Striking essential services

thebaz · 20-01-2010 12:44pm #1

Just wondering will the air traffic controllers strike today, impact on the aid to Haiti. I just think that people in essential , and I assume well paid positions , bringing the country to a standstill, is disgusting - fair enough if it is very low paid, high risk job - but I'm sure the traffic controllers are well paid and secure in their jobs

orourkeda · 20-01-2010 12:51pm

It's the only way to get what you want. Talking around a table in some hotel is a waste of time energy and money.

Cookie_Monster · 20-01-2010 12:53pm

Won't somebody think of the children aid!

ITs only 4 hours what little aid flights are coming from here will be delayed.
more importantly is why some bunch of union hacks think they can bring air transport in this country to halt because they want more money to do less work! :mad:

RoadKillTs · 20-01-2010 12:56pm

I think its a disgrace that these muppets can bring the country to a halt over a few lads been suspended. It reflects very badly on us a country. How the hell are we supposed to attract foreign investment when we have crap like this going on?

orourkeda · 20-01-2010 12:57pm

RoadKillTs wrote: »

I think its a disgrace that these muppets can bring the country to a halt over a few lads been suspended. It reflects very badly on us a country. How the hell are we supposed to attract foreign investment when we have crap like this going on?

Foreign Investment?

Dont you mean International Monetary Fund?

Our country is f*cked beyond f*ckedness and you are worried about foreign investment and looking bad. It's about time irish people grew a pair of testicles and stood up for themselves. We wouldnt be in this mess otherwise

RoadKillTs · 20-01-2010 12:59pm

Dont you mean International Monetary Fund?

No. I mean potential business leaders which maybe considering moving / expanding to Ireland.

orourkeda · 20-01-2010 1:04pm

RoadKillTs wrote: »

No. I mean potential business leaders which maybe considering moving / expanding to Ireland.

Why would they come here? Rip off Ireland and all that. The ones that are here are tripping up over each other to get out.

RoadKillTs · 20-01-2010 1:05pm

Why would they come here? Rip off Ireland and all that. The ones that are here are tripping up over each other to get out.

I agree. The point is that things like this are making the matter worse.

DublinWriter · 20-01-2010 1:09pm

thebaz wrote: »

and I assume well paid positions

You assume correctly - average salary is €130,000 with 30.5% of that paid into their pension fund without them having to make any contributions.

Buford T Justice · 20-01-2010 1:12pm

Vankers

orourkeda · 20-01-2010 1:13pm

RoadKillTs wrote: »

I agree. The point is that things like this are making the matter worse.

It is to an extent. How do the rates of pay for Irish Air Traffic controllers compare to their international counterparts though?

Cookie_Monster · 20-01-2010 1:14pm

DublinWriter wrote: »

You assume correctly - average salary is €130,000 with 30.5% of that paid into their pension fund without them having to make any contributions.

that is some pension!

thebaz · 20-01-2010 4:40pm

DublinWriter wrote: »

You assume correctly - average salary is €130,000 with 30.5% of that paid into their pension fund without them having to make any contributions.

thats just pure greed - if they dont like the job -- leave -- I'm sure the job is pretty automated these days - thers certainly many thousand less fortunate who would do it at half the salary and eager to learn the duties

starbelgrade · 20-01-2010 4:43pm

Striking essential services? What are you on about, the pubs are still open.

Gone West · 20-01-2010 4:47pm

thebaz wrote: »

thats just pure greed - if they dont like the job -- leave -- I'm sure the job is pretty automated these days - thers certainly many thousand less fortunate who would do it at half the salary and eager to learn the duties

Lol, nice.
Clearly you don't have a clue about this job. Its incredibly difficult, and stressful. Pensions are good because people tend to retire early from these jobs due to extreme stress etc.
And it doesn't matter if there are people who would do it, what matters is people who CAN do the job. You can't just simplify it to "shure shtick the thousands on the dole lines into those jobs, learn-em-up and bobs yer uncle"

People are unemployed because they are not an average or below average person. To be an ATC you do need to be on the top of your game.

But yeah I do agree, ****in unions and striking is a constant pain in the hole in Ireland.

Kradock · 20-01-2010 4:49pm

Stressful , isn't it like playing a video game all day?

starbelgrade · 20-01-2010 4:54pm

el judìo wrote: »

Lol, nice.
Clearly you don't have a clue about this job. Its incredibly difficult, and stressful. Pensions are good because people tend to retire early from these jobs due to extreme stress etc.
And it doesn't matter if there are people who would do it, what matters is people who CAN do the job. You can't just simplify it to "shure shtick the thousands on the dole lines into those jobs, learn-em-up and bobs yer uncle"

People are unemployed because they are not an average or below average person. To be an ATC you do need to be on the top of your game.

But yeah I do agree, ****in unions and striking is a constant pain in the hole in Ireland.

Anytime stikes, pay reductions etc are mentioned, someone always pulls out the "my job is stressful / difficult" card. Most professional jobs are stressful, almost all are difficult at times & to keep them, you usually do have to be "on top of your game". This is no reason however for not discussing these issues. You choose a profession, you know the downsides - that's part & parcel of the job.

It's just as bad as when the frontline services make the false claim that they do very "dangerous" jobs. Yes, they are potentially dangerous, but the mostly are less dangerous than many other jobs.

PCPhoto · 20-01-2010 5:12pm

my understanding is that they went on strike due to 15 members being SUSPENDED WITH FULL PAY for not following new procedures/guidelines introduced by management.

I'm on their side to be fair - the amount of businesses/management types that decide its ok to change things around without consulting the actual people it effects. (I dont know if there was previous consultations in this case)

the problem is that its all about the "bottom line" we have accountants in charge or advising top management without checking with the ground staff if they are willing to accept proposed changes and also ...if the proposed changes are implemented - what are the possible problems which could arise (its the ordinary worker who will know instead of management/accountant)

I dont know any Air Traffic Controllers and even the mention of the name reminds me of Hot Shots (maybe part deux) - with the guy with massive glasses in front of a screen.

just for laughs...check this out

starbelgrade · 20-01-2010 5:15pm

As I understand it, they are seeking a 6% pay increase in an industry that has 25% less business than it did last year. In my book, computer says no.

thebaz · 20-01-2010 5:15pm

el judìo wrote: »

Lol, nice.
Clearly you don't have a clue about this job. Its incredibly difficult, and stressful. .

I know it used to be incredibly stressfull , but in todays digital age, I would expect it to be nearly completly automated , unlike the scenes in "Airplane" - but your right i know little about their duties - just a pain in my arse being ransom held by a tiny few

The Pontiac · 20-01-2010 5:52pm

orourkeda wrote: »

It's the only way to get what you want. Talking around a table in some hotel is a waste of time energy and money.

That's the way it's resolved most of the time though. What they're doing now is an absolute waste of time (passenger's time) and money (passenger's money with extra flights). They're on strike because they didn't receive their 6% salary increase, agreed in 2007 under the Bertie Ahern government, when the country was in good shape. Bertie had never foreseen a time when possibly the country might see a thing called a 'recession' and these insane pay agreements might not make great financial sense. They're not even being asked to take a pay cut for god sake. They're not living in the real world. It's just pure greed and nothing else.

20-01-2010 6:15pm

el judìo wrote: »

Lol, nice.
Clearly you don't have a clue about this job. Its incredibly difficult, and stressful. Pensions are good because people tend to retire early from these jobs due to extreme stress etc.
And it doesn't matter if there are people who would do it, what matters is people who CAN do the job. You can't just simplify it to "shure shtick the thousands on the dole lines into those jobs, learn-em-up and bobs yer uncle"

People are unemployed because they are not an average or below average person. To be an ATC you do need to be on the top of your game.

But yeah I do agree, ****in unions and striking is a constant pain in the hole in Ireland.

Excellent post. Agree 100% with everything you've just said.

Too many barstool politicians in this thread, and methinks this is a throwback to the anti-public sector bollocks from a few months ago.

My brain hurts even trying to imagine what colour the sky is in the world in which some of you reside, so i'll just quote one for now....

starbelgrade wrote: »

You choose a profession, you know the downsides - that's part & parcel of the job.

Conversely, you choose the profession, you know the benefits - that's part & parcel of the job. People begrudging them their wages and pension should bear that in mind. LOL @ whoever tried to claim that you could just pluck a handful of unemployed brickies and labourers off the dole queue and stick replace the ATCs.

starbelgrade wrote: »

It's just as bad as when the frontline services make the false claim that they do very "dangerous" jobs. Yes, they are potentially dangerous, but the mostly are less dangerous than many other jobs.

You, Sir, are talking out of your hole and you have no idea wtf you are talking about.

JuliusCaesar · 20-01-2010 6:33pm

Isn't AH great? Just the place to come to listen to people waffling on about stuff they haven't a clue about! Let's attract a lot of foreign investment by getting rid of the right to strike - in fact, all Labour Law! Let them set up factories here which make people work 60+hours per week, no sick pay, 2 weeks Annual Leave, no maternity leave, fire people at will.... oh, yes, if only we could get all those tossers out of school and have them working from the age of, oh shall we say, 9? Then we could really compete with China and India. And while we're at it, we could get rid of social housing and unemployment benefit, and then we can be an even lower tax nation.
Must be something to do with all the tabloid readers here.... :rolleyes:

PS Putting Michael O'Leary in charge of health, and make it a profit making enterprise by shooing out the poor, the chronically ill, and the elderly to live with their relatives, is an excellent idea. I do wonder how the PDs ever disbanded? :rolleyes:

donkey balls · 20-01-2010 6:40pm

RoadKillTs wrote: »

I think its a disgrace that these muppets can bring the country to a halt over a few lads been suspended. It reflects very badly on us a country. How the hell are we supposed to attract foreign investment when we have crap like this going on?

november 2002 france ATC closed down for 24hrs(strike) disrupting a **** load of flights no acft allowed enter/overfly the french airspace.
then we had 3M a multi national company closing in france what did the employees do hold the plant mgr hostage.

Bandit12 · 20-01-2010 6:44pm

Fair play to them. They have every right to strike after the way their members where treated.

The Pontiac · 20-01-2010 6:47pm

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Isn't AH great? Just the place to come to listen to people waffling on about stuff they haven't a clue about! Let's attract a lot of foreign investment by getting rid of the right to strike - in fact, all Labour Law! Let them set up factories here which make people work 60+hours per week, no sick pay, 2 weeks Annual Leave, no maternity leave, fire people at will.... oh, yes, if only we could get all those tossers out of school and have them working from the age of, oh shall we say, 9? Then we could really compete with China and India. And while we're at it, we could get rid of social housing and unemployment benefit, and then we can be an even lower tax nation.
Must be something to do with all the tabloid readers here.... :rolleyes:

PS Putting Michael O'Leary in charge of health, and make it a profit making enterprise by shooing out the poor, the chronically ill, and the elderly to live with their relatives, is an excellent idea. I do wonder how the PDs ever disbanded? :rolleyes:

What the hell are you on about? 60 hours a week, China and India... So you're saying a union's stance is always right? I backed the Coca Cola workers and the SIPTU here on AH and the Irish Ferries dispute a few years ago. It doens't mean I'll side with the trade union everytime though. I'll take each case on its merits. They're striking because they didn't receive a 6% pay increase when half the country is after taking huge pay cuts. They're not living in the real world.

dresden8 · 20-01-2010 6:53pm

http://irishatcfactfile.wordpress.com/

Some of the other side of the story in case anybody is interested in anything other than the front page of the Daily Mail, sorry, Irish Daily Mail.

Not that I'd expect most are interested in anything other than ranting about stuff they don't know about.

Computer games? Grow the fnck up.

donkey balls · 20-01-2010 7:00pm

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Isn't AH great? Just the place to come to listen to people waffling on about stuff they haven't a clue about! Let's attract a lot of foreign investment by getting rid of the right to strike - in fact, all Labour Law! Let them set up factories here which make people work 60+hours per week, no sick pay, 2 weeks Annual Leave, no maternity leave, fire people at will.... oh, yes, if only we could get all those tossers out of school and have them working from the age of, oh shall we say, 9? Then we could really compete with China and India. And while we're at it, we could get rid of social housing and unemployment benefit, and then we can be an even lower tax nation.
Must be something to do with all the tabloid readers here.... :rolleyes:

PS Putting Michael O'Leary in charge of health, and make it a profit making enterprise by shooing out the poor, the chronically ill, and the elderly to live with their relatives, is an excellent idea. I do wonder how the PDs ever disbanded? :rolleyes:

+1 also the 6% increase was to be paid 18mths ago and YES the IAA is still making a profit and the majoarity of there profits does not come from planes landing in ireland but transititng Irish airspace.
as for o leary how many people know that he makes both the pilots&cabin crew pay for there own uniforms&id badges,and to get a job flying for o leary you have to pay him 30k to train on his planes.

thebaz · 20-01-2010 7:05pm

if they were working in low paid dangerous conditions I would have sympathy - but earning a 100 k + - sorry - sure the heads of the banks and the goverment and every other over paid execs that have taken pay cuts, may as well go on strike - our banana republic -

if i had a flight booked today i would then be angry

dresden8 · 20-01-2010 7:05pm

Mr Brennan said he wanted to tackle the pension deficit over the next three to five years. "This is not going to go away," he added.

Mr Brennan said he would be willing to pay the pension contribution himself. The authority made a contribution of €96,000 on behalf of Mr Brennan last year as part of a total remuneration of €412,000.

This compared with total pay in 2007 of €350,000. Mr Brennan's basic pay rose last year by 22 per cent to €253,000.

Mr Brennan recently agreed to take a 10 per cent cut in his basic pay. He told The Irish Times that his bonus this year would be about one-third less than the €63,000 he earned last year.

The authority is seeking to defer payment of the latest national wage agreement for two years. Its profits declined by 16.7 per cent last year to €12.2 million despite an 8 per cent rise in turnover to €166.7 million. The volume of air traffic movement was flat in 2008.

I wonder how ex-Transport Minister's brother Eamonn Brennan qualified for the job.

But the poor chap, he was going to get one-third less of his €63,000 bonus on top of his pay which he volunteered to give up 10% after his increase of 22%.

All these pay increases and bonuses while he was running the company into the ground apparently.

Would you take a pay cut for this scumbag?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0509/1224246190751.html

starbelgrade · 20-01-2010 7:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You, Sir, are talking out of your hole and you have no idea wtf you are talking about.

I do know what I'm talking about - there are far more many deaths per year in the fishing, farming & construction industries than there are in the frontline services & even more injuries in manufacturing than there are in the guards, hospital services & fire services combined.

If youy want to accuse me of talking through my hole, have something to back it up.

donkey balls · 20-01-2010 7:17pm

and here is the rest of the mgmt team jobs for the boys&girls/dail line up
http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=104&n=159

Overheal · 20-01-2010 7:20pm

Kradock wrote: »

Stressful , isn't it like playing a video game all day?

Not to defend Strike Action - but ATC is considered by many studies to be one of the most highly stressful jobs you can get, outside of a warzone.

InKonspikuou2 · 20-01-2010 7:32pm

As a person who flies regularily in and out of this country i say let them strike until the can come to work happy. I don't want some disgruntled unhappy fúck deciding to run amok when my plane is approaching Irish air space.

The Pontiac · 20-01-2010 7:36pm

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

As a person who flies regularily in and out of this country i say let them strike until the can come to work happy. I don't want some disgruntled unhappy fúck deciding to run amok when my plane is approaching Irish air space.

The poor things on €160,000 a year, with 35-hour weeks with frequent half-hour breaks, 46 days' vacation and 137 rest days a year. It boils down to greed and nothing else.

dresden8 · 20-01-2010 7:46pm

<Ollie> wrote: »

The poor things on €160,000 a year, with 35-hour weeks with frequent half-hour breaks, 46 days' vacation and 137 rest days a year. It boils down to greed and nothing else.

"Somebody has better paid job than me" shock.

donkey balls · 20-01-2010 7:51pm

what amazes me is that no one picked up on dresden post #30 about the IAA CEO salary.

dresden8 · 20-01-2010 7:53pm

donkey balls wrote: »

what amazes me is that no one picked up on dresden post #30 about the IAA CEO salary.

We only hate workers these days. Our lords and masters are above reproach.

NTMK · 20-01-2010 8:04pm

First things first ATC is one of the most stressful job in the world. if you f**k up in that job you can end up causing a massive disaster like The Tenerife airport disaster
Its not an automated job they are responsible for for every single plane that comes in to Irish Airspace and it is International Regulation that they take breaks on a regular basis to avoid fatigue

and the reason for the Big salary is because the retire early(Mandatory is 56) because of the pressure of the job considering its half what most experienced pilots salary and they have a mostly automated system and a longer career

The Pontiac · 20-01-2010 8:17pm

NTMK wrote: »

First things first ATC is one of the most stressful job in the world. if you f**k up in that job you can end up causing a massive disaster like The Tenerife airport disaster
Its not an automated job they are responsible for for every single plane that comes in to Irish Airspace and it is International Regulation that they take breaks on a regular basis to avoid fatigue

and the reason for the Big salary is because the retire early(Mandatory is 56) because of the pressure of the job considering its half what most experienced pilots salary and they have a mostly automated system and a longer career

I'm not arguing with any of that..but they're holding the country to ransom for not receiving a 6% pay increase arising out of a farcical wage agreement made during the Ahern era when the country was booming. They retire early alright, but with great pensions. Spoilt pathetic brats the lot of them..

dresden8 · 20-01-2010 8:26pm

<Ollie> wrote: »

I'm not arguing with any of that..but they're holding the country to ransom for not receiving a 6% pay increase arising out of a farcical wage agreement made during the Ahern era when the country was booming. They retire early alright, but with great pensions. Spoilt pathetic brats the lot of them..

"People who have better jobs than me should be punished" shock.

Except management of course. They're so cool.

The Pontiac · 20-01-2010 8:35pm

dresden8 wrote: »

"People who have better jobs than me should be punished" shock.

Except management of course. They're so cool.

Oh dear god, what an immature post. I've backed striking workers in the past that had better paid jobs than mine. lol at your post..

dresden8 · 20-01-2010 8:44pm

<Ollie> wrote: »

Oh dear god, what an immature post. I've backed striking workers in the past that had better paid jobs than mine. lol at your post..

Lol at your support for workers.

Hockney · 20-01-2010 9:20pm

dresden8 wrote: »

We only hate workers these days. Our lords and masters are above reproach.

No, what we hate is people on six figure salaries holding the country to ransom over something as simple as a slight change to work practices.

Since my main issue is with the workers and IMPACT, so I'm going to stick to IMPACT's views on why it's happening (i.e nothing to do with pay or pensions).

You earlier seemed to suggest people's opposition to the strike (or mandatory meeting, or whatever IMPACT are masking this as) was out of jealousy. I know my opposition to it is nothing of the sort.

My understanding is:

1) New technology was introduced, Air Traffic Controllers were asked to take it on board and learn how to operate it.
2) Some ATCs refused, and were then suspended by IAA.
3) IMPACT, as a result of the suspensions, called their 4 hour meeting which all ATCs attended (in solidarity with their fallen comrades) while the planes were in the air, resulting in todays disruptions.

Please correct the above if I'm wrong.

As an engineer I'm absolutely disgusted that people working in such a technical area would purposely cause such mass disruption, over a refusal to learn new technologies.

el judìo wrote: »

To be an ATC you do need to be on the top of your game.

To be on top of your game means keeping yourself up to date with the latest technologies, and constantly bettering yourself so that you're more hire-able and less fire-able (if of course you are fire-able). If you can't or won't do this, you're not up to the job.

I believe it's a very stressful job. I believe ATCs deserve to be paid more than the average worker as a result.

What I don't believe is that it could be nearly as stressful as sitting at home unemployed, feeling like a failure with your wife and kids, awaiting the sheriff to come knocking.

There's a recession on. Go out and do your fvcking jobs, you should be glad to have anything above €200 a week, let alone €115,000 a year.

How ATCs can expect any sympathy from the public they've so wronged, is beyond me.

dresden8 · 20-01-2010 9:31pm

Hockney wrote: »

I believe it's a very stressful job. I believe ATCs deserve to be paid more than the average worker as a result.

Hockney wrote: »

you should be glad to have anything above €200 a week,

Your statements are hugely contradictory. Even in the 1 post. Well done.

I will disregard your statements from now on because you're so obviously full of sh1t.

The Pontiac · 20-01-2010 9:32pm

And the new technology being introduced will apparently make their jobs easier. It's amazing how unrealistic and greedy people have become...

Red Alert · 20-01-2010 9:40pm

They really have some nerve... I don't begrudge some other public servants compared to these guys. I'm still in college: you see lecturers having to do more now than ever both in terms of research and in improving their teaching material- while taking a near 20% pay cut. Then you've these guys who when faced with easier-to-use technology throw their toys out of the pram. Every last one of them deserves to be fired with no dole.

dresden8 · 20-01-2010 9:41pm

<Ollie> wrote: »

And the new technology being introduced will apparently make their jobs easier. It's amazing how unrealistic and greedy people have become...

It's amazing how stupid and unrealistic some people become. It's amazing what one quick google will bring up.

New technology doesn't always bring up efficiencies.

Maybe the instant experts that turn up on each of these threads should check it out. This is what 1 quick google turned up.

http://www.techcentral.ie/article.aspx?id=12346

For the overly opinionated and underly educated the address is

www.google.ie

Remember to tick the "pages from Ireland" button.

I'm trying here people, but I can't do it all myself. You're gonna have to do some of the work.

You really should try educating yourselves before posting.

The Pontiac · 20-01-2010 9:49pm

dresden8 wrote: »

It's amazing what one quick google will bring up.

New technology doesn't always bring up efficiencies.

Maybe the instant experts that turn up on each of these threads should check it out. This is what 1 quick google turned up.

http://www.techcentral.ie/article.aspx?id=12346

For the overly opinionated and underly educated the address is

www.google.ie

Remember to tick the "pages from Ireland" button.

I'm trying here people, but I can't do it all myself. You're gonna have to do some of the work.

You really should try educating yourselves before posting.

lol.

New technology doesn't always bring up efficiencies.

I never said it does, but it does in this instance.

Hockney · 20-01-2010 9:49pm

dresden8 wrote: »

Your statements are hugely contradictory. Even in the 1 post. Well done.

I will disregard your statements from now on because you're so obviously full of sh1t.

Good man. Really addressed the points I made.

You just go and put your fingers back into your ears, since disregarding what's going on around them seems to be something ATCs have been doing impeccably for the last 18 months or so.

The irony....

dresden8 · 20-01-2010 9:52pm

Hockney wrote: »

Good man. Really addressed the points I made.

You just go and put your fingers back into your ears, since disregarding what's going on around them seems to be something ATCs have been doing impeccably for the last 18 months or so.

The irony....

No, seriously, you're still full of sh1t.

Striking essential services

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