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Roundabout - who's at fault?

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  • 07-08-2010 1:19am
    #1
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭


    I had a situation on roundabout today. Nothing happen, but could have finished with a little crash.
    I was approaching the roundabout on double carriageway. As I wanted to turn right on roundabout, I took right lane. Lady who was behind me for a while approached roundabout on left lane (so I thought she was going straight or left).
    Anyway I went through roundabout, and after I passed last exit before the one I wanted to leave roundabout, I signalled left, and started turning left (I was still in the inner lane, so I had to cross through outer lane). This exit from roundobout is to a small street, so there's only one lane. Before doing so I checked in my mirror, but didn't see anyone. When started turning left, I realised, that the lady (earlier mentioned) was just there taking the same exit as me. She went through all roundabout on the outer lane to turn right on it, and at the moment, she must have been in my blind spot.
    Luckily I realised she was there, so I could avoid the crash.

    Anyway - If the crash would happen - who's fault would it be?
    Her - because she shouldn't drive on the outer lane of roundabout while turning right on it?
    Or my - because I stared changing lane on the roundabout, and someone (she) was on this lane already?

    What do yous guys think?


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    #2
    justshane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭justshane


    If you started in the right lane to take the last exit on the roundabout you where in the right, no hassle.


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    #3
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    she was at fault


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    #4
    patrickc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,883 ✭✭✭patrickc


    totally the lady


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    #5
    Barr
    Registered Users Posts: 7,000 ✭✭✭Barr


    Absurdum wrote: »
    she was at fault


    Have to disagree with this; the greater onus of care is always on the person changing lanes.

    I reckon the Insurance would have settled 50/50 as there would be fault on both sides


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    #6
    ShiresV2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭ShiresV2


    CiniO wrote: »
    I had a situation on roundabout today. Nothing happen, but could have finished with a little crash.
    I was approaching the roundabout on double carriageway. As I wanted to turn right on roundabout, I took right lane. Lady who was behind me for a while approached roundabout on left lane (so I thought she was going straight or left).
    Anyway I went through roundabout, and after I passed last exit before the one I wanted to leave roundabout, I signalled left, and started turning left (I was still in the inner lane, so I had to cross through outer lane). This exit from roundobout is to a small street, so there's only one lane. Before doing so I checked in my mirror, but didn't see anyone. When started turning left, I realised, that the lady (earlier mentioned) was just there taking the same exit as me. She went through all roundabout on the outer lane to turn right on it, and at the moment, she must have been in my blind spot.
    Luckily I realised she was there, so I could avoid the crash.

    Anyway - If the crash would happen - who's fault would it be?
    Her - because she shouldn't drive on the outer lane of roundabout while turning right on it?
    Or my - because I stared changing lane on the roundabout, and someone (she) was on this lane already?

    What do yous guys think?

    I don't know what the courts and insurance companies would say.

    But, I believe that there is almost always a level of shared responsibility to crashes. Crashes are the confluence of a big set of unfavorable factors, they don't occur just because one person alone makes a bad decision.

    Incidentally I had one somebody cut me up at a roundabout this afternoon, similar circumstances as you describe, checked blind spot and someone was about to barge though.


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    #7
    seensensee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 386 ✭✭seensensee


    The thing is that one really cannot start edging onto the left hand lane on the roundabout while another car is occupying the road space that you are trying shift onto, if you collide with another car because you chose to shift lanes... think about it ?
    Meanwhile although blocked from making the turn you are free to continue circling the roundabout and having a second attempt at it but careful... next time there could be a learner on a moped who obstructs your exit, what are you going to do? surely not to shift lanes and cause a crash? because if you do then you are most certainly in the wrong :eek:.


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    #8
    filthymcnasty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 644 ✭✭✭filthymcnasty


    below is from rules of the road website. you were right as you followed ROTR but rules of the road are not clear at describing rules on the roundabout especially if the roundabout is two lanes (and most are). Woman driver was in the wrong approach lane but how would this be proved if there was a crash?




    j&r_roundabouts_leaving-by-later-exit.jpg


    Taking any later exits

    Signal right and approach in the right-hand lane.
    Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout.
    Check your mirrors, signal left and proceed to your exit when it is safe to do so.
    Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want to take.


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    #9
    Vertakill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Vertakill


    Barr wrote: »
    Have to disagree with this; the greater onus of care is always on the person changing lanes.

    I reckon the Insurance would have settled 50/50 as there would be fault on both sides

    I find that VERY hard to believe.

    The woman misused the roundabout. The root of the problem lies with her.
    If she entered the roundabout in the left lane to take the 3rd exit, she's at fault - there's no debating it. The only debate would be whether the OP could prove she entered in the left lane and if he had any witnesses.

    What you're saying is basically, you can do whatever you want (speed, drift, reverse, you name it) around the roundabout and then when some poor shmuck goes to exit whilst switching lanes and hits you... he's at fault - despite the fact that you were doing all sorts of illegal sh1t up to that point.

    I'm sorry but that's complete crap.

    The OP's insurance company would fight tooth and nail for a 100% liability on the other cars part if they heard this story.


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    #10
    Barr
    Registered Users Posts: 7,000 ✭✭✭Barr


    Vertakill wrote: »
    I find that VERY hard to believe.

    The woman misused the roundabout. The root of the problem lies with her.
    If she entered the roundabout in the left lane to take the 3rd exit, she's at fault - there's no debating it. The only debate would be whether the OP could prove she entered in the left lane and if he had any witnesses.

    What you're saying is basically, you can do whatever you want (speed, drift, reverse, you name it) around the roundabout and then when some poor shmuck goes to exit whilst switching lanes and hits you... he's at fault - despite the fact that you were doing all sorts of illegal sh1t up to that point.

    I'm sorry but that's complete crap.

    The OP's insurance company would fight tooth and nail for a 100% liability on the other cars part if they heard this story.

    Afraid its the reality of the courts system, the o/p would have the weaker case if it went in front of a judge.


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    #11
    Vertakill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Vertakill


    Barr wrote: »
    Afraid its the reality of the courts system, the o/p would have the weaker case if it went in front of a judge.

    Again, I find that incredibly hard to believe.
    But I'm completely open to you explaining how a judge would see this in the woman's favour, however.


    The way I see it, the woman would first have to explain how she entered and exited the roundabout and the judge would know straight away that she made a mistake.

    In most situations, the OP would struggle to see the woman's car if she was 1 car length behind due to your blind spot.
    With the angle you're turning and the fact she's a little bit behind you, she's going to be traveling permanently in your blind spot.

    Again, I'm open for correction but I can't see how this would go against the OP.


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    #12
    FearDark
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,425 ✭✭✭FearDark


    Before I even opened this thread my answer to the OP's question was "the woman".


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    #13
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,787 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    Vertakill wrote: »
    I find that VERY hard to believe.

    The woman misused the roundabout. The root of the problem lies with her.
    If she entered the roundabout in the left lane to take the 3rd exit, she's at fault - there's no debating it. The only debate would be whether the OP could prove she entered in the left lane and if he had any witnesses.

    The RoR advice on roundabouts is just that: advice on good driving practice. AFAIK there is no law that says a driver must not go around the roundabout in the left lane (unless signage/markings say otherwise) but there is traffic law that says you must not change lanes without ensuring it is clear to do so. That would put the OP at fault if a collision had been caused.

    Vertakill wrote: »
    What you're saying is basically, you can do whatever you want (speed, drift, reverse, you name it) around the roundabout and then when some poor shmuck goes to exit whilst switching lanes and hits you... he's at fault - despite the fact that you were doing all sorts of illegal sh1t up to that point.

    I'm sorry but that's complete crap.
    No one is saying that. If you're driving like in your examples then you would most likely be at fault for careless/dangerous driving or not being in control, not the guy who crossed lanes. However even in that case if the poor shmuck also committed an offence by crossing lanes without ensuring it was clear then he has to share some of the blame.
    Vertakill wrote: »
    The OP's insurance company would fight tooth and nail for a 100% liability on the other cars part if they heard this story.
    See above.


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    #14
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    there is no doubt here, the OP was entirely correct.


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    #15
    maggot12345
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭maggot12345


    she was in the wrong as she was in the wrong lane--lots of people on roundabouts do this as they are not able to drive on a roundabout. Not to mention the fact that they don't indicate either. Isn't there another rule also that says always give way to traffic on yout right?? She should have let the car indicating off the roundabout off.


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    #16
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,787 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    maggot12345 wrote: »
    she was in the wrong as she was in the wrong lane--lots of people on roundabouts do this as they are not able to drive on a roundabout. Not to mention the fact that they don't indicate either.

    We don't know she was in the wrong lane, we have no knowledge of the signage/road markings. If the markings showed left lane as left-turn or straight ahead only then yes she would be in the wrong lane. However, despite that the onus remains 100% on the driver changing lanes to make sure the way is clear for him to do so. Thankfully the OP was attentive enough to check properly and avoid a collision.

    maggot12345 wrote: »
    Isn't there another rule also that says always give way to traffic on yout right?? She should have let the car indicating off the roundabout off.
    Yield to traffic approaching you from your right? Yes, that would apply if one of the drivers was entering the roundabout and the other driver was already on it. It does not mean a driver is entitled to change lanes regardless of anyone to his left and it certainly doesn't mean the other car is obligated to yield to him. Also, indicators are only to indicate your intention to change direction they don't give you any rights, unfortunately many drivers seem to think otherwise.


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    #17
    Berty
    Registered Users Posts: 26,149 ✭✭✭✭Berty


    On the basis on the information provided by the OP then the OP was in the right and the woman misused the roundabout by using the outer orbital lane to dangerously manouveur to the exit she wanted.


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    #18
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    I wouldn't call it inner and outer, it confuses things.
    Its offside and nearside, calling it inner or outer might confuse which lane you were in.
    Someone might think by inner you meant the nearside (lefthand of two lanes), where I assume you meant the offside (overtaking).

    If you were in the offside lane then you were in the right, I'm not sure how a court would look at it, but doing that (if that's what she did is wrong) I can't see how a court would look for 50/50 if say you did all you could do to avoid being hit without endangering other road users, but i'd rather not find out.


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    #19
    Berty
    Registered Users Posts: 26,149 ✭✭✭✭Berty


    Merch wrote: »
    I wouldn't call it inner and outer, it confuses things.
    Its offside and nearside, calling it inner or outer might confuse which lane you were in.
    Someone might think by inner you meant the nearside (lefthand of two lanes), where I assume you meant the offside (overtaking).

    If you were in the offside lane then you were in the right, I'm not sure how a court would look at it, but doing that (if that's what she did is wrong) I can't see how a court would look for 50/50 if say you did all you could do to avoid being hit without endangering other road users, but i'd rather not find out.

    Hang on. I used to design and build roundabouts(not by myself :P), directed from the NRA, for a large contractor in this country and they ARE called:

    Inner orbital and Outer orbital lanes.

    It is easiest to call them that because that IS what they are called. If you were bringing a matter like this to court and used whatever description you felt made you happiest it would only serve to confuse people.


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    #20
    rubberdiddies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 717 ✭✭✭rubberdiddies


    Surely the rules of the road are "rules" and not "advice", as a previous poster said. Can someone clarify this?

    The incident the OP describes has happened to me on many occasions. I put this down to bad driving and general lack of cop on in Ireland on how to use a roundabout but I would have always assumed the OP was in the right.

    I notice a lot of large trucks/lorries automatically take the lefthand lane when going for the 3rd exit, presumably cos they feel the turn is too tight otherwise. This in my opinion is extremely dangerous.


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    #21
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    Berty wrote: »
    Hang on. I used to design and build roundabouts(not by myself :P), directed from the NRA, for a large contractor in this country and they ARE called:

    Inner orbital and Outer orbital lanes.

    It is easiest to call them that because that IS what they are called. If you were bringing a matter like this to court and used whatever description you felt made you happiest it would only serve to confuse people.

    Inner and outer orbital lanes

    I think thats too much, the left lane is the nearside lane and the overtaking lane is the offside lane simple.
    I have to say I never, ever heard anyone calling them that or seen it written down anywhere, can you provide some additional information?


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    #22
    Berty
    Registered Users Posts: 26,149 ✭✭✭✭Berty


    Merch wrote: »
    I have to say I never, ever heard anyone calling them that or seen it written down anywhere, can you provide some additional information?

    This is the best I can get you right now as I dont work in that industry any more so wouldn't know where to start tbh.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout

    It refers to inner and outer and the fact you "orbit" the roundabout that is where the reference comes from.


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    #23
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    Berty wrote: »
    Hang on. I used to design and build roundabouts(not by myself :P), directed from the NRA, for a large contractor in this country and they ARE called:

    Inner orbital and Outer orbital lanes.

    It is easiest to call them that because that IS what they are called. If you were bringing a matter like this to court and used whatever description you felt made you happiest it would only serve to confuse people.


    A quick google might at least provide some indication, there are definitions for nearside and offside but none for what you describe, just because a major contractor calls them anything mean much to me, nor does that you feel you have to qualifiy what you are saying by saying you design roads.
    Both the RSA the NRA and the UK highway agency refers to nearside and offside but not to orbital lanes, orbital lanes and you may have been confused normally refers to roads that circle (to some extent) somewhere.
    I'm open to being proved wrong, so if you can provide a link to this directive please do so.


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    #24
    guil
    Registered Users Posts: 10,493 ✭✭✭✭guil


    rubberdiddies wrote: »
    Surely the rules of the road are "rules" and not "advice", as a previous poster said. Can someone clarify this?

    The incident the OP describes has happened to me on many occasions. I put this down to bad driving and general lack of cop on in Ireland on how to use a roundabout but I would have always assumed the OP was in the right.

    I notice a lot of large trucks/lorries automatically take the lefthand lane when going for the 3rd exit, presumably cos they feel the turn is too tight otherwise. This in my opinion is extremely dangerous.
    in an artic there would be a massive blind spot on the passenger side goin round a roundabout, imagine the carnage if the op was in an artic and someone drove up the left


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    #25
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    Berty wrote: »
    This is the best I can get you right now as I dont work in that industry any more so wouldn't know where to start tbh.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout

    It refers to inner and outer and the fact you "orbit" the roundabout that is where the reference comes from.

    I dont like to shoot you down but it appears as if there is no reference to orbiting in even that wiki link, I think you're mistaken and that the idea that they are called orbit lanes is based on thin evidence, I will stick to the better known nearside and offside lanes.
    After you said you worked in the industry I thought you were going to provide some absolute proof


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    #26
    Waterford26
    Registered Users Posts: 257 ✭✭Waterford26


    irish new drivers(and 90% with full licence too :D ) definetely needs more lessons on road..than situations like this won't hapend. Another 10% have to use horns :D


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    #27
    Optimalprimerib
    Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭Optimalprimerib


    this drives me beyond crazy, you try to do the right thing by being in the right lane and some idiot blocks you by dinkying about all the way around in the wrong lane.

    If there was an accident i think you would be more at fault as you didnt take the appropriate precautions crossing the lanes but tbh it is like running into the back of someone, you pay for what could also be the other parties error


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    #28
    Berty
    Registered Users Posts: 26,149 ✭✭✭✭Berty


    Merch wrote: »
    After you said you worked in the industry I thought you were going to provide some absolute proof

    Im sitting in my sitting room at home and you expect me to somehow find links to NRA / Contractor Reports and/or guidelines by the councils / NDP / ESAI at the drop of a hat simply because YOU request them.

    I don't think so. I cannot access the LIT database from my computer so cannot find tutors descriptions of roundabout/turning circle construction patterns.

    Nor did I bring home a lot of files and paperwork when I left the industry in 2006 just for the hell of it just in case Im challenged on the internet.

    "Thin Evidence" indeed.

    More like a difference of opinion. You can call it Nearside and offside all you like. Im simply suggesting that in the greater scheme of things they are technically called Inner and Outer Orbital lanes. I may even go so far as calling a pile of stones aggregate and you may challenge me and say they are simply stones.

    I love the Internet! :rolleyes:


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    #29
    Rick Deckard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Rick Deckard


    back on topic, a couple of years ago, i was on the pinnock hill roundabout in the nearside outer orbit lane, when a very similar situation happened, only in my case the two cars collided.. i helped as best i could, and they both wanted me to go witness as they both thought they were in the right..

    in court i described what i'd seen, and the two drivers agreed with my account.

    The judges decision was 50/50. The driver in my lane didn't see the driver in the offside inner orbits indication to change lanes, and the driver in the making the lane change didn't see the car he was about to drive into, due to not checking his blind spot.


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    #30
    The Big Red Button
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,390 ✭✭✭The Big Red Button


    peatcass wrote: »
    back on topic, a couple of years ago, i was on the pinnock hill roundabout in the nearside outer orbit lane, when a very similar situation happened, only in my case the two cars collided.. i helped as best i could, and they both wanted me to go witness as they both thought they were in the right..

    in court i described what i'd seen, and the two drivers agreed with my account.

    The judges decision was 50/50. The driver in my lane didn't see the driver in the offside inner orbits indication to change lanes, and the driver in the making the lane change didn't see the car he was about to drive into, due to not checking his blind spot.

    But just to clarify, in this case, was the car in the outer lane taking the third exit? (I'm assuming a standard roundabout with four entrances/exits, I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that particular roundabout though!)


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    #31
    Slidey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭Slidey


    Everyday, without fail, several morons aproach the N4/N17 roundabout in Sligo from the N17 side with the intention of turning left.

    However unlike normal people they approach in the right hand land coming to the roundabout and take the first exit.

    I am patient, I can wait, but some day I am going to see one of them get plastered by someone who uses the left lane approaching the rounadabout and goes into the roundabout with the intention using the second exit


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