Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

New Children's Hospital at Mater site

Options
12467…10

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    OisinT wrote: »
    The fact remains that sub-urbanisation is not the answer. Building this on some greenfield site really doesn't benefit those outside of Dublin that much. This may have already been posted, but what is the time difference realistically between the greenfield location and the Mater site?

    A study was never done. The report that was done, was based on freeflow conditions. No account of peak traffic. So average city speeds were estimated 32~64 kph. It was only done for 2 city locations, no greenfield site was included in the study.
    OisinT wrote: »
    Doesn't it benefit these children to have a working full hospital next door as well?...

    Why?
    A children's hospital is a full hospital.
    Does the mater have all services/facilities required? No.


  • Options
    #93
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    monument wrote: »
    What I'm saying is not in conflict with the CSO. You keep saying city centre, I'm talking about the city or the city within the M50 -- those are not the same things. And Co Dublin and the Greater Dublin Area are not interchangeable but two different things.

    If you are going to lump Finglas or Palmerstown, in with Phibsoro and not distinguish between the two in terms of access to Mater or a M50 site, then you might aswell say Dublin and not city at all.

    But if at peak it takes you 40 mins from one place and 4 mins from another to get somewhere, it can't be the same location, and shouldn't be treated the same.
    monument wrote: »
    Where have I ignored it? Called it meaningless? I called it next to meanness in the context of travelling cross the country, quite different in my book from meaningless.

    You didn't mention traffic at all. I'd call that ignoring it. Even in the context of travelling anywhere, spending an extra 30 mins or even an hour in the car is hardly meaningless.
    monument wrote: »
    Traffic is also an issue in locations around the M50 and putting a in a hospital in such will increase traffic in the areas given that vast bulk of staff would be more likely to drive.

    The vast majority of staff drive already. Besides theres more traffic from people using the hospital than the staff. A lot of people will have to drive through the M50 to get to the Mater even now. You might actually reduce people on the M50.


  • Options
    #94
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BostonB wrote: »
    If you are going to lump Finglas or Palmerstown, in with Phibsoro and not distinguish between the two in terms of access to Mater or a M50 site, then you might aswell say Dublin and not city at all.

    But if at peak it takes you 40 mins from one place and 4 mins from another to get somewhere, it can't be the same location, and shouldn't be treated the same.

    Even for large parts of Finglas (and many other areas), the Matter is closer time-wise than many locations around the M50.

    BostonB wrote: »
    You didn't mention traffic at all. I'd call that ignoring it. Even in the context of travelling anywhere, spending an extra 30 mins or even an hour in the car is hardly meaningless.

    Err... I've mentioned traffic a number of times in the thread... and you now seem to be pulling random figures out of you head.

    BostonB wrote: »
    The vast majority of staff drive already. Besides theres more traffic from people using the hospital than the staff. A lot of people will have to drive through the M50 to get to the Mater even now. You might actually reduce people on the M50.

    Do the vast majority of staff drive? What hospital? What percentage?


  • Options
    #95
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    You have to view these things in context. The CSO reported from 2006 stats: "Meath had the highest proportions of car ownership at 90% of households, followed by Waterford County and Kildare (both 87%). Four out of ten Dublin households had no car in 2006."

    So, it's more likely easer / quicker / cheaper for people from outside Dublin to get to the Matter than it is for people around Dublin to get to a location outside the M50.


  • Options
    #96
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    monument wrote: »
    Even for large parts of Finglas (and many other areas), the Matter is closer time-wise than many locations around the M50.

    Thats not been my experience of that that route. So I can't agree. Of courses theres no stats to prove it either way. So its basically a guess. Which is hardly the best way to plan a national hospital.
    monument wrote: »
    Err... I've mentioned traffic a number of times in the thread... and you now seem to be pulling random figures out of you head.

    The context was what I quoted, not the entire thread. Thats the point of quoting something. What I said didn't need accurate figures, because it was example of logic. The irony being there was no study done on traffic volumes/problems in the location of this site. Which seems incredible.
    monument wrote: »
    Do the vast majority of staff drive? What hospital? What percentage?

    I asked YOU that previously.

    But the reality we have no stats on this. So you can only pull stats from other studies. which of course are flawed because they are about different locations, and/or business which may not be applicable or comparable.

    Again its incredible to select a site for a 650ish million dollar project based on so little.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    monument wrote: »
    You have to view these things in context. The CSO reported from 2006 stats: "Meath had the highest proportions of car ownership at 90% of households, followed by Waterford County and Kildare (both 87%). Four out of ten Dublin households had no car in 2006."

    So, it's more likely easer / quicker / cheaper for people from outside Dublin to get to the Matter than it is for people around Dublin to get to a location outside the M50.

    Do you have the same stats with only households with kids? Otherwise they won't be using a children's hospital at all.

    Best I could get was 1/5 of Dublin households have a traditional family (19.4%). below the national average. Highest are Meath (39.5%) and Kildare (38.3%).


  • Options
    #98
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    The context was what I quoted, not the entire thread. Thats the point of quoting something. What I said didn't need accurate figures, because it was example of logic. The irony being there was no study done on traffic volumes/problems in the location of this site. Which seems incredible.

    Sorry, but the context is the whole thread. It's a thread, not a private chat between me and you. :)

    BostonB wrote: »
    I asked YOU that previously.

    But the reality we have no stats on this. So you can only pull stats from other studies. which of course are flawed because they are about different locations, and/or business which may not be applicable or comparable.

    Again its incredible to select a site for a 650ish million dollar project based on so little.

    You just said the vast majority of staff drive... Where did you get that from? And for what hospital?

    BostonB wrote: »
    Do you have the same stats with only households with kids? Otherwise they won't be using a children's hospital at all.

    Best I could get was 1/5 of Dublin households have a traditional family (19.4%). below the national average. Highest are Meath (39.5%) and Kildare (38.3%).

    Just because there are less "traditional" families does not mean there are less children (ie single parents, other less traditional families etc).

    All signs are that more and more people will be living in the city and -- as oil prices goes up -- less and less will likely be driving everywhere.


  • Options
    #99
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    The context is not the whole thread. Not if you quote something specifically. otherwise theres no point in quoting. But theres no point quoting it you ignore it.

    Its been covered earlier in the thread. In general public transport use is always in the minority. So its logical. I'd quote it but...

    Its a bit more related than car ownership per household. Considering there isn't a trend of people moving into cites to rear families, or of single people moving out of the city for the night life either.


  • Options
    #100
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BostonB wrote: »
    The context is not the whole thread. Not if you quote something specifically. otherwise theres no point in quoting. But theres no point quoting it you ignore it.

    I'm not sure what you're saying here, but anything quoted or said after quoting much be taken in the context already in the thread, otherwise you're just replying to single points with no context.

    Its been covered earlier in the thread. In general public transport use is always in the minority. So its logical. I'd quote it but...

    What exactly was in that survey which was mentioned before in this thread is still questionable, such as: Was it public transport with or without taxis? All visits to the hospital or just how the sick child arrived? etc

    Its a bit more related than car ownership per household. Considering there isn't a trend of people moving into cites to rear families, or of single people moving out of the city for the night life either.

    That stat on households without a car was for Co Dublin. If you're trying to imply there's no children in Co Dublin, have fun with that one. :)

    Four out of ten Dublin households had no car in 2006. That's quite a stat. Yes, a lot of people moved out of Dublin, but a lot stayed and the population has grown too. Just because many people live their life in a place one way does not mean there are many others living in other places and living in other ways.


  • Options
    #101
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    If the best stat you can come up with car ownership, unrelated even to children. Its obvious theres no quality research been done on Mater site. Pretty much none on a greenfield site.

    Why would the govt/minister not do proper research on the site, then close of all debate on the location.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    ricman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭ricman


    EVEN IF they built it beside james st hospital, there would have been much more space to build ,more parking space,its has good transport links, it has a luas stop ,it would be cheaper to build there.
    IT was a political decision to locate at the mater and fianna fail wont admit they were wrong.IT S designed like a big skyscraper, mediocre design cos there is limited space to build there .ANYONE that knows dublin would say theres at least 5 sites that would be more suitable for building a hospital, near luas, m50 with loads of space for parking , green spaces , and accomodation for parents and easy acess for cars , buses etc
    if you were building a state of the art concert arena, the first thing you look at is, ill get a site that is ideal re public acess ,parking , near the dart,luas, its not that hard to find good sites in dublin.This site placement ,seems to me a mixture of cronyism, or incompetence ,ie like anglo bailout this will cost us millions in the future in extra expenses.
    its like building a new hotel on a marsh, its more complicated and expensive, to build on such a small site.
    if joe bloggs wants to build a hotel on a bad site i don,t care.
    PUBLIC hospital s should be built on ideal sites with regard to acess ,cost,transport links and comfort for parents and the patients and should
    have green spaces and free parking ,theres feck all room for green spaces on that site.


  • Options
    #103
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I'm hoping they'll do some proper research this time...
    Govt expected to review site of new children's hospital

    http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-expected-to-review-site-of-new-childrens-hospital-496385.html

    If the proper research says it should be at the mater than fair enough. I can't see it makes sense myself. Of course the new govt might not do any proper research just like the old one. We'll have to wait and see.


  • Options
    #104
    Cormac Rabbitt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Cormac Rabbitt


    National Paediatric / Children's Hospital - Two attractive locations to consider

    Location 1: The Royal Hospital Kilmainham car park;
    Location 2: St. Patrick’s Hospital and Dr. Steevens.

    From a clinical and teaching hospital point of view… It is significant that both locations are within 110 meters of St. James's Teaching Hospital, which has the most extensive and deepest range of health specialities available in Ireland. (UCD and TCD are as accessible to the locations as the Mater Hospital is).

    From a child’s point of view… Both locations are beside major recreational facilities (Royal Hospital Kilmainham, Phoenix Park & Zoo), which is important because studies show that children (and adults) outcomes are better in park environs.

    From a parent access point of view… The locations are, without doubt, the most readily accessible location within the State. They are served by very extensive national railway & national bus services that extend from Waterford to Ballina (take in all the major cities, etc) and many other bus and Luas services, and most importantly are served directly by our new and very extensive motorway network.

    From a staff member perspective… The locations have existing Luas and other local public transport services available. The services are significantly more extensive then those available to the Mater even when it has a Metro North station. In addition the locations provide a great environment for work (co-location, parks, accommodation, etc).

    From the State's perspective… The locations: facilitate ticking the most 'boxes'; are on land owned by the State; are the most assessable; and importantly can accommodate over 156,000 square metres.

    Summary… The locations could help to facilitate the provision of a National Children's Hospital that is ‘second to none’.


  • Options
    #105
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    While its a much better location than the Mater.

    Isn't that missing the point of the criticisms of the other site. Most people won't use public transport. It doesn't need to be beside an adult hospital, training or not.

    I'm not against it, I just have no meaningful criteria to base a decision on as the limited research done for the Mater was so abysmal and almost non existent as to be useless.


  • Options
    #106
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    BostonB wrote: »
    While its a much better location than the Mater.

    Isn't that missing the point of the criticisms of the other site. Most people won't use public transport. It doesn't need to be beside an adult hospital, training or not.

    I'm not against it, I just have no meaningful criteria to base a decision on as the limited research done for the Mater was so abysmal and almost non existent as to be useless.

    Well ignoring the public transport section you do have the N4 running as dual carriageway in as far as Heuston. There's definetly better road access for most of the country into that part of Dublin then there is into the Mater.


  • Options
    #107
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Well the M1 into the Mater is a great road link. The problem is, the whole area gets grid locked with traffic. Something the N4 and the Quays can also suffer from at times. Its a problem for traffic going cross city, and also people driving up from the country. But its better than the Mater for sure. Better than something outside of the city center. Is open to debate.


  • Options
    #108
    Cormac Rabbitt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Cormac Rabbitt


    BostonB wrote: »
    While its a much better location than the Mater.

    Isn't that missing the point of the criticisms of the other site. Most people won't use public transport. It doesn't need to be beside an adult hospital, training or not.

    I'm not against it, I just have no meaningful criteria to base a decision on as the limited research done for the Mater was so abysmal and almost non existent as to be useless.

    National Paediatric / Children's Hospital - Two attractive locations to consider

    To expand on your issues/concerns.

    Co-location - teaching and research/applications of leading edge techniques are most important for good care outcomes.

    On access, the vast majority of trips generated to/from the Hospital are at peak hours by staff who will use public transport. Consequently, available public transport could be seen as very important in that it deals with the congestion and quality of life issues...

    The point of providing public transport does not diminish the issue of road access. Luckily the Locations at between Heuston Station and St. James's Hospital also provide the highest level of road access available in the State, except for possibility at the junction M50 with the N7 Naas Road. Access by cycles, walks, etc, must also be considered.


  • Options
    #109
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Personally I can't see the option at the "Royal Hospital" been viable. It's by far one of the most important architecture/historic sites in the city. The proposal would completley overawe it as well as destroy the approach context to the hospital.


  • Options
    #110
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Cormac Rabbitt wrote: »
    To expand on your issues/concerns.

    Co-location - teaching and research/applications of leading edge techniques are most important for good care outcomes.

    On access, the vast majority of trips generated to/from the Hospital are at peak hours by staff who will use public transport. Consequently, available public transport could be seen as very important in that it deals with the congestion and quality of life issues...

    The point of providing public transport does not diminish the issue of road access. Luckily the Locations at between Heuston Station and St. James's Hospital also provide the highest level of road access available in the State, except for possibility at the junction M50 with the N7 Naas Road. Access by cycles, walks, etc, must also be considered.

    Do you have an stats on the types of transport used by people and staff using the hospital. Also on the journey times peak and off peak from difference locations, for different types of vehicles, ambulances, cars, buses etc. There was no meaningful data for the Mater site as the studies were fundamentally flawed.

    Co-location having advantages for paediatric hospital have been called into question by paediatric professionals. Who decided that was a criteria? Likewise that seems to have come from questionable sources.


  • Options
    #111
    Cormac Rabbitt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Cormac Rabbitt


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Personally I can't see the option at the "Royal Hospital" been viable. It's by far one of the most important architecture/historic sites in the city. The proposal would completley overawe it as well as destroy the approach context to the hospital.


    National Paediatric / Children's Hospital - Two attractive locations to consider

    Stand in the car park (its only a car park) and imagine an architecturally great building that reflects the Royal Hospital building, etc, with its road access totally concealed. Such a building I believe could only enhance the architecture/historic aspects of the Royal Hospital and in addition provide massive added benefits (visual/use)...


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Cormac Rabbitt wrote: »
    Stand in the car park (its only a car park) and imagine an architecturally great building that reflects the Royal Hospital building, etc, with its road access totally concealed. Such a building I believe could only enhance the architecture/historic aspects of the Royal Hospital and in addition provide massive added benefits (visual/use)...

    Stand at the entrance "avenue" the Royal Hospital. you can see the building clearly. You basically have a grand avenue to walk up to the building. The plan for new building would block that view as you enter the grounds. Placing such a building where you propose completely destroys the context that the building was laid out in the 17th century. The Royal Hospital is by far the most important bit of late 17th century architecture Dublin. I'd put your proposed hospital there a equivalent to the damage done by the destruction of the continuity of the "Georgian Mile" by the ESB in the 1960's.


  • Options
    #113
    Cormac Rabbitt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Cormac Rabbitt


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Stand at the entrance "avenue" the Royal Hospital. you can see the building clearly. You basically have a grand avenue to walk up to the building. The plan for new building would block that view as you enter the grounds. Placing such a building where you propose completely destroys the context that the building was laid out in the 17th century. The Royal Hospital is by far the most important bit of late 17th century architecture Dublin. I'd put your proposed hospital there a equivalent to the damage done by the destruction of the continuity of the "Georgian Mile" by the ESB in the 1960's.

    National Paediatric / Children's Hospital - Two Attractive Locations to Consider

    The context of the Royal Hospital was an environment that worked for the wounded and dispossessed, which ties-in well with it as a new hospital location.

    I think that the ghosts of wounded soldiers would understand wounded children trying to get better (medical outcomes are better in park environs, etc).

    Avenues are not always straight. They often reveal their secrets slowly, so the curved avenue shown could be a wonderful addition that could reveal 'open-up' aspects of the Royal Hospital better than it does now.

    In fact, the proposal could 'open-up' aspects of the Royal Hospital to those who could best benefit, that is sick children (they could talk about its history, battles, wounder soldiers, doctors, nurses, etc) and also could benefit thousands of others who would not otherwise be there.

    {By the way, one of the greatest supporters of Dargan Proposals, a soldier of the "Georgian Mile", is Senator David Norris who camped in and fought to save the buildings. I think that he would not agree with you.}


  • Options
    #114
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I think you are confusing hospital with visitor attraction. Sick kids are not going to be doing day trips to the Royal Hospital. The current Royal Hospital could do with more child friendly attractions itself. There little or nothing for them to do there at the moment.


  • Options
    #115
    Cormac Rabbitt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Cormac Rabbitt


    BostonB wrote: »
    Do you have an stats on the types of transport used by people and staff using the hospital. Also on the journey times peak and off peak from difference locations, for different types of vehicles, ambulances, cars, buses etc. There was no meaningful data for the Mater site as the studies were fundamentally flawed.

    Co-location having advantages for paediatric hospital have been called into question by paediatric professionals. Who decided that was a criteria? Likewise that seems to have come from questionable sources.

    On your first question, there is a Paper by Enda Murphy and James E. Killen Transportation accessibility issues....

    Their findings are clear, that for a National Hospital a location to the west of Dublin is preferable.

    I think that you could build out from their paper and include the transportation aspects shown on page 3 of National Childerns Hospital Possible Location Choice.pdf, ... for railways and roads. You could take on-board that Parents visiting children to a degree can avoid peak traffic, whereas staff cannot, so issues of sustainable public transport such as trains, cycle-paths, walking, etc, become paramount. In theory, each person using public transport to a degree leaves more road space for a parent that has to drive.

    Could I advise you to approach the issue of accessibility not from Stats, but from how it ought to be.

    Stats are like measuring transport USAGE which really tells you little as there is always 'pent-up' DEMAND. If you design for DEMAND you end up with ridiculous scenarios (10 lane roads, etc). The Dargan Proposal is based on Transport 'NEEDS' for proper planning and development for civilised life. Luckily the Dargan suggested locations have the existing best possible accessibility already in place within the State and in addition the accessibility could be added to by Dargan's Proposal for a DART Interconnector and Circle Line.

    On co-location; Teaching, research, shared facilities... interactions, etc are all important for applying leading-edge care.


  • Options
    #116
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    I'm guessing the problem with the international study under way is that it likely won't see much of a problem with the Matter site in international terms. That'll annoy a lot of people.

    There's a lot of very Irish thinking in overstating access issues for the Matter site:
    • The N1, N2, and N3 all lead to the site, even if they are urban streets at the ends.
    • There's motorway -- M1 / the Port Tunnel -- about 3km from it straight down the R101 (that's the North Circular Road / Seville Place / Sheriff Street) or 3.6km over the over ground N1 route (Drumcondra Road / Swords Road).
    • Dual carriage way on the N2 ends just about 1.5km from the Matter.
    • It's less than 2km from the N4 / the quays.
    • Anybody driving there in an emergency -- bus lanes can be used and lead right up to the site via the N1 and most of the way via the N2 and N4.
    • The Greater Dublin Area accounts for nearly 40% (39.3%) of the population of Ireland. Co Dublin alone accounts for 28%. That population share is expected to grow, not decline.
    • That 40% is even higher if you include the Drogheda area which is currently not included the Greater Dublin Area (GDA), even when other places in the GDA are as close.
    • Of the 40% of people in the State in the Great Dublin Area, nearly half (47%) live within the M50.
    • While their arrival to the hospital maybe in cars (ie taxi, getting a lift etc), loads of sick children use trains to get up to Dublin

    In a way, those points above are put in a very Irish way. Anywhere else and the first thing I'd be highlighting is the fact that 20% of the population are inside the M50, nearly 30% in Co Dublin and over 40% in Dublin and the surrounding counties.


  • Options
    #117
    robd
    Registered Users Posts: 951 ✭✭✭robd


    monument wrote: »
    I'm guessing the problem with the international study under way is that it likely won't see much of a problem with the Matter site in international terms. That'll annoy a lot of people.

    There's a lot of very Irish thinking in overstating access issues for the Matter site:
    • The N1, N2, and N3 all lead to the site, even if they are urban streets at the ends.
    • There's motorway -- M1 / the Port Tunnel -- about 3km from it straight down the R101 (that's the North Circular Road / Seville Place / Sheriff Street) or 3.6km over the over ground N1 route (Drumcondra Road / Swords Road).
    • Dual carriage way on the N2 ends just about 1.5km from the Matter.
    • It's less than 2km from the N4 / the quays.
    • Anybody driving there in an emergency -- bus lanes can be used and lead right up to the site via the N1 and most of the way via the N2 and N4.
    • The Greater Dublin Area accounts for nearly 40% (39.3%) of the population of Ireland. Co Dublin alone accounts for 28%. That population share is expected to grow, not decline.
    • That 40% is even higher if you include the Drogheda area which is currently not included the Greater Dublin Area (GDA), even when other places in the GDA are as close.
    • Of the 40% of people in the State in the Great Dublin Area, nearly half (47%) live within the M50.
    • While their arrival to the hospital maybe in cars (ie taxi, getting a lift etc), loads of sick children use trains to get up to Dublin

    In a way, those points above are put in a very Irish way. Anywhere else and the first thing I'd be highlighting is the fact that 20% of the population are inside the M50, nearly 30% in Co Dublin and over 40% in Dublin and the surrounding counties.

    What parent with a sick child would choose public transport over a car, in Dublin or anywhere else in the country? Basic human nature would be to go for the most convenient and comfortable mode available, which even at times of "no stress" is the car in Ireland. No-one in their right mind who has access to a car would put their child through Ireland's public transport.

    Also, your argument completely ignores parking. Even the crater that is the Mater isn't deep enough to house staff and parent, let alone visitor cars for two hospitals that size. The streets around offer very limited on-street parking.

    Staff will always choose the car when available due to the anti-social hours which don't work in this country for public transport. Arguments that they should are idealistic nonsense at best given that public transport is being curtailed all over the country as a result of the downturn.

    Then there's the traffic. You've got the N1, N2, N3 and Ballymun Road all feeding into the block. As a result, the whole block around the Mater is completely nuts with traffic all the time. 8-9pm on a week night is still horrendous. Sunday morning is about the only light time.

    I live close enough to the Mater (it's my local hospital) and I think it's a terrible idea for Dublin let alone for the whole country. A run around the M50 and onto the N4 or N7 would be a much bigger preference. I generally head to Beaumont rather than the Mater if I need anything due to insane traffic that close to City Centre and lack of parking.

    This was a classic "Bertie Special" of a plan if ever I saw one. St. Lukes being only a short stroll up the N1 (Dorset Street).


  • Options
    #118
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Cormac Rabbitt wrote: »
    On your first question, there is a Paper by Enda Murphy and James E. Killen ....

    Their findings are clear, that for a National Hospital a location to the west of Dublin is preferable.....

    ...except its completely flawed....
    ...It is our considered view that the TCD access study (“Distance and Travel Time Calculations for a Proposed National Paediatric Hospital in Dublin: A Report to the HSE” SAHRU, TCD, March 2006) relied upon by the Joint HSE/DOHC Group was flawed, insofar as it only assessed two city centre sites while assuming free-flow conditions, and did not consider access to other sites such as a peripheral green-field location. In our view the access issue needs to be reconsidered in the wider social appraisal of this vital national capital project. No ambulance access times were studied for any site....

    http://thenewchildrenshospital.ie/mater/selection.html

    In my opinion that report was specifically constrained in order to deliberately favour the Mater and exclude any other options. You've no research just copying some flawed report, and thus, you're just applying the same bias to another city location.

    Its just doesn't make sense that you put something (Mater site) on the far edge of its catchment. Its not even central to the 40% in Dublin. Never mind its definitely not central to the other 60% of the population. It also makes no sense that you'd put it the middle of an area with Heavy traffic, and with little or no parking. Or that all the research complete negates these issues. Theres something rotten about that.

    IMO Royal Hospital is better, because it moves it closer to what you'd logically expect a NATIONAL hospital to be, and further outside of a city with lots of traffic problems. Its probably more central to the 40% of Dublin to. But theres no data or unbiased research to prove it either way.

    The people looking for these city locations don't seem to the the people using the hospital on a regular basis. Its seems to be the people living near the locations.


  • Options
    #119
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Cormac Rabbitt wrote: »
    ...Could I advise you to approach the issue of accessibility not from Stats, but from how it ought to be. ....

    I think you'll find peoples idea of how things ought to be varies enormously.

    For Royal Kilmainham is a nightmare for me to get to at peak in the morning. Its theoretically on my commuting route. I could get to Navan quicker. Our regular appointments in Temple Street are always at 10am, which in reality is 9am if you want to get to the head of the queue , which in reality is 8am is you want to beat the traffic. Royal Kilmainham would be no improvement for that. And I'm in Dublin. If I was coming from the country god knows what we'd do.


  • Options
    #120
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    This is a longer term project, oil is already getting so expensive driving matters less and less each year. Don't trust greens or left wing loons? Read the right wing, but very fact driven Economist then.

    robd wrote: »
    What parent with a sick child would choose public transport over a car, in Dublin or anywhere else in the country? Basic human nature would be to go for the most convenient and comfortable mode available, which even at times of "no stress" is the car in Ireland. No-one in their right mind who has access to a car would put their child through Ireland's public transport.

    :rolleyes:

    What hyperbole nonsense.

    When I grew up in Mayo, myself and my sister travailed up to Dublin more than a few times to hospitals, both by car and by train. The train was always much more preferable. As a child it gave use far more comfort and freedom. You can interact with each other, move around, you have toilets on board, and you can use the tables on trains to do a lot more than you can in the car.

    Of course, trains don't suit some sick children. Our problems turned out to be fairly minor in the greater scheme of things, but that's the case for many children who need to travel up to Dublin.

    robd wrote: »
    Staff will always choose the car when available due to the anti-social hours which don't work in this country for public transport. Arguments that they should are idealistic nonsense at best given that public transport is being curtailed all over the country as a result of the downturn

    That's just not true.

    Most staff in all hospitals are on the day shift and the Mater has been one of the leaders in switching staff from cars to public transport and cycling, as already quoted in this thread:
    Mr. Gerry Murphy, National Transport Authority at the Oireachtas Committee on Transport:

    The National Transport Authority operates the national smarter travel workplaces programme which supports employer organisations in encouraging more sustainable commuting and travel choices among staff. At this stage, the number of large workplaces participating has reached 66, involving 110,000 staff representing a wide variety of sectors, including for example the ESB, Microsoft, Pfizer, University College Galway, and Letterkenny General Hospital. We plan to work with 100 of the largest employers in Ireland by mid-2012, involving 250,000 staff, and then to extend the principle of workplace travel planning to smaller organisations across the country. The results from this programme are enormously encouraging. A recent comprehensive staff travel survey in the Mater Hospital, one of the first partners in the programme, has shown a 30% reduction in car usage among staff. Results from five other organisations have been received, the Department of Transport, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, South Dublin County Council, Dublin Institute of Technology, and Dublin Airport Authority and these show an average reduction of 16% single occupancy car use.

    robd wrote: »
    Then there's the traffic. You've got the N1, N2, N3 and Ballymun Road all feeding into the block. As a result, the whole block around the Mater is completely nuts with traffic all the time. 8-9pm on a week night is still horrendous. Sunday morning is about the only light time.

    I pass through the area to get home, that's overstating it. Traffic flows fairly freely most of the time.

    There's traffic everywhere, including around green field sites, and that traffic is going to increase hugely on a site where there are few public transport options and for cycling its in the middle of nowhere.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Apart from these vague soundbites. Are there any hard stats on staff and non staff using public transport vs cars across all the hospital broken down by location


Advertisement