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Roundabout lanes (response from the RSA!)

  • 13-08-2010 10:05am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,390 ✭✭✭


    I was having a discussion on here a few days ago about what lane to take when using a roundabout. I ended up e-mailing the RSA to clarify, as the rules of the road only give a very simplistic illustration of a four entry/exit roundabout. I'm posting the response I received here rather than in the original thread, as I'm afraid we totally dragged that one off-topic from the OP's question! :o But I'm sure the mods can merge if appropriate.

    Anyways. Here's my e-mail and the response that I received.

    Me:
    I have a query about roundabouts and would greatly appreciate your assistance.

    I'm looking at the information provided here: http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

    Taken from that page:


    "Making a left turn
    • Signal left and approach in the left-hand lane.
    • Keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
    Going straight ahead:
    • Approach in the left-hand lane but do not signal yet.
    • Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
    • You may follow the course shown in the illustration by the broken red line in situations where:
    Taking any later exits
    • Signal right and approach in the right-hand lane.
    • Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout.
    • Check your mirrors, signal left and proceed to your exit when it is safe to do so.
    • Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want to take."

    That's all fine when you're dealing with a standard four-entrance roundabout with the first exit at 90degrees, second exit at 180degrees, and third exit at 270degrees.

    My question is, how do you deal with a roundabout with an irregular shape or an irregular number of entrances/exits?

    The way I was taught was using the "12 o clock" rule, and as far as I can see, this fits in with the extract above. I.e., irrespective of the number of exits, if I'm taking a turn at 180degrees or less I stay in the left hand lane, and if I'm taking a turn at an angle of over 180degrees I signal right and stay in the right hand lane.

    However, I know of a lot of people who base their approach on the number of exits. If they're taking the first or second exit they use the left hand lane; if they're taking the third or subsequent exits they use the right hand lane.

    So, say if there was a roundabout with three exits at less than 180degrees from the entrance that I'm coming from and I'm taking the third exit. In my view, I should treat it as "making a left turn" (above.) I would stay in the left lane and indicate left once I'd passed the second exit. However, others would argue that, as it's the third exit, you should approach in the right lane and use the right lane of the roundabout - even though, technically, you're turning left.

    Similarly, say if a roundabout had only three entrances/exits with equal space between them - i.e. when I'm coming onto the roundabout, the first exit is at 120degrees and the second is at 240degrees. If I want to take the second exit, I think that I should indicate right and use the right hand lane; others would argue that it is the second exit and you should therefore use the left hand lane.

    I'd really appreciate a definitive answer on this!

    Thanks and kind regards,

    **name**
    Driving Tester Supervisor (RSA):

    Dear **name**,

    While it is impossible to give a definitive rule on position to be taken at Multi Exit Roundabouts due to their actual layout, size and amount of traffic lanes if any, however as a general rule if taking any Exit between the 8.00am to 1.00pm positions, motorists should approach in the Left Hand Lane, Road Position or as dictated by Road Markings.
    If taking any Exit from the 1.pm to 5.pm position motorists should approach in the Right Hand Lane or Position.

    Your are correct on your understanding of the procedures to be adopted at Roundabouts in your email.

    Your colleagues are not correct in their understanding that they base their approach on the number of exits only and not take into account the layout of the Exits at the Roundabouts.

    The above guidelines are for reference only’.

    I hope this is of help.

    Kind regards,
    **name**
    Road Safety Authority

    He has hyperlinked to something there at 1pm and 5pm - I'm assuming illustrations? - the links are blocked on the network I'm on at the moment though so I can't see.

    Anyways, TLDR; the 12 o clock rule is correct, go by that rather than by the number of exits on the roundabout. And yes I know that the majority of drivers already know this, but there are quite a few out there that don't so hopefully this'll help clarify the issue for some of them. :)

    (I have way too much time on my hands ... :o)


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,399 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    They are not genuine hyperlinks, the email is assuming that the '.pm', is a url and translating them as such :)

    Interesting response and the one that makes most sense imo. Of course, I'm sure there will be some that disagree but that's life :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,390 ✭✭✭The Big Red Button


    r3nu4l wrote: »
    They are not genuine hyperlinks, the email is assuming that the '.pm', is a url and translating them as such :)

    I'm not good with IT! :o If I can get them on my home computer I'll stick them up here tonight.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,523 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    While it is impossible to give a definitive rule on position to be taken at Multi Exit Roundabouts due to their actual layout, size and amount of traffic lanes if any
    :rolleyes: Why can't they simply make rules

    what about between 5 and 8 too :D

    aprraoch to roundabout changed so :) Though I'll have to print that out and stick it to the window so when the GF gives out to me for it I can point at that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭GrumPy


    I'm not good with IT! :o If I can get them on my home computer I'll stick them up here tonight.

    They are not links. Clicking them on any computer will result in nothingness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Interesting clarification; cheers for that. Its contrary to what I was thought when learning but that was 10 years ago so it may well have changed since; a lot has! For instance I was always thought to indicate right at roundabouts until your exit is next, but apparently thats not being thought anymore...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭voxpop


    djimi wrote: »
    For instance I was always thought to indicate right at roundabouts until your exit is next, but apparently thats not being thought anymore...

    No harm.


    I tend to indicate right if the exit is past 12 o'clock and indicate left for the exit Im taking not matter what exit


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,857 ✭✭✭langdang


    djimi wrote: »
    Interesting clarification; cheers for that. Its contrary to what I was thought when learning but that was 10 years ago so it may well have changed since; a lot has! For instance I was always thought to indicate right at roundabouts until your exit is next, but apparently thats not being thought anymore...
    Name and shame the instructor please, they are still at it in Limerick. It's at least 10 since I learned to drive and I don't recall any "indicate right even if you're not going beyond 12 o'clock" instruction.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Viper_JB


    RSA wrote:
    While it is impossible to give a definitive rule on position to be taken at Multi Exit Roundabouts due to their actual layout, size and amount of traffic lanes if any, however as a general rule if taking any Exit between the 8.00am to 1.00pm positions, motorists should approach in the Left Hand Lane, Road Position or as dictated by Road Markings.
    If taking any Exit from the 1.pm to 5.pm position motorists should approach in the Right Hand Lane or Position.

    Not all that reassuring, I would have thought there would have been very definite rules about this...it's not like we have no large multi exit round abouts here :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    langdang wrote: »
    Name and shame the instructor please, they are still at it in Limerick. It's at least 10 since I learned to drive and I don't recall any "indicate right even if you're not going beyond 12 o'clock" instruction.

    Im not going to name and shame as it was the accepted way to take a roundabout at that time. It was a case of at a roundabout indicate left if taking the first exit, or right for 2nd and subsequent until you have passed the exit before the one you are taking. Still shoud be if you ask me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,857 ✭✭✭langdang


    djimi wrote: »
    Im not going to name and shame as it was the accepted way to take a roundabout at that time.
    My instructor was ahead of his time so.
    djimi wrote: »
    Still shoud be if you ask me.
    It makes no sense on a multi-lane roundabout - it only makes people to the right of you think you are going to sail around the whole roundabout in the left lane.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    langdang wrote: »
    My instructor was ahead of his time so.

    Must have been! Either that or he didnt know the rules of the road...
    langdang wrote: »
    It makes no sense on a multi-lane roundabout - it only makes people to the right of you think you are going to sail around the whole roundabout in the left lane.

    Well at least if everyone indicated properly there would be no anymosity about where people are going. Its quite simple; indicate left and youre taking the next exit, indicate right and your continuing around to at least one more exit. I thought that was the way everyone drove up to a couple of years ago but maybe Im mistaken...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,968 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    voxpop wrote: »
    I tend to indicate right if the exit is past 12 o'clock and indicate left for the exit Im taking not matter what exit

    Surely if you indicate left when you're going on to a roundabout it's presumed you're taking the first exit off?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    Viper_JB wrote: »
    Not all that reassuring, I would have thought there would have been very definite rules about this...it's not like we have no large multi exit round abouts here :confused:
    Too many different scenarios to cover properly I'm afraid. Which would be fine if all irregular roundabouts road markings/signage :rolleyes:.

    My pet peeve is that the rotr does not make sense for a very common type of roundabout. Where you have two exits only, left and straight ahead, the right entrance lane is effectively wasted (except for u-turns) unless the council has the sense to put down road markings (or motorists break the rules).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,857 ✭✭✭langdang


    I'm outta here, almost half the posts here already show some sort of basic comprehension or communication fail (no, not aimed at you djimi)

    Poster A - it was red
    Poster B - I agree, it was a lovely shade of blue
    Poster C - But if it was apples, it couldn't have been oranges?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭testicle


    If the second exit was at 180 degrees as per your email, it'd be the one you're currently on!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    testicle wrote: »
    If the second exit was at 180 degrees as per your email, it'd be the one you're currently on!

    180 degrees would be straight ahead. 360 would be the one you are currently on! ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,857 ✭✭✭langdang


    Get out while you still can djimi!!! It's sinking fast!;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭tobsey


    The response from the RSA is the way I deal with roundabouts. I always indicate right if the exit I'm taking is after 180 degrees and also be in the right lane, as this is what I was told. Also in your test the tester will say "Go right at the roundabout, second exit". If I'm going straight on or anything to the left then keep left entering the roundabout. If you drive this way you are much less likely to have to cut across someone, or have someone cut across you.

    My other general rule is don't hit other cars. It's worked so far.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭testicle


    djimi wrote: »
    180 degrees would be straight ahead. 360 would be the one you are currently on! ;)

    Get your compass out. North is always up, unless you're actually using it as to navigate. 0/360 is straight ahead. 90 is to the right, and 270 is to the left. I ignored 90 & 270 in the OP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭voxpop


    Surely if you indicate left when you're going on to a roundabout it's presumed you're taking the first exit off?

    indicate left before the exit you want - not indicate left heading onto the roundabout unless taking the first exit. Alot of ppl seem to not indicate at all if going straight trough for example - where as I would indicate before that exit and obviously after the previous exit

    Didnt think it was that unclear


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    testicle wrote: »
    Get your compass out. North is always up, unless you're actually using it as to navigate. 0/360 is straight ahead. 90 is to the right, and 270 is to the left. I ignored 90 & 270 in the OP.

    Whats it got to do with a compass? In terms of a roundabout 90 degrees is left, 180 is straight, 270 is right and 360 is full circle (ie where you started).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,523 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    testicle wrote: »
    Get your compass out. North is always up, unless you're actually using it as to navigate. 0/360 is straight ahead. 90 is to the right, and 270 is to the left. I ignored 90 & 270 in the OP.

    north and compass north are different though so that wouldn't work either ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭BlackWizard


    testicle wrote: »
    Get your compass out. North is always up, unless you're actually using it as to navigate. 0/360 is straight ahead. 90 is to the right, and 270 is to the left. I ignored 90 & 270 in the OP.

    The degrees refernced are degrees from your point on the roundabout. So 90 degrees is left and 180 is straight ahead. Think of your position on the circle as "North".

    .....................90
    .....................|
    my car ..... 0 -... - 180
    .....................|
    ...................270


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,968 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    voxpop wrote: »
    indicate left before the exit you want - not indicate left heading onto the roundabout unless taking the first exit. Alot of ppl seem to not indicate at all if going straight trough for example - where as I would indicate before that exit and obviously after the previous exit

    Didnt think it was that unclear

    Fair enough so! I thought you meant you'd just slap on the left indicators when you got to the roundabout no matter what exit you took, up until 180degrees.

    No harm done


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭robbie99


    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,157 ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    Enough talk about degrees and angles; we all get whats being said!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,865 ✭✭✭Buffman


    Exit between the 8.00am to 1.00pm positions, motorists should approach in the Left Hand Lane, Road Position or as dictated by Road Markings.
    If taking any Exit from the 1.pm to 5.pm position motorists should approach in the Right Hand Lane or Position.

    What if you use the 24 hour clock like me? Is it 08.00 to 13.00 or 20.00 to 01.00?:D What's am or pm got to do with it?

    Seriously though, looks like you just got a pretty generic response from somebody.

    FYI, if you move to a 'smart' meter electricity plan, you CAN'T move back to a non-smart plan.

    You don't have to take a 'smart' meter if you don't want one, opt-out is available.

    Buy drinks in 3L or bigger plastic bottles or glass bottles or cartons to avoid the DRS fee.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,097 ✭✭✭johndaman66


    testicle wrote: »
    Get your compass out. North is always up, unless you're actually using it as to navigate. 0/360 is straight ahead. 90 is to the right, and 270 is to the left. I ignored 90 & 270 in the OP.

    ????

    I think such comments are only further confusing an issue which, lets face it on boards.ie or even moreso on the actual roads appears to already be beyond the comprehension of many people.

    I do believe that from reading the response from the RSA that it is at odds with the ROTR book or at least the latest publication I read which was not too terribly long ago. I never seen any reference to 1pm or 5pm or any other times for that matter in the ROTR book. When learning to drive I was thought in terms of first, second, third and subsequent exits with absolutely no reference made to degress or 1pm to 5pm etc. Was also learned that these rules should be ignored when there is road markings/ signage to the contrary and said road markings/ signage should then be obeyed and the rules/ road signage/ markings should be ignored in the presence of Garda signals to the contrary.

    Furthemore its pretty worrying that the response seems to lack any sort of decisiveness or indeed clarity. Its alarming the number of people who cannot comfortably steer a shopping trolley around a supermarket. I'd wonder if they have the capability to judge 180 degree and more or 1pm to 5pm. It would probably be subjective enough to many a lot of the time never mind those who would be a wee bit challenged at making these judgement or indeed are not familiar with the road they are on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,390 ✭✭✭The Big Red Button


    Buffman wrote: »
    What if you use the 24 hour clock like me? Is it 08.00 to 13.00 or 20.00 to 01.00? What's am or pm got to do with it?

    Do you also hold the steering wheel at 13:50? ;)
    Buffman wrote: »
    Seriously though, looks like you just got a pretty generic response from somebody.

    It wasn't very long, but I wouldn't call it generic - the point that he is making is absolutely clear. And he did specifically say that my understanding, as outlined in my e-mail, was correct. I mean, what more do you want? If you're still unsure after reading his response, you can of course follow it up with the RSA yourself. Here are the contact details:

    LoCall: 1890 50 60 80
    Tel: 096-25000
    Email: info@rsa.ie

    Be sure to let us know how you get on.
    I do believe that from reading the response from the RSA authority that it is at odds with the ROTR book or at least the latest publication I read which was not too terribly long ago. I never seen any reference to 1pm or 5pm or any other times for that matter in the ROTR book. When learning to drive I was thought in terms of first, second, third and subsequent exits with absolutely no reference made to degress or 1pm to 5pm etc.

    OK. See my extract from the ROTR in the first post? It's really, really simple.
    If you are turning left, you stay in the left lane.
    If you are going straight, you stay in the left lane.
    If you are turning right, you use the right lane.

    Now, personally, I see no mention of rules for first, second, third or subsequent exits.

    And yet people still argue this. Which is why others often use the face of a clock (with twelve o clock being straight ahead) to try to explain the rule. I tried explaining it in terms of degrees (with the approaching road at zero degrees) to try to make it a bit clearer, but apparently that doesn't work either.

    If you're finding it difficult, just forget about clocks and angles. It's just basic directions. Left and right.

    Look at the rules in the first post. Imagine you had never been taught any differently, and were looking at the rules for the very first time. How would you interpret them? It does not mention anything about exit numbers.

    Please explain to me exactly what it is that you find to be at odds with the ROTR book.
    Was also learned that these rules should be ignored when there is road markings/ signage to the contrary and said road markings/ signage should then be obeyed and the rules/ road signage/ markings should be ignored in the presence of Garda signals to the contrary.

    Of course. Nobody is arguing otherwise.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,097 ✭✭✭johndaman66


    OK. See my extract from the ROTR in the first post? It's really, really simple.
    If you are turning left, you stay in the left lane.
    If you are going straight, you stay in the left lane.
    If you are turning right, you use the right lane.

    Now, personally, I see no mention of rules for first, second, third or subsequent exits.

    And yet people still argue this. Which is why others often use the face of a clock (with twelve o clock being straight ahead) to try to explain the rule. I tried explaining it in terms of degrees (with the approaching road at zero degrees) to try to make it a bit clearer, but apparently that doesn't work either.

    If you're finding it difficult, just forget about clocks and angles. It's just basic directions. Left and right.

    Look at the rules in the first post. Imagine you had never been taught any differently, and were looking at the rules for the very first time. How would you interpret them? It does not mention anything about exit numbers.

    Please explain to me exactly what it is that you find to be at odds with the ROTR book.


    OK chatterpillar, I have absolutely no trouble grasping the rules as posted above by you and as you received from the RSA but my point is that they are at odds with the ROTR I learned initially. As I say reference was made to first, second, third and subsequent exits in the ROTR book I learned from. I had a look around the house for the book but I sincerely cannot find it. I will have a look for it later on again and if I find I will post the relevant wording from it word for word. I am just looking at the ROTR online as I am writing this post and it would in actual fact seem to qualify your post and the instructions (albeit partly) as received by you from RSA. As such I hold my hands up in defeat and apologise as the current wording has changed but as I say I learned somewhat differently from my ROTR book back in the day and will post the wording from the book if I do come on it (not that it is relevant now)...just for the sake of proving I'm not lying if you like!

    Would you not agree through that the rules as received by you from RSA are somewhat open to interpretation. You will find that peoples opinion of whats 1pm will invaribly conflict with others at time, whether it be lack of sense of direction or others bending that rule that bit to suit at times. Those with a better sense of direction will I'm sure have difficulty pinpointing 12 o' clock on an unfamiliar round about at times I'm sure.

    It does sort of beg the question driver training and refresher courses should be made compulsary in light of such ongoing rule changes.


    Of course. Nobody is arguing otherwise.

    I wasn't arguing either chatterpillar, just stating as completely as possible the rules as I knew them


  • Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭sailordog13


    While I understand the principle of the RSA's reply to OP, everything balances on the assumption that you know relatively the angle (O clock position) of the exit you wish to take, ie. are familiar with layout. I have on numerous occasions been in unfamiliar territory, on middle or right hand lanes, and had the round about sign obscured by a van or lorry, leading me to be in wrong lanes, and sometimes having to circle around the roundabout to re align myself.

    On the RSA video
    http://vimeo.com/8553732
    It states that road markings override any convention/regular practice for that particular roundabout.
    Again, when traffic is bumper to bumper, and you are not actively looking for road markings, you will all too easily find yourself in the wrong lane again.

    So to sum up, every roundabout is different - every man for himself.

    Don't get me started on 3 lane roundabouts !!!
    .
    I guess my gripe is about the poor signage in this country.
    I think I'll stick to walking.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 300 ✭✭thethedev


    If in doubt get into the right hand lane and go around again :P

    I was always thought that the first car on the roundabout had right of way no matter what lane they were in ????
    I'm not sure on this so I only give way, never take it :O

    EDIT Sorry Old thread, meant to post in the new one


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