Broadband 'rollout' via NBS, when/where?

chillok · 25-09-2009 1:05pm #1

Does such a document/meh exist that we could actually know when we get supplied with broadband via the NBS? Even in terms of counties that are currently being upgraded.

If any information regarding west waterford exists I'd love it.

Sponge Bob · 25-09-2009 1:11pm

Map

http://ve.bizmaps.ie/threeireland/Pages/Public/NBSPublicPage.aspx

Zoom in on Waterford.

If it is Green they claim you are covered which is generally bollox .

If Red no and not soon.

If Orange it is coming by christmas .. which is generally bollox too.

chillok · 25-09-2009 1:14pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Map

http://ve.bizmaps.ie/threeireland/Pages/Public/NBSPublicPage.aspx

Zoom in on Waterford.

If it is Green they claim you are covered which is generally bollox .

If Red no and not soon.

If Orange it is coming by christmas .. which is generally bollox too.

Thanks, yeah, I'm in red alright - I'd say by a matter of metres.

'Planned'. Hurry the **** on

Sponge Bob · 25-09-2009 1:18pm

Matter of metres from what ?? Grey ??

That means you are at the edge of the service area and will most likely get satellite , have they applied to build a mast within 2-3km of you at all ??

chillok · 25-09-2009 1:29pm

Ah damn.

I've gotten mixed advice from various sources regarding future bb availability.

I was told that my phone line is "definitely" going to be enabled for full broadband use, after I was talking to a salesperson who rang <i>someone</i> to check would my exchange be enabled, to which they said yes.

On viewing Eircoms maps on http://www.broadbandatoz.ie/ we are in the: 'The National Broadband Scheme which was recently announced by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is expected to provide service to the following exchange areas currently without a broadband service from eircom or any other broadband provider.' category.

I didn't think that the NBS was supplying cable broadband, just wireless and satellite?

Sponge Bob · 25-09-2009 2:11pm

Is your exchange yellow or green or red in the waterford map on that BB a to z site ?? What dialup speeds do you get now ??

http://www.broadbandatoz.ie/dynamic/image/Waterford.jpg

Yellow means they will do it ( no timescale but most likely before end 2010)

jor el · 25-09-2009 2:42pm

chillok wrote: »

I didn't think that the NBS was supplying cable broadband, just wireless and satellite?

The NBS isn't supplying broadband at all. It's providing a mobile phone network, on which some will be able to get Internet access, with no guarantee of speed, latency or even coverage.

If your exchange is not listed on eircom's AtoZ site, then it's not going to be done. Sales people will say anything, do not pay any attention to them. They mention of your area being in the NBS zone means that eircom are definitely not going to do anything with the exchange.

Your choices are
a) Move
b) Satellite
c) No Internet access

Senna · 26-09-2009 12:07am

Just wondering what happens if your in "non NBS area" but you cant get broadband?
And Eircom have said there is more chance of hell freezing over than my exchange getting BB. I cant get a signal from 3 but i can get the o2 mobile BB.

Walkman · 26-09-2009 10:41am

Senna wrote: »

Just wondering what happens if your in "non NBS area" but you cant get broadband?
And Eircom have said there is more chance of hell freezing over than my exchange getting BB. I cant get a signal from 3 but i can get the o2 mobile BB.

If you can get 3G O2 coverage the department of communications consider you covered so you won't be getting NBS covered (it'll be the same as O2 anyway

rebel.ranter · 28-09-2009 7:53am

Walkman wrote: »

If you can get 3G O2 coverage the department of communications consider you covered so you won't be getting NBS covered (it'll be the same as O2 anyway

Not strictly true. The NBS rollout is not just a "fill in the gaps" exercise. I would be fairly confident in saying that the 3G element of the NBS fills in the gaps left by Eircom not the other mobile operators.
As for speed guarantees on Mobile BB people always forget that fixed operators that offer 1Mb with 40:1 contention ratio only guarantee you 25kbps. Why do people always forget that?
Yes I know that the mobility element has the potential for unpredictable & uncontrolable users per cell but two points on this:
- most who purchase Mobile BB use it as a substitute for fixed BB, therefore making the job of predicting traffic that bit easier for the operator. They can then determine the capacity required for a given area.
- mobile operators have gotten voice traffic management pretty much sorted for the last number of years. In the past they had to deal with exponential growth but got there in the end. I would imagine that the same would be true in the mobile BB area eventually.
Just on the speed of rollout side of things, sometimes those communities that are starved of infastructure like motorways & telecoms services are their own worst enemy. I read an article last week entitled "Dying to get Broadband" where the people of Mullinahone, Tipperary had to go to the local graveyard to get BB (Mobile BB). There was the "poor us" attitude about the article. However I know for a fact that over the years at least two Telecomms operators applied for planning for structures to provide services into Mullinahone, they were vigorously blocked by the locals & now they whinge that they have no ifastructure.
My point is that it is not necessarily NBS/3 fault that rollout is slow or unpredictable there are various mitigating factors that can become determinants in when Mobile BB gets deployed. That coupled together with various planning authorities inability to make a decision slows the whole thing right up. So it is no wonder that the plans shown on the NBS map is inreliable/unpredictable.

Binka · 05-10-2009 3:11pm

I am one of the many who are dependant on the NBS scheme being able to deliver broadband to me of any description.
I have been closely monitoring 2 planning applications made by Hutchinson 3G for masts to supply the broadband.
One of the applications was refused outright and the second has been delayed pending further information. This further information stretches to 3 pages of geophysical studies, archeological reports etc etc. We are talking 6 to 9 months before all of this information is collected and a new decision can be made. Chances are it will be refused (I believe there were 42 objections).
I find it incredible that the NBS can make these claims of enabling rural Ireland when the planning applications are being refused. What kind of joke is this!
Meanwhile I have to wait for possibly nothing.

Sponge Bob · 05-10-2009 3:22pm

There is a big problem generally with masts in rural Ireland and it needs to be tackled systemically .

The right of every citizen to a high quality signal must be made law ( not left to bloody Comreg

) and the obligation to permit sufficient masts to deliver this....irrespective of the stupid objectors ....must follow.

Planning guidelines will need to be amended and then county development plans etc etc .

The 42 objections were probably one old biddy wandering door to door hectoring all her neighbours.

I had a similar issue two years back and ran the luddite at high speed for which they never forgave me . She had a good case on aesthetic grounds and on aesthetic grounds only but she flat refused to let me test the field strength of her microwave oven against the mast ....and I offered believe me

chillok · 09-10-2009 12:31pm

Thanks for the input.

Senna - I'm in a NBS are alright, but probably 200 - 500m from a grey zone. But I am definitely covered.

jor el - Yeah, I think we can be definitely sure that Eircom are not going to touch my exchange. Is cable broadband part of the National Broadband Scheme's plans via 3, or is it just wireless. Satellite is rubbish but I would be glad to have it tbh.

Walkman - Interesting. According to the O2 maps we should be able to get coverage, but in practise we can't get any of them. Tested and failed with all of them.

Sponge Bob - Yeah, I would say were less than 500m from being in the grey. Our exchange is red. I can forget about Eircom, they won't be doing it. We connect between 33.2kbps - 38.xkbps. Actual download speeds of a webpage are more in the region of 4kbps, from viewing the dial up connection box in XP. Yep, 4kbps.

Johnboy1951 · 09-10-2009 4:53pm

I have just been reading here
http://www.three.ie/nbs/faqs.htm

and (in particular) was interested to read this ....

What product will be offered under the NBS?
3 will extend its network to provide mobile wireless broadband services into NBS areas. The mobile wireless broadband service (HSPA), will have a minimum download speed of 1.2mbps, a minimum upload speed of 200kpbs, a maximum contention ratio of 36:1, a latency of 120 milliseconds and a 15gigabit (12 down, 3 up) inclusive monthly download allowance limit.

That reads to me as a guaranteed minimum service. This is even more explicit

* As part of the NBS contract 3 will deliver the following minimum speeds at launch at the edge of cell. Average speeds for customers will be higher.

o Minimum download speed is 1.2Mbps while maximum download speed is 5Mbps
o Minimum upload speed is 200Kbps while maximum upload speed is 1.8Mbps
o Satellite Minimum download speed is 1Mbps
o Satellite upload speed is 128Kbps

Those guarantees do not seem to be what people on this board are reporting ......... or am I misunderstanding something?

If those speeds & allowances were actually delivered it seems that I would have a better and cheaper service than Eircom ADSL (3Mb/s, 30GB cap) simply by having two dongles.

Am I reading this correctly?

Is there any difference in the service supplied by 3 in NBS and non-NBS areas?

.

Sponge Bob · 09-10-2009 5:37pm

ChillOK , you sould like you are on the FAR edge of a red area from the mast which is where one would expect VSAT deployment .

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That reads to me as a guaranteed minimum service. This is even more explicit

That is what it says.

Those guarantees do not seem to be what people on this board are reporting ......... or am I misunderstanding something?

That is what happened , as expected.

Is there any difference in the service supplied by 3 in NBS and non-NBS areas?

Not really , they cannot bend the laws of physics .

rebel.ranter · 09-10-2009 8:37pm

It's the first time I have seen a contention ratio quoted for a 3G network. I would say that what has been written on the NBS website is just written incorrectly. I would say they mean that a 1.2MB/s service will be offered with a 36:1 contention ratio as a minimum.
I don't think they are guaranteeing a minimum throughput.

Johnboy1951 · 10-10-2009 10:17am

Is there any difference in the service supplied by 3 in NBS and non-NBS areas?

Not really , they cannot bend the laws of physics .

I should have made my question a bit clearer .....

is there any difference between the service offered in the NBS and non-NBS areas?
In other words, are these guarantees offered to everyone, not just the NBS customers?

Sponge Bob · 10-10-2009 10:54am

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

is there any difference between the service offered in the NBS and non-NBS areas? In other words, are these guarantees offered to everyone, not just the NBS customers?

In NBS areas ( only) 95% of people are supposed to get those speeds ( minimum) off Three because they live in those areas . Outside NBS areas there is no minimum speed.

The other 5% in NBS areas are supposed to get satellite becuase those speeds cannot be guaranteed for them .

Do you have anything more specific???

Johnboy1951 · 10-10-2009 2:40pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

In NBS areas ( only) 95% of people are supposed to get those speeds ( minimum) off Three because they live in those areas . Outside NBS areas there is no minimum speed.

The other 5% in NBS areas are supposed to get satellite becuase those speeds cannot be guaranteed for them .

Do you have anything more specific???

No. Thanks you for clarifying for me.

I was only concerned if the guarantees were applicable outside the NBS area.

regards.

jor el · 10-10-2009 2:51pm

I don't believe the guarantees are even applicable inside the NBS areas. There is absolutely no way that they can control the number of users in any cell sector, so minimum speed guarantee is a complete joke.

Johnboy1951 · 10-10-2009 3:02pm

jor el wrote: »

I don't believe the guarantees are even applicable inside the NBS areas. There is absolutely no way that they can control the number of users in any cell sector, so minimum speed guarantee is a complete joke.

While they may fail to live up to their guarantee, it does give a user who has a complaint about the service, (what appears to be), a legally binding guarantee and thus the basis for a serious complaint.

Small comfort I know but at least some ....

Regards.

jor el · 10-10-2009 4:13pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Small comfort I know but at least some ....

Regards.

I'm waiting for someone who is using NBS, and not getting the 1.2Mbps min guaranteed speed to take a complaint to Comreg about it. Would like to know the outcome of that. At the moment, with it only starting to go live in (up to now) uncovered areas, it's probably going to be OK, but as time goes by and more customers sign up, there are going to be problems.

Johnboy1951 · 10-10-2009 4:23pm

jor el wrote: »

I'm waiting for someone who is using NBS, and not getting the 1.2Mbps min guaranteed speed to take a complaint to Comreg about it. Would like to know the outcome of that. At the moment, with it only starting to go live in (up to now) uncovered areas, it's probably going to be OK, but as time goes by and more customers sign up, there are going to be problems.

Yes that is the value of the guarantee.
Time will tell I guess ...

yuloni · 10-10-2009 5:20pm

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Sponge Bob · 10-10-2009 5:32pm

Condi wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Some 3G repeaters would work with any 3G signal TBH , they are designed to boost the signal through a wall or window . Looks like a small alarm on the wall . BIG cost dfifference between NBS satellite and Digiweb satellite too.

Can you tell us whether three install a particular one, a Nextivity Windowsill Repeater and at what distance from their mast please .
http://www.nextivityinc.com/consumers/images/demo_h.swf

yuloni · 10-10-2009 5:50pm

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Sponge Bob · 10-10-2009 7:12pm

femtocells and repeaters often really only move problems around rather than solve them .

chillok · 12-10-2009 2:15pm

Thanks for the Satellite review Condi. I will most definitely get it if I exhaust all other avenues!

This is my approx area, heh. Pretty tight alright.

yuloni · 12-10-2009 3:05pm

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clohamon · 21-10-2009 9:01pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

While they may fail to live up to their guarantee, it does give a user who has a complaint about the service, (what appears to be), a legally binding guarantee and thus the basis for a serious complaint.

Small comfort I know but at least some ....

Regards.

The undertakings by 3 should be seen in the context of what happens if they do not meet them. Looking at the NBS terms and conditions...

There is no protocol for conflict resolution regarding the SLA.
The maximum penalty faced by 3 for non-performance is 25% of the monthly fee; measured quarterly and paid 60 days in arrears. That would seem to mean that if you sign up on say April 2nd and your service is unsatisfactory you will get your first €5 rebate at the end of November.
There is no protocol by which to advance your claim for a satellite in the face of persistently substandard mobile service.
You will presumeably remain under contract until the twelve months are up.
There is no mention of a dispute resolution body

I wrote to Comreg and subsequently DCENR with queries about this. The relevant bits are below.

Queries to Comreg

What measurements will be required by the user to establish a deficit in the advertised minimum service levels?

At what stage can the internal resolution procedures with 3 Ireland be deemed to have been exhausted?

Is Comreg the correct body to which to bring an un-reconciled dispute?

What powers does Comreg have?

Within what period can Comreg assure a dispute resolution?

Are there objective criteria by which to decide that a satellite alternative is appropriate?

What are those criteria?

Are there any criteria by which to decide that a satellite alternative is appropriate?

What are those criteria?

Can Comreg require 3 Ireland to provide a satellite alternative, if appropriate?

Within what period can Comreg require 3 Ireland to provide a satellite alternative, if appropriate?

Reply from Comreg

With reference to your letter to John Doherty, Chairperson of ComReg dated 6 July regarding your query as stated above, I wish to inform you that the NBS is an initiative of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (DCENR).

Reply from DCENR

In cases, where the issue remains unresolved the customer can contact the Department. In such cases the Department will take account of all information provided to it by the customer and will carry out separate enquiries and investigations to establish the level of 3's compliance or otherwise with the NBS contract. Where following its investigation, the DCENR establishes that 3 are in breach of the NBS conditions it can request 3 to remedy the situation so as to ensure that the NBS guaranteed service is provided. If the Department's investigation establishes that 3 are compliant with the NBS service obligations, the Department will inform the customer of its conclusions and supporting reasons.

cowboy1981 · 21-10-2009 9:26pm

clohamon wrote: »

There is no protocol for conflict resolution regarding the SLA.

The maximum penalty faced by 3 for non-performance is 25% of the monthly fee; measured quarterly and paid 60 days in arrears. That would seem to mean that if you sign up on say April 2nd and your service is unsatisfactory you will get your first €5 rebate at the end of November.

There is no protocol by which to advance your claim for a satellite in the face of persistently substandard mobile service.

You will presumeably remain under contract until the twelve months are up.

There is no mention of a dispute resolution body

These are serious omissions. However, NBS sufferers must not give up, and must ensure that they continue to escalate their issues to all of the authorities including the Minister Eamon Ryan, ComReg, 3 CEO and Analysis Mason. If everyone does this, the civil servants may eventually cave in - fearful of another Tribunal like Digifone licence, or Smart 3G licence debacles.

If necessary, it may be worthwhile bringing to the attention of the Department of Finance, who should be interested in the squandering of €40M of Irish Taxpayers money, or the EU who will certainly be interested in the misuse of the other €40M of EU taxpayers money.

Johnboy1951 · 21-10-2009 9:39pm

Where following its investigation, the DCENR establishes that 3 are in breach of the NBS conditions it can request 3 to remedy the situation ....

Sounds like they are toothless!

Request!!!!!!!

Fries-With-That · 21-10-2009 9:47pm

Hi Condi,

."............Arrghhh! If I met the plonker (our account manager) in Eircom, oh god forgive me. They are visiting this week to find a broadband capable line which they 'installed' in our house in summer and have charged us three months rent on - even though it isn't there! .............."

If Eircom have charged line rental for 3 months on a line you never had, ring 1901 and ask for a refund or a credit of 75.41, also ask for a refund of the installation charge if you paid one.

If you get no joy from the people on 1901 ask them for the eircom complaints number(this is a phone number outside the 1901 department). They have to give you the number and when you make contact with your complaint have the account details to hand.

Regards,

Fries.

rebel.ranter · 22-10-2009 9:40pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Can you tell us whether three install a particular one, a Nextivity Windowsill Repeater and at what distance from their mast please .
http://www.nextivityinc.com/consumers/images/demo_h.swf

Three (or their partner company) install the nextivity units alright.

rebel.ranter · 22-10-2009 9:50pm

jor el wrote: »

I don't believe the guarantees are even applicable inside the NBS areas. There is absolutely no way that they can control the number of users in any cell sector, so minimum speed guarantee is a complete joke.

Mobile Broadband products are predominantly bought by people to use at a single location despite the mobile capability of the service. This is probably even more true of the NBS sales. Therefore it is probably more predictable than you would think for the operators to calculate demand in a given area, their problem may be in keeping up with deploying additional capacity on a site & backhaul capacity from the site.
You could argue that 3G Smartphone users could wander into the cell affecting the subscriber number sin an area but the level of data download from these users should not be enough to cause major issues in reality.
This is probably more true in a rural area, urban centres probably facilitate mobile users more with locations like cafés, etc.

thebman · 23-10-2009 10:14am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Is your exchange yellow or green or red in the waterford map on that BB a to z site ?? What dialup speeds do you get now ??

http://www.broadbandatoz.ie/dynamic/image/Waterford.jpg

Yellow means they will do it ( no timescale but most likely before end 2010)

lol I never read that as broadband a to z.

My brain always interpreted it as broadband at oz (as in the wizard of)

I'm not joking here either, my brain always read it like that as development in Irish broadband and by eircom just seems like magical fantasy to me I guess

mk6705 · 23-10-2009 6:30pm

rebel.ranter wrote: »

Mobile Broadband products are predominantly bought by people to use at a single location despite the mobile capability of the service. This is probably even more true of the NBS sales. Therefore it is probably more predictable than you would think for the operators to calculate demand in a given area, their problem may be in keeping up with deploying additional capacity on a site & backhaul capacity from the site.
You could argue that 3G Smartphone users could wander into the cell affecting the subscriber number sin an area but the level of data download from these users should not be enough to cause major issues in reality.
This is probably more true in a rural area, urban centres probably facilitate mobile users more with locations like cafés, etc.

What about actual phone calls? Which get priority over data? And they won't invest in this anymore once the initial roll out happens.

rebel.ranter · 23-10-2009 11:27pm

Adro947 wrote: »

What about actual phone calls? Which get priority over data? And they won't invest in this anymore once the initial roll out happens.

All the networks bar 3 have a 2G network that is more than capable of handling the voice calls more or less leaving the 3G network for data alone.

mk6705 · 24-10-2009 10:03am

rebel.ranter wrote: »

All the networks bar 3 have a 2G network that is more than capable of handling the voice calls more or less leaving the 3G network for data alone.

Phones with 3G choose it over 2G by preference so that won't be happening.

rebel.ranter · 24-10-2009 6:57pm

Adro947 wrote: »

Phones with 3G choose it over 2G by preference so that won't be happening.

Once a call is set up there various parameters that an operator can set to push the call back to the 2G network. Similar to the way traffic is balanced between the GSM 900 & DCS1800 networks. (OK a bit different but similar enough)

yuloni · 25-10-2009 7:29pm

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Sponge Bob · 25-10-2009 7:57pm

County Sligo is minimum 30km away , are 3 not on the RTE mast in Glencolumbkille....where there is an ADSL2 enabled exchange I believe ???

yuloni · 25-10-2009 8:08pm

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yuloni · 01-11-2009 1:13am

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thebman · 01-11-2009 1:27am

lol is that because the satellite 3 were planning on using was never launched?

Sponge Bob · 01-11-2009 1:37am

I fear that 3 and their mates in SBI are now going to stuff you onto an already overloaded Ka band transponder on Hotbird 6 .

They will likely promise you an upgrade ...except that the 'upgrade' is not due to launch until September 2010 and will remain in test mode for 3-6 months thereafter. So if it is crap now it will be even crapper for all of 2010 and into 2011 when there is some hope. Then again it could blow up on launch or not make orbit and that means rather very crap until 2013 or 2014.

Furthermore the NW of Ireland is on the extremity of the Ka footprint from Hotbird 6 ( see graphic) which means that a rather hefty (I guess 100cm ...maybe 90cm if you are lucky ) dish will be required to deal with those little environmental issues such as rain.

Good luck getting any service quality from either of 3 or SBI ( who will merrily blame each other and who of course both blame Eutelsat

)

Even more luck will be needed getting Eamon Ryan to accept any responsibility , the arrogant little greaseball

yuloni · 01-11-2009 5:20pm

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yuloni · 12-11-2009 1:05am

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hjr · 12-11-2009 12:02pm

Hi Condi,

Thanks for your post...did you have much trouble convincing them that you needed the satellite option and not the mobile broadband option.

I'm in the same position, mobile broadband would be useless, but not sure how to push the issue the NBS to get the tooway option.

Thanks

Sponge Bob · 12-11-2009 12:57pm

If coverage is ****e despite their being live in your area then they already know that , so ring them.

Use maps.yahoo.com to get precise location of your premises ( long and lat in URL as you zoom in )

yuloni · 12-11-2009 10:49pm

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Broadband 'rollout' via NBS, when/where?

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