Railfreight as Obsolete as Donkey Carts Soon.

Nostradamus · 16-11-2009 8:26pm #1

I know anyone posting this article on IRN would have the text messages flying across from the mainland to the manservants having whoever it was that posted this banned form the board for life, but the fact remians is that this has been coming 'down the road' for years.

People can scream all about CO2 all they want but with green energy road transport the current dot com and already well developed, the days of railfreight, especially in Ireland are all but history except for perhaps heavy ore trains.

Deal with it Tarquin.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8349923.stm

Victor · 16-11-2009 10:10pm

Please don't reference people's origin. Where one is from does no make one right or wrong. I realise it may affect one's perception, but if its wrong for someone from place X to dictate rail policy in place Y, they you should shut up about anything outside Sligo*.

* I presume.

zagmund · 16-11-2009 10:51pm

So just like a normal train except people still get to sit in their own cars. So, trains go from compartments to open plan and back to individual compartments over the course of the last 80 years or so. Progress ? I dunno. You know what would happen, don't you . . . the whole thing would get stuck in some Victorian legal quagmire because the legislation never expected to have to deal with trains without tracks and we'll end up with a tribunal. Which will probably cost more than just building a plain old

In a weird case of something or other I came across this post shortly after I came across this one - http://www.youtube.com/v/F6pUMlPBMQA - check out the section from 05:45 which covers trains like this.

I'm off for a spin in my sun powered electro-car (see 07:00 onwards).

z

antoinolachtnai · 16-11-2009 10:57pm

The big issue with this is the insurance and legal issues, rather than the technical issues. With vehicles travelling so close together, a fault on a car near the front would cause a major pile-up. Or what if the guy on the front turns out to be a really bad driver? Who would pay the bill when it all goes wrong?

It is basically a good idea though.

DWCommuter · 17-11-2009 12:08am

Victor wrote: »

Please don't reference people's origin. Where one is from does no make one right or wrong. I realise it may affect one's perception, but if its wrong for someone from place X to dictate rail policy in place Y, they you should shut up about anything outside Sligo*.

* I presume.

I disagree with you. Can I have an infraction as well. I was thinking of becoming an infraction spotter. I love the colour red.

And back on topic.....

It is blatantly obvious that the only campaigning for the development of railfreight in Ireland (outside of the normal day to day commerce of it) has been online. It is also overwhelmingly obvious that this campaigning was spearheaded by enthusiasts from outside of the country. Therefore I think the OPs remarks are relavent and in no way insulting or misleading to readers.

I await the very sexy red card. Maybe you could put numbers on them.

Zoney · 17-11-2009 12:10am

I've seen presentations before on related research projects. There are useful outputs to them and indeed applications, but I would suggest we won't be seeing such a "follow the leader" type scenario day-to-day on ordinary roads. I don't even think it's the most interesting road-related research out there - active traffic management systems (i.e. computers directing humans who control their vehicles*, rather than computers controlling the vehicles directly) has much more applicability.

And as regards the things technology lets you do - needless to say modern computer systems and automation not only has the potential to make railfreight more viable (even in Ireland) but indeed is actually being used to do just that in other countries. Presumably road freight operations here are making some use of the fancier things you can do with modern back-end computer systems (and indeed linked to vehicles), but with our poor broadband and telecoms infrastructure, maybe not.

*in theory

corktina · 17-11-2009 8:50am

this thread is most odd, are there bits missing?

westtip · 17-11-2009 10:15am

corktina wrote: »

this thread is most odd, are there bits missing?

Yes Corky I was wondering - I cannot see the offence in Nostys OP - I think the character he asked to deal with the idea may actually be some mythical trainspotter from the "home counties" who has since 1952 managed to note down the number of every loco on the network of both the UK and Ireland and stood at the end of many a platform photographing every type 27 diesel (no such type exists I make it up as an example before the trainspotters descend) pulling out of Crewe on a Tuesday afternoon .... Each to their own Nosty each to their own, if it made them happy leave them be, they are indeed a passing breed, as these railway children of the 1950s and indeed 60s move towards their greying years, have to live with the knowledge there are no more little boys in grey flannel shorts busy noting down D-75671 (gotcha) in their battered little black book, getting excited because that loco which usually does the west coast line to Glasgow has this week been shifted to the east coast mainline via York, so this is a first to be spotted on this line - no more dreaming of the flying scotsman, alas tis all gone.

The little boys who would be trainspotters to take their place are too tied up in their computer games........and being taken everywhere by their parents in an oversized 4x4 military vehicle called the family car

Anyway with that piece of BS out the way ....Re the news article Nosty quoted from the BBC in the OP - very interesting - with the Interurbans here it might be something we could see.

You are right though - Freight as it once was is a dead parrot - very dead parrot.

corktina · 17-11-2009 10:23am

ah yes the BBC link makes sense of the posts referring to it which didnt refer to it!

As for the MAINLAND reference, I took that to mean the OP lives on Tory Island and Sligo is the mainland!

westtip · 17-11-2009 2:43pm

corktina wrote: »

ah yes the BBC link makes sense of the posts referring to it which didnt refer to it!

As for the MAINLAND reference, I took that to mean the OP lives on Tory Island and Sligo is the mainland!

I think Nosty was being tongue in cheek re the "Mainland" but he was referring to it in the same way as the gentlefolk of Kingstown refer to the land yonder as the mainland. (sic)

corktina · 17-11-2009 3:49pm

ya I knew that!:rolleyes:

westtip · 17-11-2009 4:00pm

of course you did! I was just conjuring up the gentlefolk of Kingstown who still think of Pearse station as Westland Row, Heuston as kingsbridge station and Connolly as Amiens Street.....Tis all a bygone age like the age of mass movement of goods via railfreight, the returnable half pint bottle, and the clink of milk being delivered in glass bottles at 5.30 am.

I wonder do they still sell grey flannel shorts to all the mums in the home counties every late August these days, and do children still wear caps and carry satchels to school.....

I know where Nosty is coming from with his OP, but not sure it has anything to do with commuting and transport!

RGDATA! · 17-11-2009 4:06pm

i guess someone should have told warren buffett before he spent all that money on those rail networks a few weeks back. i have a feeling it will work out a good investment for him though.

csd · 17-11-2009 4:57pm

Having done my best to filter out the noise of Nosty's axe-grinding, it appears to be an interesting proposal that might help save some fuel on car and truck journeys. Howver, I can't quite make the leap to "death of railfreight" here, but maybe I'm a bit slow and someone can summarise the arguments for me.

As for who's actually arguing for rail freight in Ireland, you'll have to add the CEO of Foynes Port, the Irish Exporters Association, and Waterford Port to the list of Nigels and Tarquins too. It's not all online, and it's not all British-based.

/csd

Cionád · 17-11-2009 5:14pm

RGDATA! wrote: »

i guess someone should have told warren buffett before he spent all that money on those rail networks a few weeks back. i have a feeling it will work out a good investment for him though.

+1

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8363565.stm

KC61 · 17-11-2009 6:45pm

csd wrote: »

Having done my best to filter out the noise of Nosty's axe-grinding, it appears to be an interesting proposal that might help save some fuel on car and truck journeys. Howver, I can't quite make the leap to "death of railfreight" here, but maybe I'm a bit slow and someone can summarise the arguments for me.

As for who's actually arguing for rail freight in Ireland, you'll have to add the CEO of Foynes Port, the Irish Exporters Association, and Waterford Port to the list of Nigels and Tarquins too. It's not all online, and it's not all British-based.

/csd

Along with IWT!

Judgement Day · 17-11-2009 6:54pm

westtip wrote: »

Yes Corky I was wondering - I cannot see the offence in Nostys OP - I think the character he asked to deal with the idea may actually be some mythical trainspotter from the "home counties" who has since 1952 managed to note down the number of every loco on the network of both the UK and Ireland and stood at the end of many a platform photographing every type 27 diesel (no such type exists I make it up as an example before the trainspotters descend) pulling out of Crewe on a Tuesday afternoon .... Each to their own Nosty each to their own, if it made them happy leave them be, they are indeed a passing breed, as these railway children of the 1950s and indeed 60s move towards their greying years, have to live with the knowledge there are no more little boys in grey flannel shorts busy noting down D-75671 (gotcha) in their battered little black book, getting excited because that loco which usually does the west coast line to Glasgow has this week been shifted to the east coast mainline via York, so this is a first to be spotted on this line - no more dreaming of the flying scotsman, alas tis all gone.

The little boys who would be trainspotters to take their place are too tied up in their computer games........and being taken everywhere by their parents in an oversized 4x4 military vehicle called the family car

Anyway with that piece of BS out the way ....Re the news article Nosty quoted from the BBC in the OP - very interesting - with the Interurbans here it might be something we could see.

You are right though - Freight as it once was is a dead parrot - very dead parrot.

Poor old Westtip methinks thou doth protest too much. You're really a closet train spotter aren't you? The class 27 diesel was a very popular British Railways diesel loco and quite a number are now preserved. http://www.flickr.com/photos/31625633@N00/3599736513

What were you doing during your teenage years, pulling the wings off flies, busy being a soccer hooligan or in the National Front?

thebman · 17-11-2009 8:01pm

The technology is there, the faith in technology is not there.

Tell anybody about this and you'll likely get a smart reply comparing it to the M50 electronic toll fiasco.

corktina · 17-11-2009 8:20pm

he says TYPE 27 not CLASS 27 so as the diesel TYPES only go up to 5, he is right and you wrong...sorry!

Judgement Day · 17-11-2009 8:30pm

corktina wrote: »

he says TYPE 27 not CLASS 27 so as the diesel TYPES only go up to 5, he is right and you wrong...sorry!

Only goes to prove my point that Westtip is a closet trainspotter.

Hungerford · 17-11-2009 9:03pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

It is blatantly obvious that the only campaigning for the development of railfreight in Ireland (outside of the normal day to day commerce of it) has been online. It is also overwhelmingly obvious that this campaigning was spearheaded by enthusiasts from outside of the country. Therefore I think the OPs remarks are relavent and in no way insulting or misleading to readers.

I never realised that the Irish Exporters Association were rail enthusiasts from outside the country. How do you discern that?

Nostradamus · 17-11-2009 9:33pm

Victor wrote: »

Please don't reference people's origin. Where one is from does no make one right or wrong. I realise it may affect one's perception, but if its wrong for someone from place X to dictate rail policy in place Y, they you should shut up about anything outside Sligo*.

* I presume.

Blantant censorship. The truth is the truth regardless of if you like if or not. What next, posters claiming that the Vatican is an outside influence in Ireland abortion debate is a racist comment against Italians!

Frankly Victor you well up your own hole on this one. Get over yourself.

Nostradamus · 17-11-2009 9:37pm

Hungerford wrote: »

I never realised that the Irish Exporters Association were rail enthusiasts from outside the country. How do you discern that?

I guess that's why so many of them have huge trucking fleets...:rolleyes:

Listen to me. They have about as much belief in railfreight as they have of an Irish space mission to Mars. Every idea is worth supporting as long as you do not have to do something about it. Foynes Port. That was a ruse by the gob****es who run it to get a 100 million euro ROAD BRIDGE built across the Shannon. There was also the case of that CIE land which the port wanted for expansion...FOR TRUCKs! Of course the trainspotters over on the Mainland were completely out of touch with the subbtle underlying subtext of what the real agenda is.

Here is Foynes Port.

Now you know why it's called the Singapore of the West...

God love them. Maybe Lemon Curd affects the nuro-transmission paths across the brain resulting in chilld-like thinking.

Santa isn't real either. Tally-ho!

corktina · 17-11-2009 10:30pm

Astonishing to think anyone could believe a port that size could sustain its own rail link...what? 20 odd miles long and a rail service to ...well nowhere in particular..... there IS no suitable cargo stream for rail in Ireland with the possible exception of Tara mines.... there is no likelihood of there ever being such a thing in the future.

DWCommuter · 17-11-2009 10:36pm

Hungerford wrote: »

I never realised that the Irish Exporters Association were rail enthusiasts from outside the country. How do you discern that?

Like csd before you, you fast read my post and ignored this bit;

"outside of the normal day to day commerce of it"

Next.:rolleyes:

westtip · 17-11-2009 11:47pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Poor old Westtip methinks thou doth protest too much. You're really a closet train spotter aren't you? The class 27 diesel was a very popular British Railways diesel loco and quite a number are now preserved. http://www.flickr.com/photos/31625633@N00/3599736513

What were you doing during your teenage years, pulling the wings off flies, busy being a soccer hooligan or in the National Front?

JD I always enjoy your response now, would you believe I was in the Anti Nazi league at Uni read humanities and all that and used to do all those marches against the poll tax (never actually rioted old chap just marched along) - mind I did rather fancy a girl with a pin through her nose and lovely green eyes and wore dungarees, (long since gone) so maybe my motivation was all below the belt. Very un pc Know. My bark is worse than my bite, I just no longer see the point in resisting the future, the past is the past.

I am merely a social observer, read my profile on Infrastrucure. Cynical yes, protestor no longer really. Anyway the class 27 did seem to hit me somewhere in the back of the brain as actually being some loco of the past, and actually I do enjoy watching the old puffers going up and down the preserved rail lines they are truly majestic. Train Spotter no, never really organised enough for all that left brain or is it right brain storing of loads of numbers and never really saw the appeal of the end of platform 5 of New Street station or a day trip to Crewe; Although many memories of changing at Crewe in the middle of the night in order to get to Holyhead for my six weeks in a very different Ireland in the 1960s.

Trains are truly wonderful - if there is enough people to use them, Rail Freight is superb for moving 40 foot containers coast to coast in the USA or Australia, but Ireland is simply too small - and the cost of handling goods makes taking them to the Railhead, loading them up then unloading them at the other end very expensive for seemingly short journies. Warren Buffet is probably right about rail freight in the USA but on this small island - it is a very limited audience.

BTW a lot of what I write re the trainspotters is indeed very tongue in cheek as I think you do indeed know.

westtip · 18-11-2009 12:01am

RGDATA! wrote: »

i guess someone should have told warren buffett before he spent all that money on those rail networks a few weeks back. i have a feeling it will work out a good investment for him though.

Maybe so - but read this extract from the bbc news link on this story:

"True, it is not so long since there were too many, too big, railway companies with thousands of miles of uneconomic track, unprofitable passenger operations and over-long pay rolls - there was a time when 2% of the entire population of the United States worked on the railroad.

Deregulation set the industry onto a leaner, but more profitable path (it happened under Jimmy Carter by the way, rather than under Ronald Reagan) and rail companies settled down to making steady, if unspectacular profits moving bulk goods across the vast expanses of North America."

Now find some parallels in this small little country of ours:
miles of uneconomic track, unprofitable passenger operations and over-long pay rolls Err now where does that sound like, I do however like that last bit about over-long pay rolls.

Deregulation set the industry onto a leaner, but more profitable path Has this happened here yet?? Do the managers at IE know how to spell the word profit. Does that matter - they are afterall a public service provider of transport services. Leave the profitable bit of public transport to the coach operators who move people quicker more efficiently and for less cost....err now how does that all add up??

rail companies settled down to making steady, if unspectacular profits moving bulk goods across the vast expanses of North America so have our rail companies operating in a deregulated environment done this? and is the movement of goods from Ballina to Waterford covering "vast expanses" in terms of distance.

So - will Mr. Buffet be buying up rail track in Ireland when we privatise -- err probably not quite the same market circumstances, critical mass of business or huge distances and population to compare with the USA.

Apples and Pears me thinks.

csd · 18-11-2009 1:52am

DWCommuter wrote: »

Like csd before you, you fast read my post and ignored this bit;

"outside of the normal day to day commerce of it"

Next.:rolleyes:

I ignored it because it's irrelevant. You're cutting off the IWT nose to spite the trainspotter face here. It's not the UK enthusiasts who would have to "deal with it" if railfreight in Ireland as we know it died, it's the current and potential future customers of IE. Nigel and Tarquin are irrelevant here.

Look lads, maybe it's time to send the trainspotter hobby horse of yours to the knacker's yard. It's a one-trick pony and it's beginning to get a bit old. It's getting to the stage where someone could write an essay on Malthusian collapse in the post-oil economy and you'd somehow manage to drag Nigel, Tarquin and the lemon curd sandwiches out for another outing. Enough!

Now, back on topic, I'm genuinely interested to hear your analysis as to why this technology spells the end of railfreight as we know it in Ireland. You can't just drop a bombshell like that without some explanation for the slower members of the audience like me.

I'm asking this because railfreight as I know it in Ireland consists of 18-wagon trains block-hired by the forwarders (or Coillte). One driver with one 2,500 (ish) horsepower locomotive pulling 18 40' containers vs 18 drivers in 18 400 (ish) hp tractor-trailers. Even if IE are only half as efficient as the hauliers at doing this, rail still seems to win out. Is it so close that the mooted 20% fuel efficiency gain would really knock out the railway's advantage?

/csd

DWCommuter · 18-11-2009 11:39am

csd wrote: »

Now, back on topic, I'm genuinely interested to hear your analysis as to why this technology spells the end of railfreight as we know it in Ireland. You can't just drop a bombshell like that without some explanation for the slower members of the audience like me.
/csd

You'll have to address that question the the person who claimed that. I didn't.

Interestingly if you google "railfreight Ireland" the results appear to be dominated by a less "business orientated" type. In fact this thread makes it onto the first page of results. That says a lot.

DWCommuter · 18-11-2009 11:46am

csd wrote: »

I ignored it because it's irrelevant. You're cutting off the IWT nose to spite the trainspotter face here. It's not the UK enthusiasts who would have to "deal with it" if railfreight in Ireland as we know it died, it's the current and potential future customers of IE. Nigel and Tarquin are irrelevant here.
/csd

I think you are mixing me up with the OP. I supported the OPs comments in relation to the type of person campaigning for railfreight and I commented on that. The simple point I was making is; Rail Freight campaigners in Ireland tend to be dominated by rail enthusiasts and a large amount of them from the UK. There is no escaping this fact. I then stated that they existed outside of the "normal day to day commerce of it".- By this it should be obvious that Im referring to the various companies still using rail for freight and those who want to. But is it not true that we hear more about the Nigels and Tarquins than we do about Norfolk line and IWT?

Once again a simple google search throws up more trainspotter rubbish than valid economic argument. To a casual observer, its frightening.

corktina · 18-11-2009 1:51pm

csd wrote: »

I ignored it because it's irrelevant. You're cutting off the IWT nose to spite the trainspotter face here. It's not the UK enthusiasts who would have to "deal with it" if railfreight in Ireland as we know it died, it's the current and potential future customers of IE. Nigel and Tarquin are irrelevant here.

Look lads, maybe it's time to send the trainspotter hobby horse of yours to the knacker's yard. It's a one-trick pony and it's beginning to get a bit old. It's getting to the stage where someone could write an essay on Malthusian collapse in the post-oil economy and you'd somehow manage to drag Nigel, Tarquin and the lemon curd sandwiches out for another outing. Enough!

Now, back on topic, I'm genuinely interested to hear your analysis as to why this technology spells the end of railfreight as we know it in Ireland. You can't just drop a bombshell like that without some explanation for the slower members of the audience like me.

I'm asking this because railfreight as I know it in Ireland consists of 18-wagon trains block-hired by the forwarders (or Coillte). One driver with one 2,500 (ish) horsepower locomotive pulling 18 40' containers vs 18 drivers in 18 400 (ish) hp tractor-trailers. Even if IE are only half as efficient as the hauliers at doing this, rail still seems to win out. Is it so close that the mooted 20% fuel efficiency gain would really knock out the railway's advantage?

/csd

I think you forget that the cost base of freight by rail must include some of the cost of the track , signalling etc. (The truck driver pays his road tax(yes no such thing I know:rolleyes:) maintains his truck and claims such expense against his tax and away he goes). If the provider of the track, signalling et al is an inefficent organiisation then the costs attributable to the rail operation will be huge and the 18 trucks pretty soon come out cheaper....

Railfreight as Obsolete as Donkey Carts Soon.

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