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Roundabout

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1246

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    #92
    galah
    Registered Users Posts: 2,215 ✭✭✭galah


    but it's at 12 o'clock. straight through, so left lane. don't care how many other exits there are before that...

    ROtr:

    Going straight ahead:
    Approach in the left-hand lane but do not signal yet.
    Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.


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    #93
    Caliden
    Registered Users Posts: 5,982 ✭✭✭Caliden


    galah wrote: »
    but it's at 12 o'clock. straight through, so left lane. don't care how many other exits there are before that...

    ROtr:

    Going straight ahead:
    Approach in the left-hand lane but do not signal yet.
    Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

    +1


    Where did this 'third exit' theory come in?


    There's been adverts on tv showing: straight ahead = left lane, after that = right lane.

    Also, here's the signage coming from Bohermore to the roundabout - HERE


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    #94
    galah
    Registered Users Posts: 2,215 ✭✭✭galah


    Thanks for posting the road sign - I couldn't find it, but it looks like I didnt go far back enough along Bohermore ;-)


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    #95
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    No reflection on anyone posting here, but this roundabout 'debate' is turning into the Keystone Cops.

    Only in Ireland(?) would the rules and the road design be so vague as to cause such argument and confusion.

    That's it, I'm mad as hell and I can't take it any more. :) I'm off to get some formal input from the RSA and AGS.

    BTW, IMO an earlier response from the RSA on this vexed question, posted elsewhere on Boards, is utter bunk.


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    #96
    Average-Ro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Average-Ro


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    BTW, IMO an earlier response from the RSA on this vexed question, posted elsewhere on Boards, is utter bunk.

    What's wrong with that response? The RSA themselves say that the clock method is the one to use.

    In that case, coming from Bohermore and going onto the Tuam road, you should be in the left lane, not the right.


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    #97
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Average-Ro wrote: »
    What's wrong with that response? The RSA themselves say that the clock method is the one to use.

    In that case, coming from Bohermore and going onto the Tuam road, you should be in the left lane, not the right.



    Anyone who uses terminology such as "any Exit from the 1.pm to 5.pm position" is not the brightest star in the firmament, IMO.

    Anyway, I'm saying nowt more about the substantive issue until I've made some enquiries.


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    #98
    Average-Ro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Average-Ro


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Anyone who use terminology such as "any Exit from the 1.pm to 5.pm position" is not the brightest star in the firmament, IMO.

    Anyway, I'm saying nowt more about the substantive issue until I've made some enquiries.

    It makes sense to me, and it's the way I was taught to navigate a roundabout, and it's also what the RSA confirmed when asked about it.

    Fair enough if you belive otherwise and want to enquire about it; but please let us know what their reply is:)

    Edit to say: I read back over that and it sounded really smug, that wasn't my intention at all. I'm geniunely curious to see what their response is. It wouldn't surprise me if they contradicted what they said before.


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    #99
    complicit
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭complicit


    ValerieR wrote: »
    The way I learnt, in another European country, ...

    - if you are taking the 1st or 2nd exit (no matter what the angle is), take the 'slow' lane
    - if you are taking the 2nd or later exit, take the 'fast' lane.
    - if you are taking a later exit, move, while on the roundabout, from the 'fast' lane to the 'slow' lane before your exit

    V

    This is the correct answer


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    #100
    galah
    Registered Users Posts: 2,215 ✭✭✭galah


    no it's not...see the 'Bohermore roundabout' debate further up.
    You have to take the signage into consideration!


    The bit you posted also contradicts itself....
    if you are taking the 1st or 2nd exit (no matter what the angle is), take the 'slow' lane
    - if you are taking the 2nd or later exit, take the 'fast' lane.


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    #101
    Average-Ro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Average-Ro


    complicit wrote: »
    This is the correct answer

    Afraid not, look at the link to the RSA's answer further up in post 95.


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    #102
    dloob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭dloob


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Anyone who uses terminology such as "any Exit from the 1.pm to 5.pm position" is not the brightest star in the firmament, IMO.

    Anyway, I'm saying nowt more about the substantive issue until I've made some enquiries.

    It's the terminology the RSA use in the driving test marking guide.
    Well without any pm or am admittedly.


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    #103
    KylieWyley
    Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭KylieWyley


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Anyone who uses terminology such as "any Exit from the 1.pm to 5.pm position" is not the brightest star in the firmament, IMO.

    Anyway, I'm saying nowt more about the substantive issue until I've made some enquiries.

    This video should be enquiry enough and it proves you are not the brightest star yourself.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPjIlh9DTZc


    It's an o'clock approach the RSA suggest (well, the terminology they use is whether our desired exit is on the 'left', 'right', or 'straight ahead').

    In any event, direction seems to be the deciding factor rather than the number appointed to the exit (i.e. second, third, etc.)

    BornToBe? wrote: »
    Again, your on the N6, so continue on the N6, and dont be thinking about how many degrees off centre the exist is.
    Anyways, do what ya want, but I'm not gonna argue about it. Just dont like OP preaching to me, esp when they're just pissed off about getting stuck in traffic coming off a secondary route onto a primary route, the hint is in the sceondary / primary

    This is also wrong. The direction you're heading is the sole deciding factor and the status of the roads is irrelevant.


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    #104
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    KylieWyley wrote: »
    This video should be enquiry enough and it proves you are not the brightest star yourself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPjIlh9DTZc

    It's an o'clock approach the RSA suggest (well, the terminology they use is whether our desired exit is on the 'left', 'right', or 'straight ahead').

    In any event, direction seems to be the deciding factor rather than the number appointed to the exit (i.e. second, third, etc.)

    This is also wrong. The direction you're heading is the sole deciding factor and the status of the roads is irrelevant.

    I had to come out of recess for this.

    That's absurd. The Rules of the Road themselves are just an interpretation of the law, so a video is far from being the last word on the subject.

    My "brightest star" reference was to the RSA staff member who referred to "pm" on a clock. That's just bunk, as is a set of guidelines that refer to the clock method for one set of road users and vague terms like "straight on" to another.

    "Seems to be" -- that makes my point for me. There is a lack of clarity with regard to the proper way to use roundabouts in Ireland, of which there are many and varied examples.

    The Rules of the Road as set out here do not mention "any exit in the 6 o’clock to 12 o’clock position" at all.

    Instead, there is an illustration of an idealised roundabout in a + formation and references to "going straight ahead" and "taking any later exits".

    However, in Ireland there are many roundabouts that do not fit the above. What does "going straight ahead" mean on a 5-arm roundabout for example?

    What I recall being taught many years ago, and was repeatedly reminded of in road safety ads later, was to keep left when taking the first or second exits. If taking the third or subsequent exits, the instruction was to take the right-hand lane and keep indicating right until past the exit before the one you were going to take.

    The RSA video on using roundabouts refers only to the 'idealised' 4-arm roundabout in the + formation and makes no attempt to recognise the existence of 5-arm roundabouts for example. There is just a simple reference to "going right", which happens to coincide in the video with taking the third exit.

    The first/second/subsequent exit approach is still in use, such as on these driving school websites:

    http://www.lireland.com/theory/roundabouts.htm
    http://www.driveskill.ie/Roundabouts.htm

    How can the first/second/subsequent exit method be taught if it is not explicitly recognised or mentioned by the RSA?

    Clearly there is confusion about the rules and conflicting advice regarding the way to navigate roundabouts.

    "Seems to be" is no way to promote good and safe driving on the roads.


  • Options
    #105
    KylieWyley
    Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭KylieWyley


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    "Seems to be" is no way to promote good and safe driving on the roads.

    Agreed.

    Problem is: different roads have different conventions applied, leading to many inconsistencies and incongruities - e.g. at the crossroads just after the Quincentennial Bridge, if you coming down to it from Dangan/IDA the regular convention of left lane to go left or straight doesn't apply. The same inconsistencies have crept into peoples approaches to different roundabouts based on the size of the roundabout and the perceived 'convenience' of their approach.

    For roundabouts, I personally employ a compass approach - i.e:
    anything SSW -> N = left-hand lane
    anything NNE -> SSE = right-hand lane


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    #106
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    KylieWyley wrote: »
    Agreed.

    Problem is: different roads have different conventions applied, leading to many inconsistencies and incongruities - e.g. at the crossroads just after the Quincentennial Bridge, if you coming down to it from Dangan/IDA the regular convention of left lane to go left or straight doesn't apply. The same inconsistencies have crept into peoples approaches to different roundabouts based on the size of the roundabout and the perceived 'convenience' of their approach.

    For roundabouts, I personally employ a compass approach - i.e:
    anything SSW -> N = left-hand lane
    anything NNE -> SSE = right-hand lane



    Thanks for that. Can you link to the roundabout you mean on Google maps?

    The problem with personal methods for navigating roundabouts is that everybody might have their own unique twist. The result would be chaos.

    Now that I think of it, chaos is exactly what we have on many roundabouts...


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    #107
    swine
    Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭swine


    ...


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    #108
    axiom32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭axiom32


    desaparecidos wrote: »
    This is wrong:

    2vk13dj.jpg

    i totally agree why havent they put in the rest of the trees, in yrs to come will people be able to see the point where we couldn't even afford trees


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    #109
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    BornToBe? wrote: »
    No, it's not,

    nothing worse than bad drivers giving out to people doing the right thing.
    When traveling straight (I would consider that exist to be within the "straight ahead" parameters) stay in the Left lane, unless road markings say other wise.
    and now before you have a hissy fit:

    http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

    But, if you do feel strongly about this, continue to do what you do and when you crash or cause a crash, a nice judge will educate you and you'll have to pay for the privllage.

    Thanks

    Are you saying that on a roundabout where you are on the N6 for example, that you are exiting on the N6 so its straight on because your still on the N6 even though you are taking the 3rd exit?

    Well that is not right, which lane you take is based on which physical exit you will take to allow others not to have to cut across drivers going to the 3rd exit who are wrongly in the outside lane, not on the fact you will continue on the same road after exiting the roundabout.

    So if your on the N6 and to continue on the N6 requires you to take the 3rd exit, you must be in the right lane. To think that is straight on at a roundabout and therefore you can go all the way around it in the left lane is unbelievable driving, do you not see why the first and second exits are to be taken from the left lane? Nothing to do with being on the same actual road after you leave the roundabout.


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    #110
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Cleahaigh wrote: »
    At peak times the traffic would still just queue back up the road from Briarhill, through and over the junction. Briarhill is the source of the problem, that's where a solution needs to be found.

    The bridge would cost in excess of a million euros. The extra landtake in a residential zoned area would also have constituted a major additional cost. Your almost certainly talking in excess of three million euros in total.

    The presence of an overbridge in close proximity to a rapidly developing residential area would also have been problemetical from an environmental and project acceptability point of view.

    A dedicated bus only route is also planned to continue from that junction through Merlin Park at some unspecified time in the future. This would imply that an overbridge solution would probably be based on a dumbbell solution, which would give you two roundabouts instead of one. A freeflow facility at a four-way junction would be a pretty imposing creation at that location.

    I would be strongly in favour of a flyover being built at Briarhill had the Doughiska junction been correctly built in the first place. Now what's the point in doing Briarhill unless the new roundabout at Doughiska is ripped up and rebuilt also.

    In terms of cost, the building of the roundabout meant that a large section of the then existing Dual Carriageway had to be ripped up + rebuilt. This had to be done with a live flow of traffic - this type of traffic management is costly and slows the project down. A trumpet junction would have required one bridge over the then existing DC which could have been left intact and some earthworks for the ramps; traffic management would have been pretty straight forward also. A compact trumpet would have required very little extra land, so little that it's not even worth talking about.

    Remaining on the cost issue, even if a free flow junction did cost a bit more then it still should have been done. After spending roughly €1 Billion on a 200km motorway the whole way from Dublin we may as well have spent €1 or 2 million more* on a proper junction where this motorway/DC meets another DC in Galway.

    *that's if it would have costed more, I think the difference would have been negligible.

    Some people at the time said "a roundabout in Doughiska will do because Briarhill will still cause problems". Two wrongs don't make a right and there is no excuse for building a pathetic junction to connect to busy Dual Carriageways because there is another pathetic junction nearby (Briarhill). We can't really justify upgrading Briarhill now because Doughiska wasn't done right..


  • Options
    #111
    BESman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 563 ✭✭✭BESman


    I was taught by a driving instructor (among others) that for first and second exits you use the inside lane and for third and subsequent exits you use the outside lane. This method passed my test. From experience, I have come to the conclusion that driving breeds incredibly selfish behaviour. As one poster has stated previously, she uses the inside lane coming from Terryland to get onto the N6 exit because the traffic moves quicker this way. This is an example of a driver performing a dangerous maneuver simply because it benefits her.

    On an unrelated point, I hate when a driver comes onto a main road at a junction causing the car they pull out in front of to break and slow down. They tend to drive well below the speed limit once they are on the main road. I often wonder why they were in such a rush to get onto the road in the first place if they were not going to drive at the speed limit.


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    #112
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    BESman wrote: »
    I was taught by a driving instructor (among others) that for first and second exits you use the inside lane and for third and subsequent exits you use the outside lane. This method passed my test. From experience, I have come to the conclusion that driving breeds incredibly selfish behaviour. As one poster has stated previously, she uses the inside lane coming from Terryland to get onto the N6 exit because the traffic moves quicker this way. This is an example of a driver performing a dangerous maneuver simply because it benefits her.

    On an unrelated point, I hate when a driver comes onto a main road at a junction causing the car they pull out in front of to break and slow down. They tend to drive well below the speed limit once they are on the main road. I often wonder why they were in such a rush to get onto the road in the first place if they were not going to drive at the speed limit.


    That sounds like the method I use (and which is endorsed by various driving schools on their websites) though I would quibble with your use of terms like "outside lane" and "inside lane" as these seem to mean different things to different people. I've even seen "fast lane" used in reference to roundabouts!

    Nothing like roundabouts to cause arguments. Look at the trouble I'm in here, and I'm not even trying to pick a fight!


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    #113
    Pulsating Star
    Registered Users Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Pulsating Star


    Caliden wrote: »
    Although I did have someone beep at me here - HERE - when I went out the tuam road coming from bohermore when they were in the right lane coming on to the roundabout.

    The clock method was fairly simple there, dunno why he thought he was in the correct lane.

    Im only slightly ashamed to admit that coming from the headford rd / Terryland side on to the menlo roundabout in the evenings, that I take the left lane to go right. The traffic flows quicker ;)

    wrong, wrong and wrong

    I was going to write more in support of the OP, BESman and others but its a waste of time with people using this clock rubbish rather than the common sense exit no. approach. Crossing in front of people comming off is just so ridiculous,I'd rather have my T-Bone on a plate thanks very much!


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    #114
    Pulsating Star
    Registered Users Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Pulsating Star


    KevR wrote: »
    .

    Passed through the Menlo Park roundabout this morning and a guy was pulled over by the Garda Traffic Corps just after the pedestrian lights (exit if you're heading up to the Tuam Rd roundabout). Didn't see what he did but the thought did cross my mind that the Garda saw him using the wrong lane on the roundabout..

    I have heard of the Gardai pulling people for using the left lane to take the third exit on the Menlo Pk roundabout. I think they also used to pull people for the same thing at the old N6 roundabout in Oranmore.

    If so, the Guard doing the pulling should be giving some lessons to their comrades..
    Last time I followed a squad car around the Menlo RB they used the outside lane to right around for the fifth exit :eek:,
    On the three occasions I watched them use the RBs last year they managed to get it wrong each time.


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    #115
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Pulsating Star wrote: »
    wrong, wrong and wrong

    I was going to write more in support of the OP, BESman and others but its a waste of time with people using this clock rubbish rather than the common sense exit no. approach. Crossing in front of people comming off is just so ridiculous,I'd rather have my T-Bone on a plate thanks very much!


    I don't like steak tartare.

    Thing is, many motorists are using the Clock-Face method in good faith because that is what is being taught by ADI driving instructors. I have it on good authority that this is the RSA-endorsed method, though I have yet to find out when it began to be used.

    Other motorists, perhaps as many as 50%, are using the number-of-exits approach. They are doing so in good faith also, because that is what they were taught and the RSA has not clearly abolished that method.

    IMO, the RoTR fails to clarify the issue, and we are left in a situation where real confusion arises. Both sides believe they are right, and that their practice is officially endorsed.

    I suspect yet another Irish Solution To An Irish Problem.



    Pulsating Star wrote: »
    If so, the Guard doing the pulling should be giving some lessons to their comrades..
    Last time I followed a squad car around the Menlo RB they used the outside lane to right around for the fifth exit :eek:,
    On the three occasions I watched them use the RBs last year they managed to get it wrong each time.


    I do not rely 100% on AGS to recognise, observe, detect or deter road traffic violations.


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    #116
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I do not rely 100% on AGS to recognise, observe, detect or deter road traffic violations.

    I'll second that, I had to explain to one of the clowns before why I was writing on the back of my Tachograph. He was Traffic corps as well not your bog standard cop


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    #117
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    KevR wrote: »
    We can't really justify upgrading Briarhill now because Doughiska wasn't done right..

    Kev, you can't look at briarhill or Coolough (what you are referring to as doughiska, that's actually what people are referring to as Galway clinic - it was douighiska long before the clinic was built, same was as ballybane is still the digital roundabout - but i digress) in isolation of the road system it's a component of.

    The Monivea road system, from Carnmore, Parkmore & Castlepark/Mervue also feed into this junction, which makes any kind of freeflow junction here problematic from a space point of view. The real problem here is that the city council gave planning permission for western Motors and didn't re-route both the Monivea & Parkmore roads into one exit - which would greatly alleviate the queuing that happens because of the ridiculously short outward filter time on the lights at the parkmore junction.

    As for the other rab (doughiska/coolough take your pick), this was designed to be built with a bypass already delivered or on they way and was originally a T not a RAB or freeflow junction.


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    #118
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Kev, you can't look at briarhill or Coolough (what you are referring to as doughiska, that's actually what people are referring to as Galway clinic - it was douighiska long before the clinic was built, same was as ballybane is still the digital roundabout - but i digress) in isolation of the road system it's a component of.

    The Monivea road system, from Carnmore, Parkmore & Castlepark/Merview also feed into this junction, which makes any kind of freeflow junction here problematic from a space point of view. The real problem here is that the city council gave planning permission for western Motors and didn't re-route both the Monivea & Parkmore roads into one exit - which would greatly alleviate the queuing that happens because of the ridiculously short outward filter time on the lights at the parkmore junction.

    As for the other rab (doughiska/coolough take your pick), this was designed to be built with a bypass already delivered or on they way and was originally a T not a RAB or freeflow junction.

    I'd only envisage a full free-flow (a simple compact trumpet) junction at Doughiska. Briarhill would not be easy to upgrade to full free-flow, impossible really without demolishing surrounding buildings. I was thinking along the lines of a flyover/underpass so that the N6 DC is grade seperated at the Briarhill junction. Similar to what they did at one of the roundabouts on the Cork South Ring Road; they are also planning on doing the same thing at a couple of more roundabouts on the same road very soon.

    A flyover at Briarhill would have huge benefits for people travelling on the N6, especially Eastbound in the evening (can spend up to 15-20 mins queuing for the Briarhill roundabout some evenings). It would also really help the other 2 roads which pass through the roundabout: N6-->N6 traffic is currently the dominant flow on the roundabout, by removing the N6 traffic it would free up the roundabout for other traffic.

    The short section of new Dual Carriageway from near Galway Airport (where the Galway Bypass was supposed to join) to the roundabout in Doughiska wasn't actually part of the original plan at all. It was omitted initially because the people planning the M6 were under the impression that the Galway BP would be built in tandem with the M6. When it was realised that the bypass would be delayed, the section extra section to Doughiska with a roundabout at the end was added on because it wouldn't have been suitable to terminate the M6 at the N18 junction in the meantime.


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    #119
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Pulsating Star wrote: »
    wrong, wrong and wrong

    I was going to write more in support of the OP, BESman and others but its a waste of time with people using this clock rubbish rather than the common sense exit no. approach. Crossing in front of people comming off is just so ridiculous,I'd rather have my T-Bone on a plate thanks very much!

    I think your right there, the clock face might be fine for giving an analagy to a new learner, but people should be able to move on from that and realise why they are in a particular lane onto a roundabout, not be thinking of clock faces like a pre programmed robot with no thinking process.


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    #120
    Fozzie Bear
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Fozzie Bear


    This is getting crazy now. Why the fcuk are people incapable of using a roundabout correctly? I think we need a major advertising campaign. The sheer amount of people using the outside(left) lane to take the 3/4/5 exit off roundabouts is simply crazy. In the past month I have seen a Garda van do this at the Ballybrit roundabout, coming up from Tuam road and heading out Ballybane road. A truck do it at the Briarhill roundabout, came up from Ballybrit and headed into Dunnes at Briarhill. A Bus doing it at the Galway clinic roundabout, came off the motorway on the slip road up to the r/about and headed into town via Roscam/Merlin park and any amount of other bloody muppets doing the same at the Menlo, Oranmore, Tuam road.... well just about every single round about in Galway city.


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    #121
    tightropetom
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭tightropetom


    The problem with following the path shown in that first picture is this:

    People in Ireland seem to think that you can use the right hand lane to take the second exit on a roundabout (you can't unless the left lane is left turn only or unless directed to do so by a Garda), so if some clever clogs in a white van decides he's going to skip the line of traffic, who are correctly in the right hand lane to take the third exit, by going in the left lane to take that third exit, he may end up crashing in to a person who is using the right hand lane to take the second exit. It would be interesting to see who would be considered at fault by the insurance company.

    The rules of the road book give diagrams only showing 4 exit roundabouts and that's half the problem.

    The rule is that you use the left hand lane for exit one and two, and the right hand lane for subsequent exits. (Exceptions are where lanes are arrowed, or when a lane is closed, or when directed to use an alternate lane by a Garda).

    As the Meerkat says: "SIMPLES!"

    T


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