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The Status Of Irish.
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29-11-2010 7:44am#1With the current government on its way out and a FG - Labour government almost a certainty, I would like to see what change people think should be made to the teaching of the Irish Language.
Fine Gael is as far as I know working on a new education policy. In their old education policy they famously (or infamously depending on your point of view)proposed dropping the Compulsory status of Irish in the last two years of secondary school. The claim being that if Children were free to choose Irish they would learn it, and do so more successfully due to love for the language.
Here is an analysis of that proposal by the Former President of Conradh na Gaeilge, Maolsheachlainn Ó Caollaí,
He explains why it would be an act of cultural and national vandalism to dismiss the Irish language from the core curriculum for the Leaving Cert.
The reason whyFine Gael does not and cannot show any evidence that a significant
percentage of speakers of the highest status language in the world
can be motivated by ‘love’ to learn a lower status language.
He also shows how the dropping of compulsion for language learning in England had disastrous results.In 2002 when it became clear that in two years time
languages would no longer be required, a landslide began. In 2001,
before the announcement, 78% of pupils aged 14 to 16 were
learning languages. By 2008, that figure had dropped to 44%
So What do you think, Should Irish be made optional?
Personally I believe the proposal for reform of Irish language education put forward by Conradh na Gaeilge would be the best and most successful way forward.
Beartas Oideachais
Summary.- All trainee teachers should be taught through Irish in an all-Irish environment, learning through and about immersion education in Irish, for the equivalent of one academic year of their training course, divided over the total length of their course and including the vital first few weeks. Students to be given the option to complete the entire course through Irish if they so wish;
- One subject, as well as Irish, should be through the medium of Irish to all primary pupils, initially on a pilot basis with the necessary support and training;
-Two syllabi should be developed for Irish at second level with two different examination papers for the Leaving Certificate and the Junior Certificate exams, Teanga na Gaeilge, or Irish Language to be taught to every student and Litríocht na Gaeilge, or Irish Language Literature for higher level students only.Tagged:2
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I'd be all for something like the Conradh na Gaeilge suggestions. I have little Irish myself but I don't buy into this 'sure it's pointless' mentality. At that rate why don't we just drop all but the top five or six languages and make everyone in the world speak them. An awful lot of people see their language as extremely culturally important so dropping any languages won't happen. If we can get past our ingrained self-loathing of things Irish we could see it blossom again.0
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I'd be all for something like the Conradh na Gaeilge suggestions. I have little Irish myself but I don't buy into this 'sure it's pointless' mentality. At that rate why don't we just drop all but the top five or six languages and make everyone in the world speak them. An awful lot of people see their language as extremely culturally important so dropping any languages won't happen. If we can get past our ingrained self-loathing of things Irish we could see it blossom again.
I wouldn't go as far as to blame 'self-loathing' though there is clearly a tendency by some to dismiss anything Irish out of hand without even a tought.
Certainly, if these proposals were implemented, along with proper support for new Gaelscoileanna. (I believe there are currently ten ongoing campaign's that have the numbers, waiting for Government recognition.) We would see consistent growth in the use of Irish in our society.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »So What do you think, Should Irish be made optional?
Hmm, best thing to do would be to completely drop it from secondary schools altogather.
Secondly, make it more intensive in primary schools by having teachers speak it while teaching other subjects. Maybe drop it as a subject in primary aswell and focus it more on the random things like chatter during other subjects.
If it was done like this people would end up being able to speak it properly and would less associate it with so called 'work'. This is the problem me thinks, that many view it like they view maths or science etc etc, like a subject they dont like and want to escape from, as opposed to part of their own culture.
Make it not a subject at all but part of the daily routine, part of the culture that feeds into every other subject.
The only irish i ever learned was "unbhuil cead agam, dul go di un leartharus, ma sha da hula", pardon my appauling spelling. After 14 years in school one would think i should know a bit more. You get my point.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »I wouldn't go as far as to blame 'self-loathing' though there is clearly a tendency by some to dismiss anything Irish out of hand without even a tought.
Certainly, if these proposals were implemented, along with proper support for new Gaelscoileanna. (I believe there are currently ten ongoing campaign's that have the numbers, waiting for Government recognition.) We would see consistent growth in the use of Irish in our society.
Sure 'self-loathing' was a bit exaggerated. But we do save our sharpest knives for anything or anyone Irish. No Bono thread can go more than a few pages without comparisons to Hitler in some fashion. I appreciate that threads get Godwin'd a lot but still.
I'd love to see more Gaelscoils.0 -
GarlicBread wrote: »Hmm, best thing to do would be to completely drop it from secondary schools altogather.
Secondly, make it more intensive in primary schools by having teachers speak it while teaching other subjects. Maybe drop it as a subject in primary aswell and focus it more on the random things like chatter during other subjects.
If it was done like this people would end up being able to speak it properly and would less associate it with so called 'work'. This is the problem me thinks, that many view it like they view maths or science etc etc, like a subject they dont like and want to escape from, as opposed to part of their own culture.
Make it not a subject at all but part of the daily routine, part of the culture that feeds into every other subject.
The only irish i ever learned was "unbhuil cead agam, dul go di un leartharus, ma sha da hula", pardon my appauling spelling. After 14 years one would think i should know a bit more. You get my point.
The article link I provided deals with why something like that would be disastrous.
While I can see where you are coming from, as the article suggests, the most likely result of a step like that being taken is a major drop in the status of Irish compared to English and as a result less people willing to learn it and therefore state services through Irish becoming less justified, all contributing to a downward spiral.
Think of it this way, The state would be paying to educate primary school teachers in Irish while parents would see no benefit to their kids learning it at all. From there its only a small step to it being dropped completely from the education system.0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »The article link I provided deals with why something like that would be disastrous.
While I can see where you are coming from, as the article suggests, the most likely result of a step like that being taken is a major drop in the status of Irish compared to English and as a result less people willing to learn it and therefore state services through Irish becoming less justified, all contributing to a downward spiral.
Think of it this way, The state would be paying to educate primary school teachers in Irish while parents would see no benefit to their kids learning it at all. From there its only a small step to it being dropped completely from the education system.
From an academic point of view i suppose your right, but at this stage in the game its about salvation more than anything. It would be much much better to have half the country speaking 30% irish / 70% english rather than having a huge divide that exists now.
Either way, i think we could all agree that the first few years of primary school is essential. I think most people dont grasp the basics then so by the time they get to the later stages they are lost completely.
Is ma liom ganzy gurum? Well, i can only try.0 -
GarlicBread wrote: »From an academic point of view i suppose your right, but at this stage in the game its about salvation more than anything. It would be much much better to have half the country speaking 30% irish / 70% english rather than having a huge divide that exists now.
Either way, i think we could all agree that the first few years of primary school is essential. I think most people dont grasp the basics then so by the time they get to the later stages they are lost completely.
Is ma liom ganzy gurum? Well, i can only try.
Yes, but that means it is even more important to use the method that has evidence to support its effectiveness,
The huge divide that exists now has very little to do with Irish being Compulsory, Poor teaching methods and a terribly poor curriculum are the root of the problem.
Indeed you are right, Primary school education is critical, that is why two of the three proposals put forward by CnaG deal with Primary level.0 -
I think the option should be there to drop it in the leaving cert cycle but to be replaced by another language.
Schools on the continent focus much more on languages than we do. Many leave school with their mother tongue, english and one other european language (or more!).
Opens up so many different countries if you already have a grounding in the local language.
Currently we study Irish and German/French.
I think the option should be there to do German, French, Irish, Spanish and maybe chinese? Pick the three you want and run with them. Those seem the major languages needed in the world today.
I also think that the phonetique alphabet should be taught in schools. It would greatly aid the learning (prononciation) of foreign languages at a later date.
Finally I think that the english language curriculum should change. After primary school it basically turns into a literature course. There should still be some grammar, vocabulary (business vocabulary, formal letter writing etc) work as well as the literature aspects. It would prepare people for the english required in the (office) work place and give a better grounding in the rules of grammar in the english language.
They should also change the curriculum of the Irish language. I've done a year of intensive french. At no point have we done any literature or poetry except in the case where it aided the understanding of grammar, vocabulary etc. I have no interest in learning french (or irish) poetry when my grasp of the language isn't sufficient. Perhaps have an Irish culture option in school which runs alongside the Irish language course for those who are interested.0 -
That comparison to foreign languages in England is total horsesh*t. People learn Irish Gaelic for cultural reasons as well as linguistic. Notice he didn't mention how in Wales, Welsh(which is a much more accurate parallel) is fluourishing and it is optional for the final two years there.
Also he's living in typical gaelgoir dreamland if he thinks people doing ordinary level("retard level" would be more appropriate) Irish is having any positive effect on people speaking the language.
People who want to keep it compulsory should hold their hands up and admit they are simply feared that making it optional at leaving cert is the beginning of a slippery slope and nothing to do with practical considerations.
It is so ridiculous, as if you learn anything important at retard level in the final 2 years of a 14 year course. Anyone who does higher would still choose to do it if it were optional.0 -
+1 There's also a substantial financial interest in maintaining compulsory Irish and the obligations imposed by the official langauges act.Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »People who want to keep it compulsory should hold their hands up and admit they are simply feared that making it optional at leaving cert is the beginning of a slippery slope and nothing to do with practical considerations.
There are two issues:
1: Ensuring Irish people can speak another language in addition to their first one (usually this is English).
2: Providing access to quality Irish-language teaching to those who require it.
Ideally, every Irish person should taught to speak two languages, English being one of them. The second langauage choice should be from among the most useful foreign languages and also Irish.
Where an English-speaking Irish person opts for a langauge other than Irish as a second language, the standard of teaching should be as good as that envisaged for Irish.0 -
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A lot of the problems with Irish seem to stem from how it's taught.
Actually, not seem. They do stem from how it's taught.
I was one of those lucky enough to have several fantastic teachers through primary school, particularly around the 4th/5th/6th class level, where kids can actually understand the concept of verbs and tenses (inniu, gach lá, amárach, inné). They are the building blocks of any language - how can you say anything if you don't know the words for the basic verbs?I've picked up Spanish in the last couple of months, and while I was okay with greetings and all that, after about 2 weeks my teacher started in on verbs.Present tense only. And suddenly I'm able to form sentences, and have (slow!) conversations with her.
We teach Irish so badly. If you're lucky, you get a teacher that has an interest and teaches properly.But there are a lot of teachers out there that just don't. Especially at primary school level, where the course is fuzzy at best for that age group. And there's no doubt that at that level English grammar should be taught too, even just the basics.There's no point trying to teach the tinies (5/6/7yr olds) grammar, but at the higher classes, it can be done - the basics.
The thing is that we need to get rid of this idea that Irish is this big bad demon sent to drive us all to hell. It's not. It's just a language. It's got verbs, tenses, nouns, adverbs and rules like every other language. Some words are masculine, some are feminine, same as every other language. And you just learn the rules to deal with each case - same as every other language.
People have the same attitude to maths, you know.Again, a lot of the problem is in the teaching.
So in answer to your question, no I don't think it should be taken out of the curriculum. For a number of reasons - I'm not that patriotic, but it is our language, and it's a lot more alive than we give it credit for. And secondly - why don't we just change how we're teaching it, instead of spoon feeding kids yet again, and taking the big, horrible,(perceived) difficult things out of their lives?? Would we not be better off to take say, religion, out of the curriculum at secondary school and replace it with the option of another language???0 -
Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »That comparison to foreign languages in England is total horsesh*t. People learn Irish Gaelic for cultural reasons as well as linguistic. Notice he didn't mention how in Wales, Welsh(which is a much more accurate parallel) is fluourishing and it is optional for the final two years there.
Are you suggesting that it is flourishing because it is optional for the final two years?
If not then it seams clear that making Irish optional is not benifical and potentially very damaging.
Might it be that it is flourishing since it was made compulsory in the first place?
The Comparison with England is to show that if something is changed from being Compulsory to being optional it will not flourish(as has been suggested) but most likely see a devastating collapse.Also he's living in typical gaelgoir dreamland if he thinks people doing ordinary level("retard level" would be more appropriate) Irish is having any positive effect on people speaking the language.
I did ordinary level.
It can and will, if done properly, promote the speaking of Irish, Do you think people if tought properly who do ordinary level cannot learn a Language? I would like to see some evidence for this as I did ordinary level and am also learning Irish now.People who want to keep it compulsory should hold their hands up and admit they are simply feared that making it optional at leaving cert is the beginning of a slippery slope and nothing to do with practical considerations.
The Practical considerations are that people cannot be expected to learn a language in Large numbers simply for the love of it. The evidence dosent support it. What practicable considerations are there that you think are being ignored?It is so ridiculous, as if you learn anything important at retard level in the final 2 years of a 14 year course. Anyone who does higher would still choose to do it if it were optional.
Please stop referring to Ordinary level as 'Retard' level, it is quite ofencive.
That has been shown not to be the case, the British worked on the same notion and the numbers learning languages there collapsed, Show me evidence to back up your claim.
The point is that dropping Compulsion dose not promote a love of and flourishing of learning a language like The British claimed and FG are claiming, Show me an example where it has.
Of course changing the last two years alone will not have a major effect, that is why I posted a link to CnaG's overall policy on Irish education.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Here is an analysis of that proposal by the Former President of Conradh na Gaeilge, Maolsheachlainn Ó Caollaí,
He explains why it would be an act of cultural and national vandalism to dismiss the Irish language from the core curriculum for the Leaving Cert.
He also shows how the dropping of compulsion for language learning in England had disastrous results.
If we make it optional, then people will not want to learn it;
So better to force people to learn it, because that is really going to improve things.
That argument doesn't compute
Compulsory at primary, should be totally optional at second levelSo What do you think, Should Irish be made optional?0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »+1 There's also a substantial financial interest in maintaining compulsory Irish and the obligations imposed by the official langauges act.
More unsupported allegations of self serving Cyclopath?
It would be great if you could provide some evidence, It just starts becoming ad hominum after a while.0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »If we make it optional, then people will not want to learn it;
So better to force people to learn it, because that is really going to improve things.
That argument doesn't compute
Compulsory at primary, should be totally optional at second level
Despite the fact that it has been shown not to work? Why would you choose the poorer method?0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Are you suggesting that it is flourishing because it is optional for the final two years?
If not then it seams clear that making Irish optional is not benifical and potentially very damaging.
Might it be that it is flourishing since it was made compulsory in the first place?
The Comparison with England is to show that if something is changed from being Compulsory to being optional it will not flourish(as has been suggested) but most likely see a devastating collapse.
It would get rid of resentment toward the language for being compulsory. How could it being optional for the final two years be a devestating collapse? Even if everyone chose not to do it they would still have 12 years of learning Irish.I did ordinary level.
It can and will, if done properly, promote the speaking of Irish, Do you think people if tought properly who do ordinary level cannot learn a Language? I would like to see some evidence for this as I did ordinary level and am also learning Irish now.
You'd still be doing it if it was optional for the final two years. IF it was taught properly for 12 years what difference would it make if it were optional for the final 2?
Why can't you accept that there should be a personal choice for the subjects that you study to get into university or the workplace?The Practical considerations are that people cannot be expected to learn a language in Large numbers simply for the love of it. The evidence dosent support it. What practicable considerations are there that you think are being ignored?
The evidence is that most people sitting junior cert irish could easily pass leaving cert irish if they were given the wrong paper. I'm sorry if there's no study done to verify this but the dogs on the street know its true. That means you learn f*ck all in the final two years of ordinary level IrishPlease stop referring to Ordinary level as 'Retard' level, it is quite ofencive.
That has been shown not to be the case, the British worked on the same notion and the numbers learning languages there collapsed, Show me evidence to back up your claim.
The point is that dropping Compulsion dose not promote a love of and flourishing of learning a language like The British claimed and FG are claiming, Show me an example where it has.'
Okay what should I call it? Perhaps "Artificially simple so everyone will study it" level?
I don't care if it doesn't promote a love or flourishment. HAving it compulsory doesn't promote a love or flourishment. People should have a choice for their final secondary studies.Of course changing the last two years alone will not have a major effect, that is why I posted a link to CnaG's overall policy on Irish education.
Then why bother having it compulsory?0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Despite the fact that it has been shown not to work? Why would you choose the poorer method?
Because the "poorer" method is the fairer method.
It's only the "poorer" method if your sole aim is to increase the amount of Irish speakers. That's not the objective of education, nor should it be.
If your aim to produce better rounded students who potentially enjoy schooling and can benefit from their education, then the "fairer" method is the better method0 -
Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »It would get rid of resentment toward the language for being compulsory. How could it being optional for the final two years be a devestating collapse? Even if everyone chose not to do it they would still have 12 years of learning Irish.
In the same way that in the British Case it was a devastating collapse. Did you read the article? It makes the point of the domino effect throughout the education system.You'd still be doing it if it was optional for the final two years. IF it was taught properly for 12 years what difference would it make if it were optional for the final 2?
See above, Why should it be made optional for the final two years? I can point out the disadvantages, where are the advantages?Why can't you accept that there should be a personal choice for the subjects that you study to get into university or the workplace?
Choice? Why should I accept it, There is more than one compulsory subject lest we forget. What are the benefits of making Irish optional, I have shown you the potential downsides.The evidence is that most people sitting junior cert irish could easily pass leaving cert irish if they were given the wrong paper. I'm sorry if there's no study done to verify this but the dogs on the street know its true. That means you learn f*ck all in the final two years of ordinary level Irish
What? I would like to see that evidence.
And yes you don't learn much in Ordinary level Irish for the LC, Again see the link for reforming Irish in the education system, I am not arguing for the status quo, I am arguing that making Irish optional is not the solution to the problem of Poor return on teaching Irish in schools.Okay what should I call it? Perhaps "Artificially simple so everyone will study it" level?
I think ordinary level will do nicely.I don't care if it doesn't promote a love or flourishment. HAving it compulsory doesn't promote a love or flourishment. People should have a choice for their final secondary studies.
Well most people do, The majority want Irish to be promoted, I am arguing that making it optional is not the way to do that.
Do you think English and maths should also be optional? Or dose peoples right to choose only apply selectivly?Then why bother having it compulsory?
Why bother teach it at all if your only going to do a half assed job?0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »Because the "poorer" method is the fairer method.
It's only the "poorer" method if your sole aim is to increase the amount of Irish speakers. That's not the objective of education, nor should it be.
If your aim to produce better rounded students who potentially enjoy schooling and can benefit from their education, then the "fairer" method is the better method
The objective of education is to impart knowledge and more importantly new ways of thinking, I think Teaching languages, Irish included comes under that heading, When you also realize that the majority want Irish to be preserved and promoted you can see where the two come together.
Fairer in who's opinion? Again is that applied across the board of just selectively?0 -
Irish should be in the grouping of second languages required for uni courses. So pupils would have to have a pass in English + 1 other language (be it French, German, Irish etc.). Take up should still be good, as people will see a benefit to it (access to Uni) and those that don't want to do it, no longer have to.
Removing state compulsion on non practical things is always good. Welsh is a good example, not compulsary, but thriving (relative to the morose state of Irish).
Getting rid of silly state translations would also be good.The Practical considerations are that people cannot be expected to learn a language in Large numbers simply for the love of it. The evidence dosent support it. What practicable considerations are there that you think are being ignored?
On this, what reason should people be learning Irish for then? It is solely taught as a link to our cultural past (whether it is or not is a different argument), on a purely practical consideration level, dropping it and wiping it out, would save shedloads of money. (Virtually) Everyone who knows Irish, knows English as well, what do they really need Irish for.0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »Fairer in who's opinion? Again is that applied across the board of just selectively?
I thought it would be fairly obvious to you, but fairer in the opinion of those who prove that when the subject is not compulsory -> uptake plummets.
As selective as your study shows.
You yourself said it is the 'poorer' method.
What conclusion do you deduce from that?
I agree with that, and nothing to stop Irish being involved in that process, if chosen by the pupil - i.e. optionalThe objective of education is to impart knowledge and more importantly new ways of thinking, I think Teaching languages, Irish included comes under that heading,When you also realize that the majority want Irish to be preserved and promoted you can see where the two come together.
How did you come to that realization?
You claim that the majority want Irish to be preserved and promoted, yet you yourself directly stated that when optional, uptake plummets.
Can you not see how you are directly contradicting yourself?0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »Why bother teach it at all if your only going to do a half assed job?
What is the goal of teaching Irish? The goal should not be "to pass an exam", and if that's the case, then spending an extra 2 years, on top of 12 years, shouldn't be making that much of a difference.
For Chemistry, Physics, Economics etc. you start to go in depth into those tangents of their subject matter.
For Irish the last two years is purely to pass the LC exam, there really isn't that much depth to it at all (bar a few simple stories and poems, that would be taught in primary school if done through English).0 -
how can irish ever progress when we lack a common and official standardization to begin with?0
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deise go deo wrote: »Not the greatest example, Welsh is compulsory to 16.
Is that not what the thread is about, making Irish compulsary to 16 (JC)? If Welsh thrives in that environment, so should Irish.0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »I thought it would be fairly obvious to you, but fairer in the opinion of those who prove that when the subject is not compulsory -> uptake plummets.
Not when you realise there are a hundred and one other factors, the points race and the fact that English is a higher status language to name a few.As selective as your study shows.
You yourself said it is the 'poorer' method.
What conclusion do you deduce from that?
Dont know what you are getting at here?I agree with that, and nothing to stop Irish being involved in that process, if chosen by the pupil - i.e. optional
Why must it be optional?How did you come to that realization?
You claim that the majority want Irish to be preserved and promoted, yet you yourself directly stated that when optional, uptake plummets.
Can you not see how you are directly contradicting yourself?
No, Think about it, Do most people want their children to learn a second language? Yes
When learning a second language is made optional in England, figures collapse
No contradiction, Simple if you think about it.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »In the same way that in the British Case it was a devastating collapse. Did you read the article? It makes the point of the domino effect throughout the education system.
How could there be a devestating collapse? Hardly anyone speaks it on a daily basis. There's nothing to collapse.See above, Why should it be made optional for the final two years? I can point out the disadvantages, where are the advantages?
So people can spend the classtime on subjects they want/need to study. So the resentment is taken away, so the people who control the language programme are forced to reform it. If they knew compulsory status was to be phased out in 5 years they'd have to do somethingChoice? Why should I accept it, There is more than one compulsory subject lest we forget. What are the benefits of making Irish optional, I have shown you the potential downsides.
As aboveWhat? I would like to see that evidence.
And yes you don't learn much in Ordinary level Irish for the LC, Again see the link for reforming Irish in the education system, I am not arguing for the status quo, I am arguing that making Irish optional is not the solution to the problem of Poor return on teaching Irish in schools.
I told you I don't have a study but are you denying the majority of people sitting junior cert Irish could pass leaving cert ordinary?Well most people do, The majority want Irish to be promoted, I am arguing that making it optional is not the way to do that.
That is not a personal choice and you know itDo you think English and maths should also be optional? Or dose peoples right to choose only apply selectivly?
For leaving cert they shoudl be optional, yes. Haven't seen English and Maths bow out to a devestating collapse in the UK have you?0 -
As far as I can see, the requirement for a second language is still there, which makes my suggestion above (including Irish in with French/German etc.) making more sense.
The UK dropped the second language requirement completley. On this point, what have been the negative effects of this, why was it bad? Presumably the pupils had to do another subject, so is the UK now ahead of us in technical ability, what did pupils do instead?0 -
Is that not what the thread is about, making Irish compulsary to 16 (JC)? If Welsh thrives in that environment, so should Irish.
Not when you realize that Welsh dident start from being Compulsory to LC(Or equivlant)
It was never dropped, It received the enhancement of being made compulsory till 16, enhancing its status. Not Being dropped to Optional Reducing its status. Thats the point of the thread, Making a language optional dosent make that language thrive, The opposite infact. That is what the evidence points to.0 -
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It needs reform first. The curriculum is woefull, the teaching methods are woefull. I would love to see Irish survive but it will only through love and it wont through compulsion in its current form.
there is zero point in continuing its compulsory nature if its going to continue being taught in its current way.
I have spent hundreds on learning Irish as an adult and gained far more knowledge of the language in a few weeks in Gaelcultur than 14 years in school. And i feel the benefit of it every day.
Some people do not think its valuable, and thats fair enough. I would like ot see massive reform and if that doesnt work in improving standards over a few years then the removal of its comulsory nature after the junior cert0
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