They were aching a bit by the end there alright Pat

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Looks like Sparks' fingers couldn't take the strain of vBlogging all day today as well. (I'd say they're worn to stumps from yesterday's efforts ) Looking forward to hearing about it later, especially the word from the workshops.

Well, the fingers were tired allright, but the main problem was that yesterday's blogging wasn't well appreciated by some (not, I want to say, by the DoJ who expressly said it was a grand idea, nor by the shooting associations nor by the Gardai), and I wasn't going to go along with sabotaging the conference so I didn't do the liveblogging thing today. I will note for posterity, mind you, that some people continued to bring out the laptops, so it felt somewhat petty on the day. However, on to more important things.


The initial talk was by Des Crofton, and the title should tell you a lot about both the talk and the last two days - From Conflict to Cooperation and about five years ago, I would have sold all my rifles and kit to have heard that speech. A brief look at the history from 72 to today, not to bash the gardai but to point out the things that went wrong so they can be avoided in future, and to point out how they've been fixed or are being fixed. The situation isn't perfect, and legislation never can be perfect, but we've made enormous strides and the right attitude now prevails. There are new demands on shooters as well as on the DoJ and Gardai - we need to be more professional, more business-like, and to an extent we need to be more organised in our efforts. The FCP panel members present were introduced to the floor and thanked for their efforts. There was a small bit on looking forward and how things are looking promising for a continued evolution towards a better state of affairs.

Then there was the HCAP talk, which gave a brief history of the Irish Deer Society from '68 on, a discussion on the .22/250 round (for those wondering, it will not be barred from use, nor will the IDS seek to bar it, because in practise, it's being abandoned wholesale anyway as people move to better rounds on their own).
It's anticipated that by 2010, all hunters on coillte land will have passed the HCAP test. (HCAP only applies to coillte land)
The development of the HCAP test was outlined, and a walkthrough of the stalker manual was given (I'm not a hunter so picking out the interesting bits here is something I'm no good at).
The range test was mentioned (grouping test at 100m prone - 3 shots inside a 100mm group; then 6 shots at a deer target, 2 from 100m prone, 2 from 60m kneeling, 2 from 40m standing, all must be in the kill area). Some photos of people doing the test in the midlands were shown. The standard of shooting seen in HCAP tests is increasing, and the presence of ranges like the MNSCI was cited as a big factor in that.
Between 2003 and 2006, the number of deer shot annually has risen from ~12,000 to ~20,000, but the numbers are still too low to manage the deer population properly.
To date, 600 have sat the HCAP test, some 300 have passed, but the pass rate is 75 to 80% (some of those sittings are obviously resittings) and the major cause of failure is people not studying the manual.
HCAP is judged to have been a success.


Then the Firearms Safety talk, and this was probably the least well received (though again, noone shouted or booed ). The presenter was from the National Crime Prevention Unit, who issue guidelines as advice to supers (they do not issue standards or rules, only advice as the super is the persona designata).
I think his initial statement, repeated a few times through the talk, that firearms are designed to kill didn't endear him to anyone. That was cited as the need to have controls in place.
The bulk of the responsibility for safety falls on the licenced firearms holder and while the vast majority are responsible, there are a minority of exceptions who create the need for controls.
There are four main threats to safety -
Accidental Shootings: Mostly these are caused by people leaving firearms accessible to non-shooters who pick them up and "play" with them and have accidental discharges as a result. This happens regardless of the background of the non-shooter involved.
Acts of Passion: Described as a row in a domestic situation where the protagonists would pick up a knife and stab their spouse - and if a firearm was easily accessible would use that as well.
Suicides - About 30 per year, and while it's not possible to prevent a determined person from committing suicide, the twin points were made that (1) it's usually not the licencee who commits suicide, and (2) in some cases it's the 18-year-old filled with angst over breaking up with his girl who shoots himself, whereas if he hadn't, he'd have been fine the next morning.
(As we put it to each other over coffee, the reason we've not been granted licences for our .375H&H rifles is that we might have been devestated when our teenage girlfriends leave us for younger men and might have shot ourselves, and therefore the Gardai are really just telling us that they love and treasure us by refusing certificates)
Burglary & Theft - ~350 cases per year, ~30 of which are from cars. Stolen guns are used in crime. Cabinets are only rarely broken into, most thefts are from outside the cabinet.
In the case of Driving, we have controls - licencing, insurance, roadworthyness checks, the rules of the road. We need similar controls for shooting, but only because of a careless minority.
"Measures must be consummerate with risk"
The liklihood of an event and the seriousness of the event must be considered.
The NCPU have issued guidelines to supers as advice, not rules.
These are:
The firearm has to be stored in a structurally sound building.
Gun cabinets must be used.
Firearms should never be left unattended.
Three categories for secure storage:
Category A (rifles to .22, shotguns)
- Gun Cabinet (not insisting on BS standard, just that it be fit for purpose), secured to a solid wall or floor and concealed if possible.
- The dwelling should be reasonably secure (good doors and windows).
Category B (fullbore rifles)
- Gun Cabinet as in category A
- Seperate storage area in the cabinet for ammunition
- Audible (not necessarily monitored) alarm on the dwelling
Category C (pistols and revolvers)
- Gun Cabinet as in category B
- External doors must be in good condition with 5 lever mortice locks or for patio doors, anti-lift devices.
- Alarm to EM5031 standard, monitored by a recognised monitoring centre
Also, if you have four or more firearms in a category, you must meet the standards of the next higher category (so 4 cat A firearms = you must meet the cat B conditions).
The NCPU is happy to see young people in the sport because they learn by example and we set a good example.
(Like I said, not the most well-received of talks, it was met with a measured but polite silence)

That was the last talk; there was a brief coffee break then we broke up into three groups for the workshops. I'll let others comment on the young people's workshop and the clubs&ranges workshop.

In the catch-all workshop ( ), several topics arose. Deer hunting was the initial topic, but not only do I have no expertise in this, Garreth Byrne feels he doesn't have any either and that it'd be better to have had the wildlife services people there (they did actually invite them it transpires, they just couldn't attend).

The One Man One Licence topic arose again, and again the response was that it looks logical (though apparently some EU states prefer our system) but we're bound by the '06 act and must finish implementing that before we could move on to OMOL. There are also serious IT difficulties (PULSE can't do OMOL right now it seems).

The idea of raising the muzzle energy threshold for airguns from the current 1 joule to the 12 ft-lb level of the UK or the 7-joule level of the German system was brought up, and again wasn't shot down - there's no perceived problem with things like paintball (and I made the point that paintball markers have twice the muzzle energy of an air rifle so if they're okay, we should be too, and I pointed out the problems of bringing in air rifles for competitions). However, while this is a possible thing that may happen (in, say, the Misc.Provisions Bill) it needs to be discussed at FCP level first. Des Crofton made the point that while this is definitely something we should be looking to do, practical limits on people may lead to the FCP having short-term, medium-term and long-term goals, and this may not make it to the short-term list.

Reloading was discussed at length, with good input from two boards.ie people who I'll let decloak themselves if they so wish There is some resistance here - however there is also dialog. The DoJ's position has been given in a document to the FCP to work with, and they will be working with it.

Importation of firearms by individuals came up - it's felt that the practise of getting your licence then importing your firearm yourself is too uncontrolled to continue. At least a form to fill out so the DoJ know where the firearm came in from into the system seems to be felt to be needed.

I raised (and it was raised again in the second workshop, and we mentioned it in private afterwards) the problem of definitions in the Act - some which aren't there at all (like target shooting and zeroing and the whole section 4A mess that comes from that) and some (like in the restricted SI, which apparently is going ahead) which conflict with the Act. The point was made that the legislation is such a twisty beast that if you fix one hole here, you could create six over there in another act, so while they'll definitely work on it, it might not be a quick fix.

And that was workshop three. The last question and answer session was abandoned because at this point we were well behind schedule, so GB closed up the meeting, thanking all who had made it happen, and the IPA chair also gave a closing address, and we went to lunch and that was that. Hopefully, we'll see this as having been the first such conference and we'll see it become an annual event, because it was a resounding success at what it set out to do.

patbundy wrote: »

its kinda quiet in here tonight lads

Well some of us are shattered