The 16 Days Campaign.

metrovelvet · 08-12-2008 8:28pm

I cant see how those symbols highlight that.

CDfm · 08-12-2008 8:34pm

tallaght01 wrote: »

But how do they define domestic violence? I hate the overexaggerating of numbers. People look at those figures and assume they're not true. Maybe they are, but I'd be interested to see their data collection techniques.

It's like how we keep getting told in hospitals that one in 2 of us gets assualted every year. They count someone raising their voice to us as "assault". IN that case, I get assaulted most days. But only one person has ever laid a hand on me in work to try and do me harm.

The important thing about violence directed towards women is to get proper reliable reproducible stats about how often it's actually happening, where and when it's happening, and why it's happening.

The only data I have seen for Ireland showed about 3% of women suffereing domestic violence (whether physical or emotional) during pregnancy. That is A) more in line with other countries and 3% too much.

If they're including couples having a row as "assault", then it's just insulting to women who are actually being beaten, or abused mentally.

Having worked in maternity services for many years in some very poor areas (whwere rates are, sadly, higher), I'd be amazed if 1 in 8 women actually experience physical violence during pregnancy. Having said that, it's been a good few years since I worked in mat services in ireland, so i could be wrong.

Its a bit sad that this type of gender biased campaign is running.

I really think a campaign like this should be obliged to point out that Womens Aids campaign only deals with situations where women are victims of domestic violence and does not deal with situations where they are perpetrators.

They recieve massive state funding to the exclusion of victims of women perpetrators which include men,children and the elderly

This campaign is a fund raising campaign by Womens Aid and is very slick and professional- by people whose job it is to know the stereoptype they are pushing is largely untrue.

Take a look at this link for more info- you might think that by denying the problem this campaign facilitates abuse.

http://www.amen.ie/

http://www.amen.ie/Downloads/26014.pdf

Mikel · 08-12-2008 8:52pm

Tbh, I don't have an issue with the perceived bias mentioned in this thread.
If it was a wider discussion on the issue in general then fair enough, but as has been said it's a women's lobby group mentioned in a women's forum.
But, I object to the repeated use of unfounded statistics which have been debunked over and over again.
They get repeated over and over again, and get treated as fact.
Completely undermines what they are trying to do imo

Piste · 08-12-2008 9:41pm

Yeah anyone can use statistics to show anything. For those of you throwing around statistics about women being abused, maybe this will be food for thought:

*results of the British Crime Survey released by the Home Office in January 1999 show that 4.2% of men and 4.2% of women reported that they had been physically assaulted by an intimate partner in their homes in the previous year.

*Aggression in British Heterosexual Relationships, a survey carried out by MORI (1996), show that of the 2,000 people surveyed 18% of men and 13% of women reported that they had sustained physical assaults from an intimate partner.

*In a survey carried out from the University of Calgary (1990), involving 652 female and 471 male participants, approx. 2.5% of men and 6.2% of women admitted to having beaten up their partners.

From the Amen website.

JC 2K3 · 08-12-2008 10:20pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

I don't think those fact if they are right are anti men it think they are anti abusive arseholes and anti rapists.

...which this campaign claims 20% of men in relationships are....

IMHO, It makes no sense to distinguish between men and women when talking about domestic abuse. Sensationalist and very obviously skewed statistics such as these are insulting not only to men, but to female victims of domestic abuse.

And I mean, even talking pragmatically, read any thread on boards relating to a campaign for women's rights or raising awareness of women's issues. There're always dozens of male posters questioning why, if applicable, both genders aren't included in the campaign. There is a negative attitude present in many men towards such campaigns and it is so easily fixed by simply replacing the word "women" with "people".

CDfm · 08-12-2008 10:22pm

Piste wrote: »

*results of the British Crime Survey released by the Home Office in January 1999 show that 4.2% of men and 4.2% of women reported that they had been physically assaulted by an intimate partner in their homes in the previous year.

.

Thats kindof equal- and isnt it a shame that the figures are so high- i feel really sorry for anyone of either gender or age sufferering domestic violence this christmas.

Nevyn · 08-12-2008 10:28pm

JC 2K3 wrote: »

IMHO, It makes no sense to distinguish between men and women when talking about domestic abuse. Sensationalist and very obviously skewed statistics such as these are insulting not only to men, but to female victims of domestic abuse.

Because more women are stay at home parents who are so heavily dependent on their partner/spouse.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

And I mean, even talking pragmatically, read any thread on boards relating to a campaign for women's rights or raising awareness of women's issues. There're always dozens of male posters questioning why, if applicable, both genders aren't included in the campaign. There is a negative attitude present in many men towards such campaigns and it is so easily fixed by simply replacing the word "women" with "people".

I don't think we are there yet, I would like to think we could be soon.
I don't think the needs of men who suffer domestic abuse are the same as
women, they both need safe spaces but they are going to be different safe spaces.

JC 2K3 · 08-12-2008 10:29pm

CDfm wrote: »

Thats kindof equal- and isnt it a shame that the figures are so high- i feel really sorry for anyone of either gender or age sufferering domestic violence this christmas.

That's officially reported crimes though, which, while leaves no room for exaggerated claims, very likely misses out on a large number of valid cases of abuse.

This is why I hate statistics.

JC 2K3 · 08-12-2008 10:33pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Because more women are stay at home parents who are so heavily dependent on their partner/spouse.

I still don't see how this means that there should be a distinction....

Thaedydal wrote: »

I don't think we are there yet, I would like to think we could be soon.
I don't think the needs of men who suffer domestic abuse are the same as
women, they both need safe spaces but they are going to be different safe spaces.

Can you expand on this? I don't know all that much about treatment for domestic abuse. I presume a safe space would be somewhere away from their partner. Why would it be different for men and women?

Piste · 08-12-2008 11:42pm

I think with women they tend to suffer more physical abuse whereas men suffer emotional abuse, so women need to be physically removed from their partners, whereas men need to be uncontactable.

I think it's disgraceful the way the courts almost always find in favour of women during a separation, even if the man claims he has been abused. Some of the victim stories on the Amen website really made my blood boil.

CDfm · 08-12-2008 11:48pm

Piste wrote: »

I think with women they tend to suffer more physical abuse whereas men suffer emotional abuse, so women need to be physically removed from their partners, whereas men need to be uncontactable.

I think it's disgraceful the way the courts almost always find in favour of women during a separation, even if the man claims he has been abused. Some of the victim stories on the Amen website really made my blood boil.

unfortunately - its adversorial and the current adversorial model feeds on it.

Its a pity Womens Aid who claim to be against abuse tend to be against change.

they are in DENIAL

Stheno · 08-12-2008 11:49pm

Piste wrote: »

I think with women they tend to suffer more physical abuse whereas men suffer emotional abuse, so women need to be physically removed from their partners, whereas men need to be uncontactable.

I'm not sure that's the case imo, suffering physical abuse from a partner will cause most people, be they male or female to suffer emotionally, and often the mere threat of violence can be emotional abuse.

Also in terms of being uncontactable, regardless of gender, in a violent/abusive relationship, after being physically removed/leaving the violent partner, one often needs to be uncontactable/completely out of the area one was in, it's not uncommon for the violent partner to "come looking for" or stalk the partner being abused, again just mho.

Piste · 09-12-2008 12:09am

Yeah good point, well in that case Men and Women have little difference in their needs to escape from abuse. They'll both have the same concerns (their safety, safety of their children).

Stheno · 09-12-2008 12:12am

Piste wrote: »

Yeah good point, well in that case Men and Women have little difference in their needs to escape from abuse. They'll both have the same concerns (their safety, safety of their children).

It's just my perspective on it tbh, Thaed will most likely have more detail that's more than an opinion/perspective.

I would say (and it's possibly a complete generalisation) that women may have different needs in most cases in that they may not have financial resources that men may have, which would restrict their ability to leave/hide/run/move away.

Piste · 09-12-2008 12:14am

It would be an interesting thing to investigate, are more stay at home, non-working women abuseed than women with their own careers?

Stheno · 09-12-2008 12:31am

Piste wrote: »

It would be an interesting thing to investigate, are more stay at home, non-working women abuseed than women with their own careers?

I'd wonder that too, but I'd wonder also if successful "career" women would be less likely to report it for whatever reason.

panda100 · 09-12-2008 12:39am

cuckoo wrote: »

I think the statistics provoke discussions like the one on this thread. They are a depressing set of factoids and numbers - but they make me stop, pause and go 'huh? what the...what's going on....why?'.
.

Unfortunatly the only debate that has been provoked on this thread, as per usual on serious topics in the Ladies lounge, is the validaity of the statistics available be that on sexual assualt/domestic violence/or any other type of injustice that predominantly affects one gender.

Judging from the opinions of people on this thread, and the media at large, If I was a victim of domestic abuse I would be very slow at coming out in what seems to be a very hostile enviroment to women who has suffered abuse, be that physical, mental or sexual. Theres always that judgment waiting to happen. Wether its a women wearing a short skirt deserving to be raped or a women who doesnt leave her violent husband putting her kids at risk and being a bad mother.
I think its the judgments that women face by society that make it more diffcult for women to come forward to professinals such as the gardai or doctors and hence data statistics is poor from official sources.

As for the poster who thinks that Women Aid are IN DENIAL. Spend one night volunteering with them and you'll soon find out whose in denial.

Piste · 09-12-2008 12:51am

I think those of us criticising the validity of the statistics would be very happy to see more women reporting abuse exactly as it is, so that more accurate statistics could be obtained. No one's denying that abuse happens, it's the extent of it that's in dispute.

metrovelvet · 09-12-2008 12:52am

People have been assuming here that the campaign assumes the perpetrator against the female victim is male. I cant see where this assumption is proved right in any of the links provided by Thaed. I had assumed that this campaign was to protect both abused by male partners and by female partners. The stupid street theatre symbolism kind of made me question this as it seemed to be strictly critisizing the heterosexual, christian couple. There was no mention of people marching dressed up as Hindu or Islam brides? Lesbians? I guess it doesnt happen to them? I guess they don't deserve recognition?

Mikel · 09-12-2008 12:54am

panda100 wrote: »

Judging from the opinions of people on this thread, and the media at large, If I was a victim of domestic abuse I would be very slow at coming out in what seems to be a very hostile enviroment to women who has suffered abuse, be that physical, mental or sexual. Theres always that judgment waiting to happen. Wether its a women wearing a short skirt deserving to be raped or a women who doesnt leave her violent husband putting her kids at risk and being a bad mother.
I think its the judgments that women face by society that make it more diffcult for women to come forward to professinals such as the gardai or doctors and hence data statistics is poor from official sources.

That's an impressive list of straw man arguments.
Sorry straw person

You're right about one thing though, the pattern of this thread is entirely predictable.
And while some might find that frustrating, there's a relatively simple solution imo.
Stop with the 1 in 3/4/5 or whatever it happens to be today until you can back it up. Otherwise you're always going to get pulled up on it and the message is lost.
Stop misinterpreting the legitimate debate over statistics or methodology or ideology with condoning the behaviour you want to see eradicated.
Stop putting words in the mouths of people who don't immediately row in behind you eg

Wether its a women wearing a short skirt deserving to be raped

You're arguing against an argument no one is making.

panda100 · 09-12-2008 1:21am

metrovelvet wrote: »

The stupid street theatre symbolism kind of made me question this as it seemed to be strictly critisizing the heterosexual, christian couple. There was no mention of people marching dressed up as Hindu or Islam brides? Lesbians? I guess it doesnt happen to them? I guess they don't deserve recognition?

If this was Saudi Arabia i'm sure they would be targetting Muslim brides.This is 2008 Ireland and Womens Aid have very limited resources so of course it is going to reach out to the people it helps the most, which in Ireland would be the heterosexual,white couple.
This doesnt mean they ignore other minorty groups, in fact womens aid works closely with Aikidwa and other such groups.

Mikel wrote: »

And while some might find that frustrating, there's a relatively simple solution imo.
Stop with the 1 in 3/4/5 or whatever it happens to be today until you can back it up. Otherwise you're always going to get pulled up on it and the message is lost.
.

Ok i dont exactly have the resources to conduct my own personal data on domestic violence. Even If I did I doubt I would get the full picture anyway. As I've said before with senitive personal cases such as domestic violence you will never get an accurate figure of what is really going on. Its not like your counting the amount of people who have asthma or heart disease.
You are never going to get 100% accurate statistics on something like domestic violence,rape or suicide when there is such stigmas attached to them in society and its very difficult for people to speak out and talk about what they have experienced.
So yes I am sure the statistics are slightly inacaurate because we are measuring something that is difficult to measure. However, the statistics are a good rough estimate of what is exactly occuring, its conducted from womens shelters, hosptials, support lines etc and this gives us a good overall picture.

Regardless of this, wether it happens to 1 in 4 women, 1 in 10 women or 1 in 400 women? Which statistic would make you most comfortable? As far as Im concerned it should be 0 in 0 women and men suffering domestic violence.
So im not going to get into semantics about statistics that shouldnt even be there in the first place.

CDfm · 09-12-2008 1:33am

panda100 wrote: »

Unfortunatly the only debate that has been provoked on this thread, as per usual on serious topics in the Ladies lounge, is the validaity of the statistics available be that on sexual assualt/domestic violence/or any other type of injustice that predominantly affects one gender.

I think its the judgments that women face by society that make it more diffcult for women to come forward to professinals such as the gardai or doctors and hence data statistics is poor from official sources.

As for the poster who thinks that Women Aid are IN DENIAL. Spend one night volunteering with them and you'll soon find out whose in denial.

The point I made about the Womens Aid programme being in DENIAL is that as an organisation it fails to acknowledge that women are perpetrators and that women actively engage in Domestic Violence. Its a myth that they (womens Aid) represent all victims of domestic violence- they only represent women - they do not represent men, children or elderly victims of women.

Women do not face any such pressure not to come forward as all resultant court appearances are done either in camera or with anonymity in the press.

The Statistics being questions are the ones used by Womens Aid which are from sources other than official state statistics or ones whose methodoligy has been questioned by peer review and appear to inflate figures.Why they do this is anyones guess but it would seem to be to raise funds and to do this would be unethical.

Why cant they use the official figures- In PR its known as framing a story to get coverage.

Womens Aid appears to condone or excuse the behavior of Women perpetrators by not acknowledging it.SAying that is not taking away from the good work that they do.I would expect all groups involved in Domestic Violence regardless of gender to condemn domestic violence irrespective of the gender of the victim or perpetrator.

Its simple Womens Aid are against gender neutrality in dealing with domestic Violence.

metrovelvet · 09-12-2008 1:36am

panda100 wrote: »

If this was Saudi Arabia i'm sure they would be targetting Muslim brides.This is 2008 Ireland and Womens Aid have very limited resources so of course it is going to reach out to the people it helps the most, which in Ireland would be the heterosexual,white couple.
This doesnt mean they ignore other minorty groups, in fact womens aid works closely with Aikidwa and other such groups.

You mean the heterosexual white woman. So it leaves out women who are lesbians and aren't white in their dumb street theatre? That's a lot a women.... In fact, isnt that discrimination?

And your not a stickler for numbers really are you? Given that you dont think the accuracy of statistics count for much? Should it really matter that there aren't enough of non white heterosexual women in Ireland to get recognised in the campaign?

metrovelvet · 09-12-2008 1:40am

CDfm wrote: »

The point I made about the Womens Aid programme being in DENIAL is that as an organisation it fails to acknowledge that women are perpetrators and that women actively engage in Domestic Violence. Its a myth that they (womens Aid) represent all victims of domestic violence- they only represent women - they do not represent men, children or elderly victims of women.

Women do not face any such pressure not to come forward as all resultant court appearances are done either in camera or with anonymity in the press.

The Statistics being questions are the ones used by Womens Aid which are from sources other than official state statistics or ones whose methodoligy has been questioned by peer review and appear to inflate figures.Why they do this is anyones guess but it would seem to be to raise funds and to do this would be unethical.

Womens Aid appears to condone or excuse the behavior of Women perpetrators by not acknowledging it.SAying that is not taking away from the good work that they do.I would expect all groups involved in Domestic Violence regardless of gender to condemn domestic violence irrespective of the gender of the victim or perpetrator.

Its simple Womens Aid are against gender neutrality in dealing with domestic Violence.

They dont focus on men and children because there are different dynamics and issues involved with women then with men. Their focus is on healing the victim and not on the sins of perpetrator, that is what the courts are for. Amen covers the women as perpetrator also, [or do they also point to the men as well as domestic violence within gay couples too? - I honestly dont know here.]

CDfm · 09-12-2008 1:46am

panda100 wrote: »

So yes I am sure the statistics are slightly inacaurate because we are measuring something that is difficult to measure.

Regardless of this, wether it happens to 1 in 4 women, 1 in 10 women or 1 in 400 women? Which statistic would make you most comfortable? As far as Im concerned it should be 0 in 0 women and men suffering domestic violence.
So im not going to get into semantics about statistics that shouldnt even be there in the first place.

Why are you so resistant to using the official state crime statistics and satisfied with unreliable sources.Statistically differences are highly significant - if there is more than a 5% difference -these are not just slight inaccuracies - but hundreds of percentages should set alarm bells ringing and cause the statistics to be withdrawn.

It does matter as well over 95% of all state funding for domestic violence goes to Womens Groups and the majority to Womens Aid. O% is spent by them highlighting Women perpetrators or tackling issues where the victims of women are children, the elderly or men.

CDfm · 09-12-2008 1:58am

metrovelvet wrote: »

They dont focus on men and children because there are different dynamics and issues involved with women then with men.

Thats trash -Women are abused by men - Men are abused by women. The common factor is abuse and the dynamic is violence.

Same dog -different hair.

Mikel · 09-12-2008 2:00am

panda100 wrote: »

Regardless of this, wether it happens to 1 in 4 women, 1 in 10 women or 1 in 400 women? Which statistic would make you most comfortable? As far as Im concerned it should be 0 in 0 women and men suffering domestic violence.
So im not going to get into semantics about statistics that shouldnt even be there in the first place.

I'm afraid you're missing the point. And I'm sure as far as everyone else here is concerned it should be zero too, so there's no need to go clambering up to the moral high ground as if your position is unique.
As soon as you say 1 in 5 women is the victim of abuse you are saying a similar number of men are abusers/rapists whatever.
Think this is true? How many men do you know? It's a small sample but on average 20% of them are abusers apparently.
Anyone who is sceptical and looks into it will find the numbers are bogus and possibly deliberately so.
What does that do to your argument?
Add in the fact that organisations which present themselves as impartial defenders of the victim are in fact ideologically driven and pursue a biased agenda weakens the argument further.

Until Women's Aid and the like lose their obsession with sensational and false statistics, and stop trying to label a large part of the male population as abusers they'll never get anywhere

metrovelvet · 09-12-2008 2:39am

CDfm wrote: »

Thats trash -Women are abused by men - Men are abused by women. The common factor is abuse and the dynamic is violence.

Same dog -different hair.

Not true. First of all there is more of a stigma on men reporting it. Secondly, as was pointed out by an AMEN representative some time ago on Radio 1, men are at a loss as to how to defend themselves when assaulted by a woman for a variety of reasons. Secondly, as was pointed out earlier, a SAHM who is financially dependent on her husband/partner will have a whole other set of problems. There are also agencies for children who are victims of child abuse, also a whole set of different issues. Do you charge them with discrimination and cry "violence is violence" and have them all lumped into the same agency?

...So the different agencies have to address the different needs.

Out of curiosity do you write to AMEN and Women's Aid about your perceived discriminations?

tallaght01 · 09-12-2008 7:35am

panda100 wrote: »

Unfortunatly the only debate that has been provoked on this thread, as per usual on serious topics in the Ladies lounge, is the validaity of the statistics available be that on sexual assualt/domestic violence/or any other type of injustice that predominantly affects one gender.

Judging from the opinions of people on this thread, and the media at large, If I was a victim of domestic abuse I would be very slow at coming out in what seems to be a very hostile enviroment to women who has suffered abuse, be that physical, mental or sexual. Theres always that judgment waiting to happen. Wether its a women wearing a short skirt deserving to be raped or a women who doesnt leave her violent husband putting her kids at risk and being a bad mother.
I think its the judgments that women face by society that make it more diffcult for women to come forward to professinals such as the gardai or doctors and hence data statistics is poor from official sources.

As for the poster who thinks that Women Aid are IN DENIAL. Spend one night volunteering with them and you'll soon find out whose in denial.

What on earth do you think those of us who are questioning the stats are saying????????

CDfm · 09-12-2008 9:25am

metrovelvet wrote: »

Not true. First of all there is more of a stigma on men reporting it. Secondly, as was pointed out by an AMEN representative some time ago on Radio 1, men are at a loss as to how to defend themselves when assaulted by a woman for a variety of reasons. Secondly, as was pointed out earlier, a SAHM who is financially dependent on her husband/partner will have a whole other set of problems. There are also agencies for children who are victims of child abuse, also a whole set of different issues. Do you charge them with discrimination and cry "violence is violence" and have them all lumped into the same agency?

...So the different agencies have to address the different needs.

Out of curiosity do you write to AMEN and Women's Aid about your perceived discriminations?

I find it interesting that you cant just come out and say domestic violence is wrong in all its forms and thats what the message should be.

There are mechanisms and facilities for a male abuser to be put out of the home but they are not used for female abusers.

Whats the problem with saying women are abusers too and i cant see why you are compelled to defend them and come up with excuses why it shouldnt be so.

The 16 Days Campaign.

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