Pistol Refusal by High Court Judge ?
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During my last visit to see my Super he seemed more worried about criminal elements either robbing my house or calling and taking my firearms by force than me doing something stupid or dangerous with them. A reasonable cencern IMO.
He also stated that the more firearms I have in the house the more of "a target" I become, another reasonable concern IMO.
However, these are chances I am willing to take at the moment0 -
Don't be too sad - it means the Gardai are saying "here, this kind of shooting's fine, why don't you do it?". Which is a marked improvement on a while back when they were saying "Shooting? Feck off, that's far too dangerous for anyone but us and the army - what are you, a terrorist or a bank robber or both?". That is progress, even if not as much as we'd like - but it implies that given enough time, they'll come round. Granted, we may all have gray hair by then, but still......
Oylympic shooting would be fine if I wanted to do it. But unfortuantely, I don't have reasonable access to anywhere that does it
They seem to be saying unless it's Olympic type shooting there is something wrong with it though :eek: Good for the Olympic shooters but what about the rest of us
And it has been admitted here that Olympc shooters are a very small minority of the shooting community.
Be a bad reflection on the establishment if it frowned on anything Olympic really, even shooting0 -
bunny shooter wrote: »Oylympic shooting would be fine if I wanted to do it. But unfortuantely, I don't have reasonable access to anywhere that does it
They seem to be saying unless it's Olympic type shooting there is something wrong with it though :eek: Good for the Olympic shooters but what about the rest of us
And it has been admitted here that Olympc shooters are a very small minority of the shooting community.
Indeed they are, but since the Olympics are on the telly (even if the shooting rarely is) and the other types of shooting are rarely seen by non-shooters it's easier for a Superintendent to relate to. There's an element of the familiar about it.
There's probably also an element of "Well, if they let it into the Olympics it must be safe" about it too.
At the end of the day, many Superintendents and FAOs won't see firearms outside the "criminal weapon" or "farmer's shotgun" classes so it's not surprising that they view the unfamiliar as dangerous.bunny shooter wrote: »Be a bad reflection on the establishment if it frowned on anything Olympic really, even shooting
Well, they frowned on all the Olympic/ISSF pistol shooters until very recently.0 -
(And correct me if I'm wrong, because IPSC isn't my bag, but don't you score higher with a .40 or .45 than you do with a 9mm in those matches
Yup, 9mm is the minor calibre class.You cannot use anything below that.Although there is apprently a ISPC class of shooting specifically now for airsoft."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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bunny shooter wrote: »During my last visit to see my Super he seemed more worried about criminal elements either robbing my house or calling and taking my firearms by force than me doing something stupid or dangerous with them. A reasonable cencern IMO.
He also stated that the more firearms I have in the house the more of "a target" I become, another reasonable concern IMO.
However, these are chances I am willing to take at the moment
Point is;It is a concern but I have always wonderd on this,how do they know you have guns?
Who is going to tell the criminal class that you have firearms???You hardly have a big sign up saying Gun owner lives here.So this is always the one that I am baffled about."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Grizzly 45 wrote: »Point is;It is a concern but I have always wonderd on this,how do they know you have guns?
Who is going to tell the criminal class that you have firearms???You hardly have a big sign up saying Gun owner lives here.So this is always the one that I am baffled about.
I live in a small country town.
My next door neighbours son is doing time for armed robbery etc
Locals probably know I shoot, not necessarily with what though. Every time I leave house with firearm it's in a case, so they have fair idea it's a firearm but not what type.0 -
Grizzly 45 wrote: »Point is;It is a concern but I have always wonderd on this,how do they know you have guns?
Who is going to tell the criminal class that you have firearms???You hardly have a big sign up saying Gun owner lives here.So this is always the one that I am baffled about.
hi grizzly up to two years ago in mayo the made anybody that had a firearm come near 31-july people had to show the firearm to the fao
for the new cert i ask two weeks ago when will i bring mine. 22 rinfire.
he say no way just bring the rifle bolt with you and that will be ok
i ask why his ans i have more paper work to do if the local robbed
see you with a rifle he will watch you and rob your house
so bolt only:)my fo also like to go hunting with his .223 cz
i know when i want a .223 centrefire their will be no problem steve:)
ps i am in the 3star club0 -
The fallacy of no legally held hand guns in the UK. As part of the RTE report on the Donegal Case, it was stated that there are no legally held hand guns in the UK this is untrue. I was in Bisley two months ago and seen them for sale. In the North of Ireland which is part of the UK they use exactly the same pistols as we use here.
Yes the ones in the UK mainland have longer barrels and counterbalance weights, but they use the same calibres as we use here. This fallacy has to be cleared up. Is there any record of these pistols being used in crime in the UK mainland, I don’t think so.
It is a ridicules situation that we have the OIREACHTAS elected by the people to make law, the Department of Justice to put in place, the Garda to enforce it and we have superintendents making their own rules for their individual districts. What if a superintendent decided that he did not want cars over 1100cc in his district because the more powerful are more dangerous, would this be allowed, I don’t think so.
Below is an advertisement I copied from the Internet for pistols and revolvers for sale from a firearms dealer in the UK.
I think that RTE be made aware of at least this misinformation that they have released in relation to hand guns being legally available in the UK/Northern Ireland.
Michael O’Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club
GUNSHOP
15 Cat Hill, East Barnet, Hertfordshire, EN4 8HG
Opening Hours 9:30 to 6:00 Lunch 1:00 till 2:00
Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday
E-Mail joe@gunshop-eb.co.uk
020 8440 2974
Long Barrel Revolvers and Pistols PRICE
.22" LR Alpha 6 Shot Blue New........................................................ £435-00
.357" Alpha 6 Shot Blue New............................................................ £515-00
.44" Mag Freedom Arms 6 Shot Stainless New............................. £1979-00
.17"HMR Taurus M 01 7 Shot Stainless New................................... £615-00
.22" LR Taurus Mod 980 7 Shot Stainless New................................ £615-00
.22" Mag Taurus Mod 980 7 Shot Stainless New.............................. £615-00
.30" M 1 Taurus Mod 30S 8 Shot Stainless New.............................. £645-00
.357" Mag Taurus Mod 66 7 Shot Blue S/H..................................... £425-00
.357" Mag Taurus Mod 66 7 Shot Stainless New............................. £615-00
.44" Mag Taurus Mod 044 6 Shot Stainless New............................. £645-00
Air Rifles | Air Pistols
Automatic and Pump action Shotguns | English Shotguns | Left Handed Shotguns | Over and Under Shotguns
Side by Side Shotguns | Small bore and Single Barrel Shotguns
Centerfire Sporting Rifles | Centerfire Target Rifles | Left Handed Rifles | Military Rifles | Rimfire Rifles
.17" Rimfire Rifles | FAC Air Rifles | Underlever Rifles | Rifle Stocks | Long Barrel Revolvers|
B-Square Scope mounts | Hillver Scope Mounts | Leupold Scope Mounts | Millett Scope Mounts | Telescopic sights
Blackpowder | Accessories | Magazines | Reloading Components | Spare parts | Centerfire Target Ammunition | Home0 -
BTW BS it was a general question not you specific.:)
Uhmm,had that one too of criminals living in the neighbourhood that might steal....excuse as well.Checked it out with one of my more litigatious legal contacts,in his opinion,[which is expensive and very damn good,on firearms matters.] It wont wash.Yes ,it must be considerd,but unless the person with the form is residing in your abode and has access to the firearms,by your negligence or consent,it is not a valid excuse,especially as security cabinets are becoming mandatory.
Plus,if your gun is nicked,who is the first person the Boys in Blue are going to have words with???Your neighbours son when he is out again.
Drag the guns into the station malarkey.Had that one as well.Rang the local station.Leave them where they are,we know you have them under lock&key,good enough for us.Only time they inspected them was when a body was dumped appx 3/4 mile from us from one of the Limerick shootouts.Admitted make work exercise by the Gardai.Considering they knew already what cal had shot him.
All the more reasons all the district HQs need a dedicated trained up FAO,[prefably one that has an intrest in firearms as well]that a Super can refer to on all matters firearm technicalities.Who can go off and inspect saftey features,firearms being where they shoiuld be, etc.
Sika,
Not trying to split hairs here,but there is a defination in UK firearms law as to what a handgun actually is regarding weights,and dimensions.By rights what the UK now calls handguns are freaks ,neither fish nor fowl,to pass UK firearms laws. A handgun does generally not have a wrist brace,or a barrel over 12 ins.You are right,they havent been used in any crime,because they are too ungainly,and impossible to modify without destroying the gun from working properly.
The main reason they were built this way was to prevent them being modified down to somthing practical for criminals,IE concealability.Calibre was never really a big thing in the UK.I mean you can still buy handguns over there in obsolete cals in original configs no problem.IE 455 Webly semi auto pistols,etc. So technically they are somwhat right on that point.
NI,being a seperate entity,and with an unique political situation which can be argued had a bearing on the firearms rules,was always seperate from Westminister in that respect.Nor would it carry that having a NI handgun cert would allow you to carry and posses a handgun in mainland UK.One of my Ex bosses,having served in the RUC and RMP,and residing in NI at the time,decided to travel to London and onwards to the Continent to engage in some free lance security in the Yougo conflict.Decides to take his Glock with him,NI liscense,police assoc,RMP assoc,etc ID with him.Stops over a few days in London,and leaves the firearm in his hotel room secured in the hotel safe.He was promptly arrested for possesion of an illegal firearm,after nosy hotel staff opened his safe box in reception.Cost him eight weeks on remand in Pentonville.But did manage to get off,due to his exellent service record and I suspect being part of the funny handshake club.
Remember the mejia dont give two hoots for truth and accruacy.It bleeds,or has the potential to,it leads!Anyways the sheeple will have forgotten about it within 72 hours unless they are reminded about it again."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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bunny shooter wrote: »Oylympic shooting would be fine if I wanted to do it. But unfortuantely, I don't have reasonable access to anywhere that does it
Everyone seems to think that when they say "Olympic shooting" they mean standing up there with Ralf Schumann in Athens or something. That's not what it means (well, it is a part of it if you want it, but most don't).Good for the Olympic shooters but what about the rest of us
Well, congratulations, you're an olympic shooter.And it has been admitted here that Olympc shooters are a very small minority of the shooting community.
However, all pistol shooters, treated as a single group, are a tiny minority of the shooting community (6,000 in total out of nearly 240,000 licences?) And all rifle shooters are a small minority of shooters (~70,000 out of 240,000). Shotgun is the majority discipline in Ireland (~160,000 out of 240,000). And if you lump the ICPSA shooters and the NARGC shooters in there as one, you find that they're a minority as well.
So who's the single biggest player in the shooting community?
The IFA.
Single-barrel shotguns used for blasting magpies lads, if you don't have one, you're in a minority...0 -
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If money was no object, you'd appeal to the circuit court
Whoopsie. No, you wouldn't - under the CJA 2006 rules, you're appealing to the District Court, which means that the DC's judgement is final and binding. The sole exception is that you can appeal to the High Court if there's an error in a point of law in the DC judgement. (Appealing from the DC to the circuit court to the high court to the supreme court is the path taken by criminal cases)0 -
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Well, if you want a firearm whose main selling point is that it'll fire even after being stuck into mud, go right ahead. Me, I want a firearm whose main selling point is that the bullet or pellet goes into the same hole on the target every time0
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Sounds like you need a HK Mod23 then Sparks.Takes abuse no bother and still shoots thru the previous hole in the X ring.:P:P.
Who s is that cheap poor barrister that only drives an S class???
Must be a newbie.:D:D:D"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Who s is that cheap poor barrister that only drives an S class???0
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From the Sunday Business Post:Gun lobby group to appeal decision
06 July 2008 By John Burke
The country’s main gun lobby group plans to appeal a High Court judgment that has major implications for the growing number of handguns in Ireland.
The National Association for Regional Game Councils (NARGC) will seek to appeal to the Supreme Court a decision made last week by Justice Peter Charlton.
He denied a Donegal gun enthusiast permission to seek a judicial review against a garda refusal to allow him to license a . 40-calibre Glock pistol.
The case is the first time in recent years that the High Court has agreed with the decision of a senior garda to refuse to license a handgun.
Since 2002, the NARGC had helped people in 70 judicial review cases against the non-issue of firearms licences and has won all of the cases which have been completed up to last week’s judgment.
Ronan McCarron sought the judicial review against the decision of Letterkenny superintendent Peadar Kearney to refuse a licence for the gun.
McCarron said in his application that he felt aggrieved over the garda’s refusal to allow him to have this high-calibre pistol ‘‘because so many of his shooting friends already have them’’.
The NARGC is expected to argue that Justice Charlton’s judgment is in direct contrast with another High Court decision in recent weeks. I n that case, Justice Maureen Harding Clark found that a garda superintendent could not refuse to allow a firearm to be licensed over concerns that the calibre of the firearm was over a certain threshold.
Almost 1,600 handguns are now licenced to private gun owners. The total number of licenced guns in the state is more than 218,670, which includes handguns, rifles and shotguns.
Something does need doing about this precedent, but this doesn't strike me as a nice clean case to be going forward with at all.0 -
What the UK now calls handguns are freaks ,neither fish nor fowl,to pass UK firearms laws. A handgun does generally not have a wrist brace,or a barrel over 12 ins.You are right,they havent been used in any crime,because they are too ungainly,and impossible to modify without destroying the gun from working properly.
NI,being a seperate entity,and with an unique political situation which can be argued had a bearing on the firearms rules,was always seperate from Westminister
Quote [Grizzly 45] Think Grizzly if you turn on the angle grinder and chop off 6" you will have something more compact, recrown job and mr criminal nut job won't care. Re NI all that matters is that they have never changed the law banning short pistols / highpowered rifles,they retained full rights to possess practice and use these firearms while we in the south lock ours up for 30 years.
[IMG]tp://www.severnsidearms.co.uk/assets/images/autogen/a_Ruger_Long_Barrel_Revolver_.jpg[/IMG]
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Mac Gunner wrote: »Think Grizzly if you turn on the angle grinder and chop off 6" you will have something more compactRe NI all that matters is that...
If you were drafting new legislation or changing existing legislation, it might be relevant, but if you're just looking to get your new pistol down here, N.Ireland is utterly irrelevant from the pragmatic point of view.0 -
And illegal. Do something like that and you are the criminal. All that matters with N.Ireland is that it's not the Republic, and that their situation has no bearing on court cases over licencing here.
If you were drafting new legislation or changing existing legislation, it might be relevant, but if you're just looking to get your new pistol down here, N.Ireland is utterly irrelevant from the pragmatic point of view.
Sparks you say the UK/Northern Ireland guns laws are irrelevant to quote here on boards but still RTE and the Judge can use them as a reference to stop legitimate shooters here getting a FAC for their firearm. Public perception this is why the media use the UK cases/law as a reference.
Here we have double standards again the Judge/RTE can quote any legal case or situation to get their point across but the Irish shooter cant. Hmmmm0 -
Sika,
Not trying to split hairs here,but there is a defination in UK firearms law as to what a handgun actually is regarding weights,and dimensions.By rights what the UK now calls handguns are freaks ,neither fish nor fowl,to pass UK firearms laws. A handgun does generally not have a wrist brace,or a barrel over 12 ins.You are right,they havent been used in any crime,because they are too ungainly,and impossible to modify without destroying the gun from working properly.
Sparks, reference was made that no pistols are available in the UK. Yes they are,12" pistols havent been used in crime in the uk. How does anyone know unless one gets discovered by the UK police. Yes it is a crime in the UK to chop down a barrel but the point remains that for the criminal to rob one of these 12" revolvers and say its no use is patently wrong as the criminal will have no concerns in having the barrel reduced in lenght to suit his needs.0 -
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Guys,
You missed the point I am making. If you chop this down to 6in or below 12 ins.You destroy the mechanism holding the cylinder in place. These guns were specifically designed for the UK market,[as no one else sees much point in 12 in revolvers any place else] with these design features built into ithem.Otherwise they cannot be sold in ythe UK mainland.
Plus it is a lot easier to get a deact react or East bloc blank firing pistol,than faffing around with a complex gunsmith operation.
Agree with the point that it is unfair to comment from legislation outside IRL.Trouble is,it is his court and he does have qualified privilidge to use or abuse as he sees fit.:("If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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It will have to be a system like in the north where all applications go to one place and are sorted out there.
Sparks reply: And then it just takes one problem person to screw it up for everyone. Right now, one or three problem people = 99% or so of all applications/renewals handled fine, and the courts can handle the rest.
I dont think so sparks. Is it ever a problem for anyone who puts in for a driving licence? No. Unless they are banned from driving. Why cant we have the same system for firearms? Once the law is clear as to who can/cant have a firearm it is as easy as that. Its how every other country seems to do it.
Instead we have some supers who seem to be related to Rev.Paisley and cry NEVER, NEVER, NEVER while the super in the next county will sit down with the person and talk and maybe come to an meeting point.
The Gardi will still have to put in there report of that persons history etc. But at least it would level the pitch for everyone.0 -
I dont think so sparks. Is it ever a problem for anyone who puts in for a driving licence? No. Unless they are banned from driving. Why cant we have the same system for firearms? Once the law is clear as to who can/cant have a firearm it is as easy as that. Its how every other country seems to do it.
You really don't want a system like the driving license TBH. Think it takes a while to get a FAC now? How about after you have to wait months to get a test before you can have the license?
One central application like in the north would be nice from an efficiency point of view, but I can't see it resulting in less refusals.0 -
One central application like in the north would be nice from an efficiency point of view, but I can't see it resulting in less refusals.
I think it would be a far better system. Have a list of boxes that have Yes, No answers eg: Has the applicant a criminal record etc. If the applicant ticks all the yes boxes all well if not its a no go on his licence. Garda Statements would of course have alot of weight to a final outcome.
At least we would not see this crazy system of supers not allowing a licence just because he doesnt like the sound/look of it. If we had one rule book to read from do you not think it would at least be a fairer system?0 -
At least we would not see this crazy system of supers not allowing a licence just because he doesnt like the sound/look of it. If we had one rule book to read from do you not think it would at least be a fairer system?
It would definitely be fairer if everyone was judged according to the same criteria. The only catch is that removing the persona designata status of the Super would require quite an overhaul of the law.0 -
It would definitely be fairer if everyone was judged according to the same criteria. The only catch is that removing the persona designata status of the Super would require quite an overhaul of the law.
Scrapping the firearms acts and starting again would be a very good start alright:D0 -
Scrapping the firearms acts and starting again would be a very good start alright:D
Maybe, but I doubt we'd get a good firearms act out of it. If every part of the firearms act was up for debate and modification in the Dáil, I reckon we'd do pretty badly. Letting all the TDs get their mitts on it would probably end badly.
Now, just rolling up the existing legislation would be helpful in itself. I don't think there'd be much argument about it:What you would like to see, given there’s so much gun crime and so much public concern about it, is a single modern gun act 2008 where in a single document you can find the entire law on this area. So at least everybody can understand what the law is.I feel it necessary to add, however, that the piecemeal spreading over multiple pieces of legislation of the statutory rules for the control of firearms is undesirable. Codification in that area is almost as pressing a need as it is in the area of sexual violence.0 -
bunny shooter wrote: »It's a ruger single six, still classified "Olympic" ?
A friend has one, maybe not Olympic, but a real hoot to shoot, gem! :pac:0 -
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Sparks you say the UK/Northern Ireland guns laws are irrelevant to quote here on boardsbut still RTE and the Judge can use them as a reference to stop legitimate shooters here getting a FAC for their firearm
The judge, sadly, can use out-of-jurisdiction references, because he's the judge.Here we have double standards again the Judge/RTE can quote any legal case or situation to get their point across but the Irish shooter cant. HmmmmMac Gunner wrote: »Sparks, reference was made that no pistols are available in the UK. Yes they are,12" pistols havent been used in crime in the uk.How does anyone know unless one gets discovered by the UK police.the point remains that for the criminal to rob one of these 12" revolvers and say its no use is patently wrong as the criminal will have no concerns in having the barrel reduced in lenght to suit his needs.bunny shooter wrote: »It's a ruger single six, still classified "Olympic" ?
Welcome to the club!I dont think so sparks. Is it ever a problem for anyone who puts in for a driving licence? No.
There is a new testing setup now going in where everything is standardised to ISO standards and so on, but that's still not free from the human element. Besides which, the driving test is still far more distributed than what you're proposing (running all the licences through the one office), because there are testing centers all over the country.Why cant we have the same system for firearms?
See, there's the problem for some. Having all the bits of the driving licence isn't popular. To be popular, you'd have to leave out the limits on what learners can drive, leave out the mandatory insurance and the road tax and the gardai traffic corps and the penalty points and the toll bridges and all that stuff. At which point, the question is why bother?Instead we have some supers who seem to be related to Rev.Paisley and cry NEVER, NEVER, NEVER while the super in the next county will sit down with the person and talk and maybe come to an meeting point.0