing all 228 on board. A remotely operated vehicle retrieved the CVR from the ocean floor, 12,800 feet down, on Tuesday morning, and it appears to be intact and in good condition (more photos are posted online at the French accident investigation bureau). Investigators also recovered the flight data recorder last week, but it is not yet clear how much data, if any, will be recoverable from the two devices after nearly two years submerged at such great depths. The units are designed to withstand impact and immersion, but only for 30 days. French transport minister Thierry Mariani said investigators hope to report on their data-retrieval efforts within about three weeks.

Air France CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon called the CVR retrieval "another decisive step forward in the inquiry" and thanked investigators for "persevering in this arduous search." The Airbus A330 crashed about 600 miles off the coast of Brazil while en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris. Data from automated transmissions sent by the jet in its final moments suggest that the jet's airspeed sensors were transmitting faulty data as the aircraft flew at high altitude in bad weather. In March, a French court filed preliminary manslaughter charges against Air France and Airbus in connection with the crash.

A320 · 03-05-2011 6:14pm

I saw a pic somewhere else,it looks in great condition and its still attatched to its mounting plate

Manic Moran · 03-05-2011 7:37pm

Got to admit, it's quite the technological feat finding that thing.

NTM

cyrusdvirus · 03-05-2011 8:05pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Got to admit, it's quite the technological feat finding that thing.

NTM

Yep, Just hopefully they can get some useful data out of them now.

pclancy · 03-05-2011 8:21pm

Bloody Hell that is deep, well done to that crew! Robart Ballard would be proud.

pclancy · 03-05-2011 8:35pm

C:\Mod.bat :AF447 \Merge

Run_to_da_hills · 05-05-2011 11:15pm

Salvage teams recover decomposed body of Air France jet passenger still strapped into seat

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383910/Salvage-teams-recover-decomposed-body-Air-France-jet-passenger.html

pclancy · 05-05-2011 11:30pm

Pretty amazing the bodies are preserved so well still. I'm so happy for the families that will finally get some form of closure from bringing their relatives home and hopefully with the discovery of the black boxes, some final closure to the crash investigation itself.

Killinator · 06-05-2011 3:23pm

One can only imagine the state of the bodies if some of the experts asked to be released from the investigation, given the kind of things they'd be used to seeing,
Amazing feat, got to hand it to the search/salvage crews, they're doing a fantastic job,
Can only hope now that the monumental effort put in by all involved pays off and we eventually find out what happened, and more importantly, this whole tragic event gets closure.

robertxxx · 06-05-2011 9:40pm

And safety measures are put in place so this doesn't happen again>

A320 · 16-05-2011 11:52am

The data has been retrieved from the DFDR and CVR,just saw it on some news channel,they confirmed it as 'readable'. the best news yet no doubt

cyrusdvirus · 16-05-2011 11:55am

A320 wrote: »

The data has been retrieved from the DFDR and CVR,just saw it on some news channel,they confirmed it as 'readable'. the best news yet no doubt

Bloody hell.

That's good to hear... And i thought it would not be the case after 2 years, at that depth and salt water.

LeakRate · 16-05-2011 3:28pm

Great News indeed,a good link for keeping up to date on the progress of it all,

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1/0053&opt=0

cyrusdvirus · 18-05-2011 8:40am

This is interesting.

Initial AF447 evidence does not require operator action
By David Kaminski-Morrow

Airbus has issued an information telex to operators stating that no immediate action is required as a result of preliminary data from the Air France Airbus A330 accident.

While the telex, issued on 16 May, is not designed to establish a conclusion over the cause of the 1 June 2009 accident to flight AF447, it effectively points away from a catastrophic technical failure on board the aircraft.

Airbus declines to comment on the document. French investigation agency Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses - which would have approved the release of the telex - has cautioned against speculation over the crash, stating that any conclusions not validated by its investigators are "null and void".

But a source familiar with the inquiry states that the advisory telex to operators "does not see a need" for any specific action as a result of initial evidence from the inquiry.

Such a telex is normally a reassurance to operators that there is no evidence of an occurrence which would require an urgent maintenance check or revision of operating procedures.

It follows the download of information from the flight-data recorder and cockpit-voice recorder from AF447, retrieved at the beginning of May after an intensive two-year hunt for the A330's wreckage in the South Atlantic.

The telex would not rule out the possibility of pitot tube icing - long suspected to have been an element of the accident sequence - but precautionary directives on this, and the appropriate pilot response to unreliable airspeed information, have already been issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency.

Flight AF447 came down en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris in the vicinity of storm activity, with the loss of all 228 occupants.

Link

Essentially not ruling out the Pitot Tubes, but indicating the aircraft had not suffered any catastrophic failures, and should have been 'flyable' (if that's such a word)

A320 · 18-05-2011 3:29pm

just remember folks Airbus is probably going to try pin this on the pilots so don't listen to them,wait for an official report from the investigators

cyrusdvirus · 18-05-2011 3:51pm

A320 wrote: »

just remember folks Airbus is probably going to try pin this on the pilots so don't listen to them,wait for an official report from the investigators

Fair enough point.

I do remember seeing something on telly about the time of the crash about how to keep flying using the trim and throttle settings ( think it was 85% throttle and slightly nose high trim)

It could be the links Jonathon Anon posted.

in work so can't see the youtube stuff at the moment

Manic Moran · 18-05-2011 4:19pm

Could also mean that the initial guess was right, and any appropriate remedial measures have already been taken, there being no need to do anything more.

NTM

rebel girl 15 · 18-05-2011 4:21pm

A320 wrote: »

just remember folks Airbus is probably going to try pin this on the pilots so don't listen to them,wait for an official report from the investigators

Already

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pilots-to-blame-for-air-crash-that-killed-doctors-2649972.html

A320 · 18-05-2011 4:38pm

Ah and there we have it!! its inevitable,the pilots are dead and have no say,theres a few similar A330 incidents which may be important and airbus aircraft tend to behave like a spoilt brat

castie · 19-05-2011 6:21am

How can they get away with printing such utter rubbish.

roundymac · 19-05-2011 1:48pm

Why did'nt they fly around the weather front, that's the question I would ask. Was their weather radar malfunctioning?

cml387 · 19-05-2011 1:53pm

castie wrote: »

How can they get away with printing such utter rubbish.

Par for the course I'm afraid with the Indo.

All speculation is just that until the BEA finish and publish the report.

BrianD · 23-05-2011 11:41am

Der Spiegel reporting that the captain was not in the cockpit during a critical phase.

Full article: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,764227,00.html

cml387 · 23-05-2011 12:17pm

This is awful nonsense.
The pilots flying the plane were fully qualified (otherwise what's the point of having them as relief?).

Stinicker · 23-05-2011 12:21pm

castie wrote: »

How can they get away with printing such utter rubbish.

Its the Irish Independent, that just their modus operandi.

cyrusdvirus · 23-05-2011 12:24pm

cml387 wrote: »

This is awful nonsense.
The pilots flying the plane were fully qualified (otherwise what's the point of having them as relief?).

Unfortunately, the greater public goes for the sensationalist option every time over the logical option.

3 fully qualified pilots on an aircraft won't sell papers.

But the captain of an airliner that plunged into the ocean, after disappearing from radar screens, while carrying 228 people, being missing from the cockpit during a critical part of the disaster will sell papers.

You and i, and the vast majority of the readers of this particular forum will understand that the captain not being in the cockpit is not a hugely significant happening, but to the greater public, that would be like Edward J Smith not being on the bridge of the Titanic when she went barrelling headlong into an iceberg.

amen · 23-05-2011 7:57pm

that would be like Edward J Smith not being on the bridge of the Titanic when she went barrelling headlong into an iceberg.

which he wasn't!

Tenger · 24-05-2011 7:52am

BrianD wrote: »

Der Spiegel reporting that the captain was not in the cockpit during a critical phase.

This fact was suspected shortly after the loss of the aircraft. I think they recovered his body, not 100% on that though.

cml387 wrote: »

This is awful nonsense.
The pilots flying the plane were fully qualified (otherwise what's the point of having them as relief?).

I believe the 3rd pilot is there due to the length of the flight duty. It is too long for 2 pilots to be at the controls without a break. So the 3rd member of the crew allows each person to get a rest outside of the cockpit for a time. All 3 would be present for take-off and landing.

The documentary that points the finger to super-cooled water droplets hints at this, the pilot in the left seat in their recreation looked to be early 30's. They didn't mention this as it was speculation at the time.

BrianD · 24-05-2011 10:19am

I actually think it's irrelevant that the Captain was not in the cockpit at the time if there was a rotating crew. He would have been on a rest break at some point or at the very least would have to visit the WC. All would have been qualified to fly the aircraft.

JonathanAnon · 24-05-2011 6:02pm

Tenger wrote: »

I believe the 3rd pilot is there due to the length of the flight duty. It is too long for 2 pilots to be at the controls without a break.

Are we sure that there were three pilots on board... And what is the protocol, if there are only two pilots, neither can leave the cockpit without good reason ? I have seen on ACI where the pilot left the cockpit, but that was to investigate fires or holes in the plane..

This is an interview from Fox from last week, after the first "sweep" of the black box information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7xiDL2PY9c

"Good news is it's been two years, and there hasnt been another incident with this type of aircraft.. it's probably something specific to that aircraft or flight"

cml387 · 24-05-2011 9:12pm

"Pilots confused by alarms"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304066504576341631579541512.html?mod=WSJEUROPE_hpp_MIDDLESecondNews

ro_chez · 27-05-2011 10:27am

From avherald.com

"The BEA announced to release first information from the black box recordings on May 27th in the afternoon (local time, approx. 11:00Z to 16:00Z). The Aviation Herald is going to report as soon as this information becomes available."

http://avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1/0053&opt=0

transylman · 27-05-2011 11:55am

The early notes.
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/point.enquete.af447.27mai2011.en.pdf

cyrusdvirus · 27-05-2011 12:37pm

makes for fairly horrifying reading.

Does it read like the pilots lost situational awareness after losing the platform to anyone else?

cml387 · 27-05-2011 2:19pm

Good lord.

From the beginning of the incident to end of recording is a period of four and a half minutes.

LeakRate · 27-05-2011 4:32pm

At 02:12:02Z the thrust levers were placed into idle

Is a significant line in that report,However with the warning messages on ECAM and events these guys were encountering,lack of reliable airspeeds,dark night with no visual reference all within the space of four mins must have been a truly awful and confusing experience.

Can any Airbus jockies maybe fill me on as to why alpha floor mode didnt put the auto-thrust into TOGA power?or was this over ridden due to the fact they were in alternate mode and placed the levers in idle themselves.

Hope this report and the eventual final report brings some sort of closure to all families effected by this and may they rest in peace

ro_chez · 27-05-2011 5:02pm

Odd that the pilot flying would constantly pull the nose up in a stall if they qwere aware they were even in a stall!

Manic Moran · 27-05-2011 5:03pm

OK, I'm trying to understand what I'm reading here.

Angle of attack of 40 degrees in a stall? It seriously worries me as an inexperienced pilot because I know that 'you don't pull up in a stall', yet I seem to keep reading about experienced pilots who do... implying I probably will as well!

Yet the record indicates that at times the pilots did push controls forward.

Is a significant line in that report

Agreed. Is it possible that for some reason they thought they were in a nose-down dive with faulty speed indicators and wanted to ensure they didn't break VNE? If they're showing wings level and the altimeter dropping like a rock, it's not too hard to imagine, but that would mean they weren't paying attention to the attitude indicators.

The pilots apparently identified a pitot system failure "We have no speeds", yet the record seems to show speed readings consistant with the other indications. (Question: Is the stall warning horn on an airliner simply triggered by a low indicated speed, or is it an entirely separate system physically on the wing like on a Cessna?). Even without an airspeed indicator, though, straight-and-level flying doesn't seem too hard. I can't help but wonder if the attitude indicator was wrong, and the airspeed indicator was correct. That could explain my throttle idle theory.

At the very end, "We have no valid indications".
How is that possible? Can the entire suite of glass and steam gauges all fail at the same time? I can't fathom that it is. The implication to me is that either they didn't pay sufficient attention to the standby instruments, or that the instruments were, in fact, reading correctly and, as gatecrash suggests, they simply lost situational awareness and were unable to correlate the readings with where they thought they should be.

NTM

cml387 · 27-05-2011 5:50pm

AFAIK the stall indication comes from the wing airflow detection (stall is a related to AOA as well as airspeed).

This looks like a severe tubulence (rapid changes in upforce/downforce) combined with pilot overload.

loldog · 27-05-2011 6:51pm

This bit puzzles me

the inputs made by the PF were mainly nose-up

If the nose is already up, why keep pushing it up further? I assume the attitude indicator was working?

.

cyrusdvirus · 27-05-2011 7:38pm

loldog wrote: »

This bit puzzles me

If the nose is already up, why keep pushing it up further? I assume the attitude indicator was working?

.

I may have read it incorrectly but it appears to me that they regained the sensor platform after a minute and a half.

It's what I was referring to earlier about the situational awareness, and what manic referred to when he mentioned about the pilots thinking they were in a nose down attitude and that they didn't trust the sensor readings.

It's possible that they just didn't realize what was going on.

10K feet per minute rate of descent in nose high attitude suggests the plane got away from them.

robertxxx · 27-05-2011 10:21pm

Right, first off, i know nothing about flying bar sitting in the cattle section.:D

But when poo happens and the autopilot turns off because "it" cant make sense of the readings its getting due to icing/faulty sensors etc..and the pilot is starting panicking due to these false readings, why don't pilots with vast experience go back to basics and try not to fix a problem with a problem.
EG; they can see the "throttle" is at a certain position and they can hear the engines then they should roughly know the speed they are going, and as for the pitch is there not some sort of basic physical spirit level so when all else fails and it black outside they have some basic way to make judgments a bit better?

But what do i know:D

cml387 · 27-05-2011 11:05pm

robertxxx wrote: »

Right, first off, i know nothing about flying bar sitting in the cattle section.:D

But when poo happens and the autopilot turns off because "it" cant make sense of the readings its getting due to icing/faulty sensors etc..and the pilot is starting panicking due to these false readings, why don't pilots with vast experience go back to basics and try not to fix a problem with a problem.
EG; they can see the "throttle" is at a certain position and they can hear the engines then they should roughly know the speed they are going, and as for the pitch is there not some sort of basic physical spirit level so when all else fails and it black outside they have some basic way to make judgments a bit better?

But what do i know:D

I think your question goes right to the centre of what will be the outcome of the investigation.

If you automate aircraft to the point where pilots become observers of the computers that fly the plane,what happens if things go suddenly t!ts up with the system and you're left to fly the plane yourself.

loldog · 27-05-2011 11:05pm

According to this documentary, there's a procedure to follow when you can't find out your airspeed.

Set throttle to 85%, pitch nose up at an angle of 5 degrees.

Watch a few minutes of this, to see them doing it in the simulator.

http://youtu.be/SJMhX_IQP7A#t=38m34s

What complicated matters in this incident though was that one wing stalled before the other, so the plane turned sharply to the right.

.

FOGOFUNK · 28-05-2011 1:36am

robertxxx wrote: »

Right, first off, i know nothing about flying bar sitting in the cattle section.:D

But when poo happens and the autopilot turns off because "it" cant make sense of the readings its getting due to icing/faulty sensors etc..and the pilot is starting panicking due to these false readings, why don't pilots with vast experience go back to basics and try not to fix a problem with a problem.
EG; they can see the "throttle" is at a certain position and they can hear the engines then they should roughly know the speed they are going, and as for the pitch is there not some sort of basic physical spirit level so when all else fails and it black outside they have some basic way to make judgments a bit better?

But what do i know:D

The engine power is not directly proportional to the airflow over the wings.

cml387 · 28-05-2011 3:54pm

I note they couldn't climb because it was "too cold".

I wonder were they in "coffin corner",although 38,000 feet wouldn't be that high.

pclancy · 29-05-2011 5:22am

Hard to read that report without being amazed. What on earth made them distrust the artificial horizon and not point the nose down to recover from the stall? It just seems weird to stall that high up and not have time to recover before striking the ocean, even if the main displays were displaying false information could they not read the standby instrumentation? It points to a very confusing final few minutes for the pilots.

Imagine what falling at 10,000fpm felt like to the passengers

JonathanAnon · 30-05-2011 1:23am

Here's a CBS report, which shows a computer simulation of how the flight ended..

Air France Flight 447's harrowing end

Youtube wont allow me to embed cos they have ads attached to it..

Sorry, just a small addition.. Here's an analysis from CNN's Andy Gray type analyst Richard Quest.. He poses the question "Why the cockpit crew continued to keep the nose up, when every pilot from Cesna to jumbo jet... understands and is taught.. that when the plane stalls you have to lose height ... to gain speed... to save the aircraft"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRAwIcIxJ_4

..

Tenger · 30-05-2011 9:54am

I can remember the feeling of cold dread I got when I first saw the list of ACARS messages sent from this aircraft.

Watching that CBS recreation all I can saw was that at least it was only 4 minutes for the pax and crew onboard.

RIP

Air France 447 wreckage found in Atlantic

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