(Merged) RC Child Abuse Issues/Comments

randylonghorn · 26-05-2009 7:38pm

That reduced me to tears.

Heisenberg. · 26-05-2009 8:02pm

This post has been deleted.

PDN · 26-05-2009 8:16pm

TouchingVirus wrote: »

It was good to see this doing the rounds on the blogs today, but it needs more exposure so I'm posting it here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

That is the most powerful piece of video I have seen in years.

Mickeroo · 26-05-2009 8:44pm

How they got away with it I'll never know :mad:

Handsome Bob · 26-05-2009 8:53pm

TouchingVirus wrote: »

It was good to see this doing the rounds on the blogs today, but it needs more exposure so I'm posting it here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

What do you say to something like that? I'd be too ashamed even to look him in the eye and dare to say sorry.

Rev Hellfire · 26-05-2009 8:54pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

How they got away with it I'll never know :mad:

People kept silent, while the catholic church has a lot of guilt to shoulder in this, the Irish people don't come off smelling of roses. Perhaps a bit of the reason for the extent of the backlash is that no one likes getting reminded of their part in the dirty little secret.

shindig-jp · 26-05-2009 9:36pm

Did anybody here actually read the report ? if not ..here it is ..

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/

coopersgreen · 26-05-2009 10:26pm

O'Coonassa wrote: »

But the Vatican apparently has 500 million euros handy to splash out on a solar power station http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601130&sid=aN2RJ9ob3OoY and that's without selling any assets.

No money for it's victims though :mad:

And they've paid out millions and millions in the US. If they have assets, they should be forced to sell them.

prinz · 26-05-2009 10:53pm

Just had a quick look through some sections of the report and I was struck straight away by the numbers of lay people, party to and complicit in the abuse. Have these people been brought to account?

jank · 27-05-2009 12:02am

Hopefully this will spell the end of "Catholic" Ireland forever.
The church has lost all its moral authority and has lost its flock not only here but Canada, USA and other European countries.

I for one gladly welcome this and the emerging secular society where the church has no power in the day to day affairs of the people. History has shown that once you give people of god power they will ultimately fail in their duties to uphold their founders values.

Yes the society of the time was to blame but that society was largely built upon the church and its infallibility. The church is 90% to blame here. No ways around it. I am ashamed to call my self a catholic and will probably never return to it.

Ireland will wake up in 20-30 years once the older generation has passed on (like my parents) and find all of its Church's empty. A sure sign where the church is indeed a church of man, not of god!

antiskeptic · 27-05-2009 12:11am

That is the most powerful piece of video I have seen in years.

Indeed.

And proof postive, were proof necessary, that there is indeed such a thing as objective truth. Everyone who watched that man knows he spoke the truth - that he wasn't lying. And had anyone been foolish enough to deny his claims head on they would have been revealed as an objective liar.

Proof positive, if proof were necessary, that objective truth is an immensely powerful thing.

antiskeptic · 27-05-2009 12:22am

jank wrote: »

Hopefully this will spell the end of "Catholic" Ireland forever.

It was already at an end - but this should hasten it.

I for one gladly welcome this and the emerging secular society where the church has no power in the day to day affairs of the people. History has shown that once you give people of god power they will ultimately fail in their duties to uphold their founders values.

History has also shown what happens when you give godless people power. The atrocities that follow would push this atrocity into the shade.

Ireland will wake up in 20-30 years once the older generation has passed on (like my parents) and find all of its Church's empty. A sure sign where the church is indeed a church of man, not of god!

Agreed.

Ironically, the Christian viewpoint would hold that what happened is the result of the sin-nature being allowed free reign. It doesn't really matter how it is that free-reign is given to the sinful nature (whether in an industrial school, or in Nazi Germany or on the slave plantations). Given the right circumstances, any fallen man could act in as depraved a fashion as those 'Christian' brothers...

Fintan O'Toole reported as such in last Saturdays Irish Times. A particular brother got a standing ovation from his fellow brothers on arriving at evening meal. It turned out that he wasn't as barbaric at the others in his treatment of the kids but that day had punched a child in the face for the first time. The light in him, that held back abject depravity, had gone out. And the blackened souls of his compatriots delighted in it being extinguished.

Darkness doesn't like the presence of light.

jank · 27-05-2009 1:39am

History has also shown what happens when you give godless people power. The atrocities that follow would push this atrocity into the shade.

I agree to some extent. I don't want this to turn into a history lesson but the church does not have a proud history in terms of the treatment of Native Latin Americans, Inquisitions, women etc. One cannot say this is anyway less evil than say genocide in Nazi Germany or deportations and mass starvations in Stalinist Russia.

The Church is a relic.

Hiding behind any idealogical institution be it political or religious when evil things happen is wrong. The 21st Century has a place for faith but from now in Ireland must be based on the whim of the individual not the society or the needs of the church.

The emperor has no clothes.

Splendour · 27-05-2009 12:11pm

PDN wrote: »

That is the most powerful piece of video I have seen in years.

Ditto. I cried when I heard this man speaking on Morning Ireland.
If I were still a practicing Catholic, I would stand outside my church gates on a sunday morning to ask massgoers to sign a petition expressing their horror and regret as to what was done to these children.

kelly1 · 27-05-2009 1:21pm

I don't for a second condone the abuses perpetrated by priests and religious but why are most people here blaming the Church alone for this whole atrocity?

The State estabished these industrial schools and reformatories and they had a duty of care to perform regular inspections. Everyone knew what was going on behind closed doors but few acted in the defence of these mostly innocent children. Secrecy and silence prevailed.

Abuse was tolerated by the general population and nobody listenened to children when they cried for help. We had a "children should be seen an not heard" attitude. The judges (and Gardai) knew what was going on inside these places and they turned a blind eye.

Why were so few (if any) of the abusers convicted? Reminds me of Nazi Germany!

BTW, my heart goes out to Michael O'Brien who spoke so courageously on Prime Time. Well done to him!

partyguinness · 27-05-2009 1:30pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't for a second condone the abuses perpetrated by priests and religious but why are most people here blaming the Church alone for this whole atrocity?

The State estabished these industrial schools and reformatories and they had a duty of care to perform regular inspections. Everyone knew what was going on behind closed doors but few acted in the defence of these mostly innocent children. Secrecy and silence prevailed.

Abuse was tolerated by the general population and nobody listenened to children when they cried for help. We had a "children should be seen an not heard" attitude. The judges (and Gardai) knew what was going on inside these places and they turned a blind eye.

Why were so few (if any) of the abusers convicted? Reminds me of Nazi Germany!

Big diffences here.

There is no evidence to suggest that the State knew of the sexual abuse in particular.

Sure everyone knew the Orders were very strict on the ol' physical chastisement to put it politely and just accepted it.

Mass raping of innocent defenceless children was certainly not tolerated.

Unlike the State, the Church knew of the sexual abuse and did nothing. Even moved priests etc around.

You say that the State should have carried out inspections. They did. Ok obviously not good enough but was the State not entitled (rightly or wrongly) to assume that the children were being cared for. Mass rape and sexual abuse was unthinkable.

It was the all powerful Catholic Church who were untouchable.

kelly1 · 27-05-2009 1:57pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Big diffences here.

There is no evidence to suggest that the State knew of the sexual abuse in particular.

I find that hard to accept.

partyguinness wrote: »

Sure everyone knew the Orders were very strict on the ol' physical chastisement to put it politely and just accepted it.

Children were beaten black and blue, sometimes to the point of death. How could the state authorities not pick up on this?

partyguinness wrote: »

Mass raping of innocent defenceless children was certainly not tolerated.

Surely loads of stories of sexual abuse leaked out? Why wasn't it investigated further to discover the full extent?

partyguinness wrote: »

Unlike the State, the Church knew of the sexual abuse and did nothing.

But the physical abuse alone should have been sufficent to warrant extensive investigations by the State! Don't get me wrong. Church authorities did cover up abuse to avoid scandal and they betrayed their Christian vocation.

partyguinness wrote: »

You say that the State should have carried out inspections. They did. Ok obviously not good enough but was the State not entitled (rightly or wrongly) to assume that the children were being cared for. Mass rape and sexual abuse was unthinkable.

The state knew what was going on. I know of one Garda (now desceased) who hated having to bring children to Letterfrack but he was silenced by his superiors.

partyguinness wrote: »

It was the all powerful Catholic Church who were untouchable.

Did people not have the guts to expose abuse? Telling the truth isn't a sin! What were they afraid of?

Flamed Diving · 27-05-2009 1:59pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I find that hard to accept.

As do I.

partyguinness · 27-05-2009 2:17pm

Absolutely there was a clear failure by the State at every level. In fact there are still people who do not believe what happened and that it is all some sort of conspiracy to extract money from the Church. Even the religious orders were denying it up to last week.

But IMO this does not somehow make the State more blameworthy. What I find hard to reconcile is the attitude that the State didnt investigate fully therefore they are just as guilty as the abusers.

Remember the religious order were well educated, well heeled and had the backing of an all powerful 2,000 yr old organisation who controlled education, health care, the GAA, politics. In fact they infilitrated every facet of Irish life...

Guess it was a case of "Hear no evil, speak no evil" etc...

Did people not have the guts to expose abuse? Telling the truth isn't a sin! What were they afraid of?

That comes across rather naive. Yes people did not have the guts to stand up and speak out. Irish society in totem is guilty for what happened but it does not mitigate the blame from the abusers. They were afraid of the Church. Nobody would believe them. The deference shown to the Church is almost unimaginable today.

The religious order were expected to act and know better and they were trusted.

Thats what the State and Irish society is guilty of.....trust.

They trusted the Church absolutely.

dreenman · 27-05-2009 2:30pm

This whole arguement as to who should bare the most responsibilty between Chruch & State doesnt seem to have taken into account that the politicians and civil servants are 99% Catholic and in the case of the likes of Ahern still in awe and fear of the Church.

The Catholic church ran these institutions and Catholic civil servants & politicians were complicit by turning a blind eye. Since the abuse became public they seem to have gone out of there way to minimise the impact on the church.

And lets admit anyone who gives money to the Church at Mass or otherwise from now on is continuing to be complicit.

Full compensation for all victims now!

As for the Catholic Church Priests, Nuns & Bishops - well not even Jesus will forgive what you did!

philologos · 27-05-2009 2:38pm

jank wrote: »

I for one gladly welcome this and the emerging secular society where the church has no power in the day to day affairs of the people. History has shown that once you give people of god power they will ultimately fail in their duties to uphold their founders values.

You clearly don't understand what a secular society is. A secular society is one that promotes separation of church authority from the operation of the State. It does not mean a separation of religion from individuals, that's what they call state atheism. In secular countries the choice to religion is held as important, not the denial of religion.

Turkey is a secular country yet 96% of people believe in Islam. The USA is a secular country yet 78% believe in Christianity.

jank wrote: »

Ireland will wake up in 20-30 years once the older generation has passed on (like my parents) and find all of its Church's empty. A sure sign where the church is indeed a church of man, not of god!

That's your choice and you are entitled to it. I sincerely doubt that all churches will be empty or even most.

partyguinness · 27-05-2009 2:43pm

It was pitiful during the weekend to hear Michael Woods trying to deflect attention away from the Orders and trying to exaggerate the role of the State.

And then Bertie Ahern saying that the Church have no money...a particalur Order (name forgotten) sold property in Dublin in 2003 for €105 million for example.

How are they supposed to represent? The State of the Church?

If I every lay eyes on Michael Woods there is a real risk I will punch him. I also understand he is a member of Opus Dei...talk about a conflict of interests. He should hang his head in shame and I hope the voters make him redundant next election. But knowing what these cowards are like..guaranteed he wont stand for election in 2012.

Splendour · 27-05-2009 3:37pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't for a second condone the abuses perpetrated by priests and religious but why are most people here blaming the Church alone for this whole atrocity?

kelly, you're right in what you say but people would have expected more of a Christian attitude from the church than from the rest of society.
Also, I think the church should be doing all they can in their power to make amends to the abuse victims,and I don't see this happening.

A friend of mine was abused by a priest (he basically groped her), and it took her two years to get a letter of apology from the bishop (who btw, didn't believe her at first...). Also alot of the people in her parish didn't believe her either and have shunned her. As far as I'm concerned, a letter of apology should have been read out from the altar and this girl's name cleared. It's about time the church began to openly admit their mistakes instead of brushing them under the carpet...

kelly1 · 27-05-2009 3:46pm

I totally agree. Covering up crimes only makes the situation worse when the abuse is eventually exposed. If the abusers had been handed over to the law by their superiors from the beginning, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It was handled so badly.

partyguinness · 27-05-2009 3:50pm

Another aspect that is forgotten is that the Catholic Church regards itself as above Civil Law and superior to the ordinary rule of law thats governs us dirty lay people.

In effect they saw themselves as untouchable.

If a complaint was made to a priest, he went to the Bishop (who promptly swept it under the carpet or moved the offender in question) not the Gardai.

Skrynesaver · 27-05-2009 4:00pm

Jakkass wrote: »

You clearly don't understand what a secular society is. A secular society is one that promotes separation of church authority from the operation of the State.

And that's precisely what is being advocated:

If you wish to indoctrinate your children, you do it on your own time without state support.

if you want to run a school that includes the teachings of the sky fairy in class time, it receives no state subsidy

If the teachers of a school are paid for by the state, no religion is taught in the school What I'm trying to say is that we do not have a secular society, and for those of us who live in rural Ireland there is enormous difficulty in raising our children without this medieval superstition being foisted upon them:mad:

Bduffman · 28-05-2009 9:03am

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't for a second condone the abuses perpetrated by priests and religious but why are most people here blaming the Church alone for this whole atrocity?

If there was a murder & the gardai, through incompetence, lack of proper procedures etc. failed to catch the murderer - would the gardai be guilty of murder themselves? Guilty of many other things certainly but not of the crime itself.
The religious orders in the report perpetrated the crimes & how much the 'good catholics' representing the state knew about it is uncertain. But the RCC knew about it & covered it up. It is now up to the state to put those wrongs to right & ban the RCC from being involved in education in this country.
I wonder how many catholics there would be in the next few generations without that indoctrination?

kelly1 · 28-05-2009 10:03am

Bduffman wrote: »

If there was a murder & the gardai, through incompetence, lack of proper procedures etc. failed to catch the murderer - would the gardai be guilty of murder themselves? Guilty of many other things certainly but not of the crime itself.
The religious orders in the report perpetrated the crimes & how much the 'good catholics' representing the state knew about it is uncertain. But the RCC knew about it & covered it up. It is now up to the state to put those wrongs to right & ban the RCC from being involved in education in this country.
I wonder how many catholics there would be in the next few generations without that indoctrination?

I fully realize that the the religious perpetrated these crimes and the their superiours covered them up but the dogs in the street knew what the Christian Brothers and other orders were like. They had too much power and the state didn't intervene. The state is guilty in their complicity. They sent the "offenders" to these institutions knowing full well what was going on behind closed doors. I'm not trying to remove blame from the Church, I'm trying to bring some fairness and balance to the discussion.

PDN · 28-05-2009 10:21am

Bduffman wrote: »

If there was a murder & the gardai, through incompetence, lack of proper procedures etc. failed to catch the murderer - would the gardai be guilty of murder themselves?

If the gardai had contracted part of their responsibilities out to the murderer? If the murderer had committed their crime whilst fulfilling those responsibilities under the supervision of the gardai? If the gardai had allowed further murders to continue because it meant covering their own asses? Yes, I would say that would make the gardai guilty of murder themselves.

The Catholic Church is obviously culpable in this whole sordid mess. The same is true of the State. Since independence, Ireland has made little progress towards building a genuine State-run educational system. Instead, like some third world banana republic, we rely on missionaries to educate our children. Shame on us.

Bduffman · 28-05-2009 11:02am

PDN wrote: »

If the gardai had contracted part of their responsibilities out to the murderer? If the murderer had committed their crime whilst fulfilling those responsibilities under the supervision of the gardai? If the gardai had allowed further murders to continue because it meant covering their own asses? Yes, I would say that would make the gardai guilty of murder themselves.

So what you are suggesting is that the state contracted the religious orders to rape & assault children?
That is very different from saying that they absolved themselves from their responsibilities - a great wrong in itself - but very different from deliberately carrying out or directly assisting in the crime.

PDN wrote: »

The Catholic Church is obviously culpable in this whole sordid mess. The same is true of the State. Since independence, Ireland has made little progress towards building a genuine State-run educational system. Instead, like some third world banana republic, we rely on missionaries to educate our children. Shame on us.

Totally agree - its time for this to end.