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A5 - Derry Dual Carraigeway

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    #452
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Kevwoody wrote: »
    I'm actually speechless......
    He's right in the sense that the A5 is outside our jurisdiction and a hard border/chaos in NI affects the utility of the A5 to people in Donegal.

    Would you prefer if money was spent on the A5 or N2/N14/Letterkenny relief road first? I'd prefer the latter. I'd rather we made our own bed before going next door to make our neighbours bed.


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    #453
    Kevwoody
    Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Kevwoody


    marno21 wrote:
    Would you prefer if money was spent on the A5 or N2/N14/Letterkenny relief road first? I'd prefer the latter. I'd rather we made our own bed before going next door to make our neighbours bed.


    I'd much rather the N2 and N14 upgraded first. It was the comments about there being no social benefit, and access being difficult I was referring to.


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    #454
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Kevwoody wrote: »
    I'd much rather the N2 and N14 upgraded first. It was the comments about there being no social benefit, and access being difficult I was referring to.

    Agreed. The N14 preferred route is out next week (along with the Ballybofey and Letterkenny relief routes) so hopefully it'll get to ABP on time


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    #455
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    A5 Newbuildings-Strabane could start by end of 2019

    https://www.derryjournal.com/news/vested-a5-land-given-back-but-dfi-hopeful-1-8820014


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    #456
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Wesley Johnston wrote:
    7 Apr 2019: The wheels are turning once again on the never-ending saga of the A5. Having conceded the legal challenge in November 2018, DFI now appear to be working towards approving the scheme for the third time, using the powers that senior civil servants now have to make certain decisions without a minister (now extended beyond March). To this end, they have launched a public consultation on an update to the Environmental Statement to take account of the passage of time since it was last consulted. It can be seen here, and people have until 17 May to respond if they wish to. Apart from being a required process, DFI are likely also attempting to make sure the scheme is immune to losing further legal challenges by being absolutely rigorous in every respect of their planning. It's likely that a senior civil servant will approve the scheme around the summer time with work then due to get underway on phase 1A in the autumn (on the Newbuildings to north of Strabane section). From past experience, another legal challenge would then be likely come a short time before work begins. However, DFI's hope will be that all their planning work means that the legal system would reject further challenges

    From Wesley Johnston's excellent website here: http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/a5omaghstrabane.html


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    #457
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Public consultation on EIS addendum running til the 21st.


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    #458
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Latest from Wesley Johnston
    21 Sep 2019: The tear-jerking saga that is the A5 continues to rumble glacially onwards. Five months ago another public consultation was carried out, due to an update to the Environmental Statement. The responses to this consultation seem to have been sufficient that DFI have announced that there will be another public inquiry. As far as I understand, this isn't a comprehensive public inquiry into the whole scheme (such as the inquiry that was held in 2011 and approved the scheme). This is a more limited inquiry into specific environmental issues. But it is likely to delay the project by several months. Last year we had expected that Phase 1A would commence on the ground this autumn, but it now seems that that will have to be delayed until mid 2020 - just in time for the next legal challenge, of course! There is a sense in which the scheme seems to be caught in an endless feedback loop - each delay to the scheme results in the environmental documents going out of date, which results in new documents being prepared, which leads to a new consultation, and then a legal challenge delays things more, to the point that the environmental documents go out of date again. This process has been going round and round since 2012. We have just passed the 12th anniversary of the Executive approving the project. To date I have written 24,000 words of updates on the A5 scheme, and work has yet to begin on the ground. (Apologies if this sounds a bit negative - perhaps I shouldn't update the site late at night.)

    http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/a5omaghstrabane.html


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    #459
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Draft document on reopening Stormont published tonight contains the following.

    The Government will deliver on its funding commitments to those projects, including a total of £75 million up to 2022 for the A5

    Looks like the money the Irish Government had planned to invest in the A5 which was delayed by the legal challenges is still on the table.

    It’s possible Newbuildings to Strabane could go ahead in 2020


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    #460
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Hopefully it gets moving, it would be transformative for the city of Derry and benefit many in Donegal too


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    #461
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Wesley Johnson/NI Roads wrote:
    27 Jan 2020: With Stormont finally being restored earlier this month, the New Decade New Deal makes explicit mention of this scheme. The British government's section merely lists the A5 as an example of the type of project that the new Executive could choose to fund, without committing anything to it. However the Irish government has committed in concrete terms to giving a total of £75m towards the scheme over the next three years. This mirrors the £125m that they have already paid over the past three years, bringing their total contribution up to £200m. Given that about £80m has been spent on the project so far, this means that the Irish government has essentially bankrolled the scheme up to this point. A new public inquiry, limited in scope to some updated environmental documents, is due to get underway on 18 February. In one of her first Written Answers, the new DFI Minister Nichola Mallon mirrored the DFI's stated position, saying "I am hopeful that first phase of this scheme, from New Buildings to north of Strabane (Phase 1A) could commence in late 2020 / early 2021 with completion in 2023." A new legal challenge by the Alternative A5 Alliance will, of course, have to be dealt with by the courts but DFI will be hopeful that their rigorous work over the past few years will protect the scheme from any further successful challenges.

    Excellent update as ever from Wesley Johnston @ http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/a5omaghstrabane.html


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    #462
    Nidgeweasel
    Registered Users Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭Nidgeweasel


    Wesley Johnson

    Updates
    10 Apr 2020: The latest public inquiry into the A5 scheme took place in March, starting on 11 March at the Strule Arts Centre. Unlike most public inquiries for roads, this one was carried out by the Planning Appeals Commission (PAC), the purpose being to ensure it was totally independent of DFI Roads. There was also a pre-inquiry meeting in February which was held to determine the structure of the inquiry. The new inquiry was necessary because of the delay caused by the most recent (2018) legal challenge, which DFI Roads conceded on a procedural point, which caused the environmental documents to go out of date. Since the next (practically inevitable) legal challenge will itself cause another delay, there sometimes seems to be no route out of this endless cycle. Although it was intended to just be an examination of the updated Environmental Statement, the PAC seem to have allowed the whole rationale for the scheme, including alternatives to the dual-carriageway, to be re-examined at the March Public Inquiry. According to the DFI Minister in March, the inquiry Inspector is now expecting to submit his report to DFI at the end of September 2020. DFI will take time to consider the recommendations of the inquiry and then issue their response a few months later, perhaps at the start of 2021. Assuming the inspector recommends the scheme proceed, this could allow construction to begin on Phase 1A in "Spring 2021". There will, presumably, be another legal challenge at that point so this probably won't happen in practice. DFI will be hoping that if there is another legal challenge then it will be dismissed quickly. Over the past couple months three of things have happened that do make the future of the scheme look a little shakier.

    Firstly, there was a landmark ruling in the UK's Court of Appeal in late February, where campaigners won a legal challenge to Heathrow Airport's proposed third runway. The grounds were that the plan did not take into account the Paris climate agreement, which seeks to limit global warming. The Paris agreement applies to Northern Ireland, so this would obviously make every large infrastructure scheme susceptible to legal challenge on the same grounds.

    Secondly, the global COVID-19 pandemic, and likely global depression, could result in the Irish government being forced to withdraw their funding for the A5 scheme, as they did nine years ago in the last recession.

    Thirdly, there have been suggestions from some quarters that the experience of the UK's current lockdown could result in a permanent shift by many workers to home-working, suppressing traffic levels for years to come. Even a drop of 25% would make a massive difference to traffic congestion. It is too early to say if this will happen, but if it does it might require the re-assessment of the rationale for each individual road scheme. All of these events could conceivably conspire to prevent the scheme going ahead at all. For now all we can do is await the outcome of the Public Inquiry in six months' time, and then wait to see the grounds of the next legal challenge.

    Last update from the Wesley Johnson blog as of 10 April. It's a painful project this.


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    #463
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There is one solution here.

    Stop this ludicrous situation of the Irish Government providing funding for this circus and focus all funding on the 18km of N14 to be upgraded and the 80km of N2/N33 to be upgraded. The Irish Government should not be upgrading elements of a route in a foreign jurisdiction whilst the other elements of the route within this country's borders are not up to scratch

    The length of the proposed A5 Western Transport Corridor is roughly the same as the length of Irish route to be upgraded. When the 98km of Irish route as above is done, then we can start funding the A5. Regardless, if there's a dual carraigeway from Letterkenny to Strabane and from Emyvale to Dublin it'll put political pressure on the NI Government and make the A5 look like a total shambles.


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    #464
    Liamalone
    Registered Users Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭Liamalone


    marno21 wrote: »
    There is one solution here.

    Stop this ludicrous situation of the Irish Government providing funding for this circus and focus all funding on the 18km of N14 to be upgraded and the 80km of N2/N33 to be upgraded. The Irish Government should not be upgrading elements of a route in a foreign jurisdiction whilst the other elements of the route within this country's borders are not up to scratch

    The length of the proposed A5 Western Transport Corridor is roughly the same as the length of Irish route to be upgraded. When the 98km of Irish route as above is done, then we can start funding the A5. Regardless, if there's a dual carraigeway from Letterkenny to Strabane and from Emyvale to Dublin it'll put political pressure on the NI Government and make the A5 look like a total shambles.

    So it's ludicrous, but alright in the long run lol


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    #465
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Liamalone wrote: »
    So it's ludicrous, but alright in the long run lol

    No problem funding the A5 when the two Irish routes that connect into the A5 are complete. A few years ago the plan was for a lengthy DC in NI to be sandwiched between two sections of narrow S2 with no plans to upgrade the S2 within this country, and the excuse for not upgrading the N2 and N14 was a shortage of cash.

    The feeder roads to the A5 in Ireland imo should be given priority. The A5 may be in a poor state but the N14 is the same.


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    #466
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    marno21 wrote: »
    Stop this ludicrous situation of the Irish Government providing funding for this circus and focus all funding on the 18km of N14 to be upgraded and the 80km of N2/N33 to be upgraded. The Irish Government should not be upgrading elements of a route in a foreign jurisdiction whilst the other elements of the route within this country's borders are not up to scratch

    Hear hear! While I do think we should keep the funding we promised for this single specific upgrade aside in some form or another (we made a commitment, and shouldn't back out as a matter of principle), Ireland should not otherwise be funding British roads - not after the whole Brexit thing.

    UK taxpayer pounds for UK roads, and we'll chip in gladly once our roads are up to scratch.


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    #467
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    Hear hear! While I do think we should keep the funding we promised for this single specific upgrade aside in some form or another (we made a commitment, and shouldn't back out as a matter of principle), Ireland should not otherwise be funding British roads - not after the whole Brexit thing.

    UK taxpayer pounds for UK roads, and we'll chip in gladly once our roads are up to scratch.

    For those of us from Donegal, but living in Dublin or vice versa, the A5 is the worst section of the journey between the two. It's mostly Irish taxpayers who get the benefit out of spending the funds on that part


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    #468
    Cee-Jay-Cee
    Registered Users Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    For those of us from Donegal, but living in Dublin or vice versa, the A5 is the worst section of the journey between the two. It's mostly Irish taxpayers who get the benefit out of spending the funds on that part

    I agree, its absolutely a horrendous piece of road. I remember when working in Dublin in the 90's that I couldn't wait to get to Augnacloy/Strabane so there was a decent road to make a bit of haste on now its the exact opposite. Its soul destroying having to travel on that road day or night. I have travelled from Letterkenny to Dublin through Sligo on a few occasions as I detest travelling on that road so much.


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    #469
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »
    I agree, its absolutely a horrendous piece of road. I remember when working in Dublin in the 90's that I couldn't wait to get to Augnacloy/Strabane so there was a decent road to make a bit of haste on now its the exact opposite. Its soul destroying having to travel on that road day or night. I have travelled from Letterkenny to Dublin through Sligo on a few occasions as I detest travelling on that road so much.

    Try going via Belfast sometime.
    You'll be pleasantly surprised.


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    #470
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Yeah, as I've said a few times on this thread, once the A6 upgrades are finished (and they're flying along), going via Belfast will be a significantly better option. I'd be curious to see how much that'll effect the business case for the A5/N2. Still need improvements for Derry to Letterkenny, of course.


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    #471
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,714 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There was a poster here in the past that absolutely flipped at the suggestion anyone would go A6, can't remember who but they possibly ended up thread banned. Or I could be getting confused with someone on SABRE

    I've done the A4/NI M1 to avoid roadworks on the N2 / the Culloville slog, or Google Maps suggesting Aughnacloy is in a mess and its surprisingly quick albeit a much longer road distance - nearly double actually.

    Maybe 20mins longer than getting a totally clear run at it but I seem to remember there was a time when there were roadworks between Emyvale and Monaghan, *and* around Aughnacloy *and* on the N53 at the same time; all with stop/go systems.


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    #472
    ncounties
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ncounties


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    Ireland should not otherwise be funding British roads...

    British roads? UK roads fine, but using the term British is antagonistic, and factually incorrect. Unless you prefer to use the term "British Isles".

    Regarding the points from the other posters, I am from Derry originally (and currently stuck WFH there), but live in Dublin, and I always drive via Belfast. Going this way, two thirds of the route at present is Dual Carriageway, versus less than a third when using the M1, N2, A5. The one time I did drive that route, it was infuriating.

    I equally don't understand the point of upgrading the A5, when the N2 will remain sub-par. It would seem better for the Southern Government to invest in the N2/N53, and leave the Northern section to Stormont.

    Though I would much prefer funds be spent on getting the A6 to full dual carriageway standard, and the A5 funding be spent on re-introducing rail from Derry to Portadown or Armagh and on to Newry. Unfortunately that's never going to happen.


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    #473
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    ncounties wrote: »
    British roads? UK roads fine, but using the term British is antagonistic, and factually incorrect. Unless you prefer to use the term "British Isles".

    Regarding the points from the other posters, I am from Derry originally (and currently stuck WFH there), but live in Dublin, and I always drive via Belfast. Going this way, two thirds of the route at present is Dual Carriageway, versus less than a third when using the M1, N2, A5. The one time I did drive that route, it was infuriating.

    I equally don't understand the point of upgrading the A5, when the N2 will remain sub-par. It would seem better for the Southern Government to invest in the N2/N53, and leave the Northern section to Stormont.

    Though I would much prefer funds be spent on getting the A6 to full dual carriageway standard, and the A5 funding be spent on re-introducing rail from Derry to Portadown or Armagh and on to Newry. Unfortunately that's never going to happen.

    Sorry, I don't mean to be antagonistic. I don't think I was incorrect, though. I was using "British" in the (common) political sense, not the strict geographic sense.

    I fully agree with your comment about upgrading the N2 as well, and think that should definitely be a priority. However, solely from a funding standpoint, the Irish government did promise to put some money towards upgrading the A5, and I think we should meet that commitment even though the road is in another jurisdiction. I don't think we should make any more though until our roads are up to scratch.

    Not sure I'm on board with rail. I just don't think it's ever going to be a big thing again on this island. Electric and self-driving cars, vans and trucks are coming, and will make the roads an even more efficient and less-polluting method of transportation than ever before. On an island as sparsely populated as Ireland, rail will simply not be able to compete.


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    #474
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    Hear hear! While I do think we should keep the funding we promised for this single specific upgrade aside in some form or another (we made a commitment, and shouldn't back out as a matter of principle), Ireland should not otherwise be funding British roads - not after the whole Brexit thing.

    UK taxpayer pounds for UK roads, and we'll chip in gladly once our roads are up to scratch.

    Just don't ask how Irish motorways were funded.....
    You might not like the answer


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    #475
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Would it be better/cheaper from an NI POV to link the N2 to the A6 along the A29 corridor which would be shorter than the A5 route? I don’t know if the terrain would allow for it. From a network POV, it would be good having a central spine road west of Lough Neagh linking to the M1 and M2/M22 going east and the A6 going west. Its not so good from an ROI POV as it is a less direct route to Donegal but the Newbuildings to Strabane section of A5 would tie it into the National Road network in Donegal. The A5 is going nowhere fast and the Irish government might be happy for it, and their funding commitment to it, to be dropped.


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    #476
    nordydan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭nordydan


    Rodin wrote: »
    Just don't ask how Irish motorways were funded.....
    You might not like the answer

    Ah yes. How ironic...


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    #477
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Would it be better/cheaper from an NI POV to link the N2 to the A6 along the A29 corridor which would be shorter than the A5 route? I don’t know if the terrain would allow for it. From a network POV, it would be good having a central spine road west of Lough Neagh linking to the M1 and M2/M22 going east and the A6 going west. Its not so good from an ROI POV as it is a less direct route to Donegal but the Newbuildings to Strabane section of A5 would tie it into the National Road network in Donegal. The A5 is going nowhere fast and the Irish government might be happy for it, and their funding commitment to it, to be dropped.

    I think there's probably a combination of population density and existing road catchment that makes an A29 upgrade less attractive. Omagh and Strabane are rather large towns that would benefit from the A6, whereas only really Cookstown would benefit from an A29 upgrade. Even then the benefits for Cookstown are fairly negligible given how close it is to major routes already.

    So it's the difference between a route that connects some large towns and provides major end-to-end destinations, or a route that connects one large town and joins two motorways together.

    There's a long planned Cookstown bypass, but it's essentially single carriageway.


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    #478
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,714 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Rodin wrote: »
    Just don't ask how Irish motorways were funded.....
    You might not like the answer

    Most of them were funded by borrowing - the EU money era funded single carriageways in the main.


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    #479
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    Rodin wrote: »
    Just don't ask how Irish motorways were funded.....
    You might not like the answer

    PPPs and borrowing? To clarify, I have no problem with some Irish money going to infrastructure elsewhere in the EU - we're part of the club, and it's in our interests to build it up - but the UK specifically rejected the idea that any British money should ever be spent outside the UK. It was one of the big drivers of Brexit. In this case, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

    And, just to reiterate, I still think we should pay that 75 million pounds towards the A5 regardless of Brexit. We made that commitment and should stick to it. However, we should otherwise leave the UK to its own devices, as it wishes.

    Besides, at this rate, there never will be an upgraded A5, so we should focus on the N2 and N14 instead.


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    #480
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I think there's probably a combination of population density and existing road catchment that makes an A29 upgrade less attractive. Omagh and Strabane are rather large towns that would benefit from the A6, whereas only really Cookstown would benefit from an A29 upgrade. Even then the benefits for Cookstown are fairly negligible given how close it is to major routes already.

    So it's the difference between a route that connects some large towns and provides major end-to-end destinations, or a route that connects one large town and joins two motorways together.

    There's a long planned Cookstown bypass, but it's essentially single carriageway.

    If a route from the end of the current Dungiven project to a point west of Magherafelt and down to Aughnacloy would be less controversial than the current A5 scheme than I think it would be worth considering. The A5 is so besieged by problems it may never happen, another route may well have the same opposition but an alternative is worth considering. It would bring Derry closer to both Dublin and Belfast. Dungiven to Aughnacloy would be roughly the same length as the A5 scheme but one third of it is to be delivered anyway as part of the A6 corridor. This side of the border it would mean a more direct link from Manorcunningham to Derry would be needed, rather than a road to Strabane.


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    #481
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    If a route from the end of the current Dungiven project to a point west of Magherafelt and down to Aughnacloy would be less controversial than the current A5 scheme than I think it would be worth considering. The A5 is so besieged by problems it may never happen, another route may well have the same opposition but an alternative is worth considering. It would bring Derry closer to both Dublin and Belfast. Dungiven to Aughnacloy would be roughly the same length as the A5 scheme but one third of it is to be delivered anyway as part of the A6 corridor. This side of the border it would mean a more direct link from Manorcunningham to Derry would be needed, rather than a road to Strabane.

    To be honest, with the changing environment for roads projects, they're better off sticking with the A5 project as that has been heavily analysed at this point, and survived through several legal challenges. The problem with it has been mostly the lack of an Assembly for the last few years, and the issue of the legal challenges causing the EIS to constantly expire.

    I think this is one of the last major roads projects on the island that actually makes proper sense, even as I am someone who is generally against more roads infrastructure. So I hope some legislative effort can be weighed to get it to happen.


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